Death_Delirium 7 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I am going to be selling a gun on gunbroker and I need to know what the rules on shipping a gun are. I know that it can only be shipped to an FFL, but do I also need to have an FFL send it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Death_Delirium 7 Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Yes. Thank you. Edit: O.K., so as I was about to list the item I saw a link on gunbroker that talked about shipping options and it says that a non-FFL holder can ship a gun to FFL holder. Now I am confused, is there something I am missing? Edited October 28, 2009 by Death_Delirium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yes. Thank you. Edit: O.K., so as I was about to list the item I saw a link on gunbroker that talked about shipping options and it says that a non-FFL holder can ship a gun to FFL holder. Now I am confused, is there something I am missing? Only to have work done on a gun by the manufacturer or his agent. I know of no way for a private citizen to ship firearms otherwise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Death_Delirium 7 Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) Yes. Thank you. Edit: O.K., so as I was about to list the item I saw a link on gunbroker that talked about shipping options and it says that a non-FFL holder can ship a gun to FFL holder. Now I am confused, is there something I am missing? Only to have work done on a gun by the manufacturer or his agent. I know of no way for a private citizen to ship firearms otherwise. I dont want to sound like I am arguing because I am by no means an expert on the matter, but this is what their site has to say. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shipping Legalities Federal Law requires that all modern firearms be shipped to a holder of a valid Federal Firearms License (FFL) only. The recipient must have an FFL; however the sender is not required to have one. Any person who is legally allowed to own a firearm is legally allowed to ship it to an FFL holder for any legal purpose (including sale or resale). Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says: (B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier? A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31] B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U. S. Postal Service? A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer any firearm to a nonlicensed resident of another state. The Postal Service recommends that longguns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. 'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before 1898, or a replica thereof. The exact ATF definition of an antique firearm is: Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and ( any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. Knives, air guns, accessories, and most gun parts need not be shipped to an FFL holder. We say most gun parts because each firearm contains at least one part that the ATF considers a firearm. This part is typically the part that contains the serial number. This part must be treated as a complete firearm when shipping the item. Ammunition must be clearly identified as 'Small Arms Ammunition' on the outside of the box. Some shippers treat ammunition as dangerous or hazardous materials. The section of the US Code that governs modern firearms is called Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition (CFA). This code is available online at: http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/27cfr_part478.pdf When in doubt, we suggest arranging for transfer through a licensed dealer. Violation of the CFA is a felony and penalties for violation of it are severe. Federal and State Law Resources The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) has a very comprehensive site containing information about the various Federal and state laws regulating firearms. Please refer to the ATF information for legal questions regarding firearms. ATF Home page: http://www.atf.gov ATF Compilation of the various state laws: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/statelaws/22edition.htm ATF Firearms Division Main Page: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm Shipment by Unlicensed Persons Any shipper who does not have a Federal Firearms License (FFL) is considered to be an 'unlicensed person'. This section contains information on how unlicensed persons can ship firearms. If you have an FFL, please skip to the next section for shipping suggestions. The most important thing to know is that you must only ship guns to a licensed dealer. If the buyer is not a licensed dealer, he will have to make arrangements to ship the item to a dealer in his state. Before you ship a gun, the buyer must fax or mail you a copy of the dealer's signed FFL license. You can only ship the gun to the address on the license. You must inform the carrier that the package contains a firearm. Of course, the firearm cannot be shipped loaded; ammunition may not be shipped in the same box. You should take the copy of the signed FFL with you when you take the item to be shipped in case the shipper wishes to see it. Notes on specific shippers: US Mail: An unlicensed person can ship a rifle or shotgun by US Mail. Unlicensed persons cannot ship a handgun by US Mail. Postal regulations allow the Post Office to open your package for inspection. Ammunition cannot be shipped by US Mail. You can search the US Post Offer Postal Explorer site for specific USPS regulations regarding firearms and ammunition. FedEx: FedEx will only ship firearms via their Priority Overnight service. Ammunition must be shipped as dangerous goods. FedEx Ground: FedEx Ground will transport and deliver firearms (excluding handguns) as defined by the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, between areas served in the U.S. Ammunition must be shipped as dangerous goods. UPS: UPS will accept handgun shipments by Next Day Air only. Rifles and shotguns can be shipped by UPS ground service. UPS will accept shipments of ammunition. Most other shippers will no longer accept firearm shipments. Airborne and Roadway have specifically prohibited firearm shipments. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From what I gather from that info it does say that a non-licensed person can ship to a FFL holder. However if you know something contrary to that I am all ears because I dont want to accidentally break the law. Edited October 28, 2009 by Death_Delirium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Krom 36 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Yeah, I just sold and shipped one to another forum member and I'm not an FFL. Like it was posted above I just had to send it to an FFL. I declared my shipment to UPS and showed them a copy of the FFL license where it was going and insured it and it was good to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I am going to be selling a gun on gunbroker and I need to know what the rules on shipping a gun are. I know that it can only be shipped to an FFL, but do I also need to have an FFL send it? Yes. Azrial is incorrect. You DO NOT need to have an FFL to ship a firearm to any legal recipient. Shipping a gun - Who, what, where, how and why - Saiga-12.com <--- it's even a sticky (why don't folks read them?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The_Vigilante 14 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 However there are some FFL's that won't accept a shipment from a non-FFL holder. So you need to determine whether the FFL of your buyer will accept a shipment from a non-FFL holder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tover26 18 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Wow, I had an experience with this when I bought an AK off gunbroker a few month's ago. The seller, a private citizen tried to send the gun directly to me. I got him in touch with my FFL and then my FFL had to edumacate the guy, who was about to ship the gun directly to the FFL with no proof or anything. The rules, as far as I can tell, that make this go well. - Be ready to have an FFL fax you their FFL. You should keep this along with the GB documents to prove you sold it and shipped it to the FFL. - Be ready to put a copy of your driver's license or some other identifying document on the very top of the gun so that it's the very first thing the FFL sees when they open the box along with the GB auction info showing that private citizen bought it from you. - This last part is just my 2 cents, but you'll probably score some points with the buyer if you ship non-firearm accessories separately... like scope, sling, etc. My AK had a bunch of mags with it and a decent scope that all got held up in the holding period. After that, you should be good to go, except for the shipping of the gun... which S12 forum has a sticky thread about that. Hope you get a killer deal. Oh, don't ship until the money clears. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 However there are some FFL's that won't accept a shipment from a non-FFL holder. So you need to determine whether the FFL of your buyer will accept a shipment from a non-FFL holder. That is a business decision on their part, and has nothing to do with the law. I look at it like this: With policies like that, the FFL holder wants to do less business. Wow, I had an experience with this when I bought an AK off gunbroker a few month's ago. The seller, a private citizen tried to send the gun directly to me. I got him in touch with my FFL and then my FFL had to edumacate the guy, who was about to ship the gun directly to the FFL with no proof or anything. The rules, as far as I can tell, that make this go well. - Be ready to have an FFL fax you their FFL. You should keep this along with the GB documents to prove you sold it and shipped it to the FFL. - Be ready to put a copy of your driver's license or some other identifying document on the very top of the gun so that it's the very first thing the FFL sees when they open the box along with the GB auction info showing that private citizen bought it from you. - This last part is just my 2 cents, but you'll probably score some points with the buyer if you ship non-firearm accessories separately... like scope, sling, etc. My AK had a bunch of mags with it and a decent scope that all got held up in the holding period. After that, you should be good to go, except for the shipping of the gun... which S12 forum has a sticky thread about that. Hope you get a killer deal. Oh, don't ship until the money clears. If you read the Shipping a gun - Who, what, where how and why - Saiga-12.com sticky, it goes into this with exactly what you need to ship a gun legally (and if you're not a licensed firearms dealer, you DON'T need a copy of an FFL at all). Shipping the extras separate? Sure. Especially if you (or the buyer) don't know the FFL well. Sorry to say, but sometimes those "desirable extras" just "fell out of the box in transit" . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I ran into an FFL that I shipped to that required me to send MY FFL. I had my transfer dealer send a copy of his to him. The receiving dealer was fine with that, but he stated he needed an "FFL of Origination". Same state sales can be done person to person (that is a private sale or as the Brady Bunch calls it "The Gun Show Loophole"), but if the person is from another state, you have to have an FFL dealer in the buyer's state receive the firearm and do the transfer. If you do it person to person, YOU assume the liability that the buyer is not a felon and can legally own a firearm (and is also from your state). The easiest way to check is a Concealed Weapons Permit. Otherwise, I would rather lose $25 off the sale and have an FFL dealer do the transaction to cover my ass instead of ending up in jail! At the Big Reno Show, there are reports of multiple ATF sting operations trying to find sellers willing to sell to out of state buyers person-to-person. Call me paranoid, but I will not sell to anyone other than my Dad and Brother without going through an FFL transfer dealer. If the firearm is recovered at a crime, I don't want to be Suspect Numero Uno! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I ran into an FFL that I shipped to that required me to send MY FFL. I had my transfer dealer send a copy of his to him. The receiving dealer was fine with that, but he stated he needed an "FFL of Origination". Which was a business decision on his part - not to deal with non-licensed individuals. Same state sales can be done person to person (that is a private sale or as the Brady Bunch calls it "The Gun Show Loophole"), but if the person is from another state, you have to have an FFL dealer in the buyer's state receive the firearm and do the transfer. No. This is partially incorrect. You can sell all the guns you want to out of state residents, you just have to follow the law. Long guns: must go through FFL (in your state or theirs). I just sold a Yugo SKS to a Floridian who picked it up here in person (we met at my FFL's office, everyone did their paperwork and all was copacetic). Handguns: must be sent to their local FFL holder. If you do it person to person, YOU assume the liability that the buyer is not a felon and can legally own a firearm (and is also from your state). The easiest way to check is a Concealed Weapons Permit. Otherwise, I would rather lose $25 off the sale and have an FFL dealer do the transaction to cover my ass instead of ending up in jail! At the Big Reno Show, there are reports of multiple ATF sting operations trying to find sellers willing to sell to out of state buyers person-to-person. All you are legally required to do is ask them if they're legally able to own firearms. Anything else is above and beyond what is legally called for. I look at a Texas drivers license as proof of residency (if I don't know the person), not to write all the info down. Call me paranoid, but I will not sell to anyone other than my Dad and Brother without going through an FFL transfer dealer. If the firearm is recovered at a crime, I don't want to be Suspect Numero Uno! Yes, you are paranoid Most of what you've written is "the law according to BuffetDestroyer", and way way beyond the requirements of the actual law. Folks, I compiled the "Shipping guns sticky" to answer these commonly asked questions. It has links to the actual Federal laws in question. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to these threads as a lot of folks just spew out "their own laws, like they think it should be" instead of actual laws. Edited October 28, 2009 by nalioth 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Amen....+1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I ran into an FFL that I shipped to that required me to send MY FFL. I had my transfer dealer send a copy of his to him. The receiving dealer was fine with that, but he stated he needed an "FFL of Origination". Which was a business decision on his part - not to deal with non-licensed individuals. Same state sales can be done person to person (that is a private sale or as the Brady Bunch calls it "The Gun Show Loophole"), but if the person is from another state, you have to have an FFL dealer in the buyer's state receive the firearm and do the transfer. No. This is partially incorrect. You can sell all the guns you want to out of state residents, you just have to follow the law. Long guns: must go through FFL (in your state or theirs). I just sold a Yugo SKS to a Floridian who picked it up here in person (we met at my FFL's office, everyone did their paperwork and all was copacetic). Handguns: must be sent to their local FFL holder. If you do it person to person, YOU assume the liability that the buyer is not a felon and can legally own a firearm (and is also from your state). The easiest way to check is a Concealed Weapons Permit. Otherwise, I would rather lose $25 off the sale and have an FFL dealer do the transaction to cover my ass instead of ending up in jail! At the Big Reno Show, there are reports of multiple ATF sting operations trying to find sellers willing to sell to out of state buyers person-to-person. All you are legally required to do is ask them if they're legally able to own firearms. Anything else is above and beyond what is legally called for. I look at a Texas drivers license as proof of residency (if I don't know the person), not to write all the info down. Call me paranoid, but I will not sell to anyone other than my Dad and Brother without going through an FFL transfer dealer. If the firearm is recovered at a crime, I don't want to be Suspect Numero Uno! Yes, you are paranoid Most of what you've written is "the law according to BuffetDestroyer", and way way beyond the requirements of the actual law. Folks, I compiled the "Shipping guns sticky" to answer these commonly asked questions. It has links to the actual Federal laws in question. We are our own worst enemy when it comes to these threads as a lot of folks just spew out "their own laws, like they think it should be" instead of actual laws. NALIOTH HAS SPOKEN! All Hail the Great NALIOTH! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 (edited) I am going to be selling a gun on gunbroker and I need to know what the rules on shipping a gun are. I know that it can only be shipped to an FFL, but do I also need to have an FFL send it? Yes. Azrial is incorrect. You DO NOT need to have an FFL to ship a firearm to any legal recipient. ... Well live and learn. My understanding on the matter is that the only way a private citizen could ship at firearm is back to the manufacturer for repairs. I stand corrected. Edited October 28, 2009 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 It may be legal to "just ask" as all-knowing Nalioth posted. But how are you going to "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt in court that you "asked" unless you have a tape recorder or some other evidence if it comes into question? A CCW number or photocopy is a lot easier to prove that you didn't "knowingly" sell to a felon. Do as you wish, but it isn't that fucking hard to just have an FFL do the transfer for $25 and eliminate potential liability. Post-Apocalyptic (a member on our board) is dealing with getting arrested for something that was legal in his own home and it is costing him considerably in proving that he did nothing wrong! You can do the bare legal minimum, but my suggestion (not a statement of FACT - a suggestion - and not the "law according to BuffetDestroyer") is to ensure that you can prove that you did it legally no matter what the minimum may be. Felons will likely lie to you if you ask them (since they have no problem breaking other rules), and if you transfer to a felon, you are likely to have problems if the firearm can be traced back to you. I will anxiously await the Omnipotent Nalioth's (who has his PM option off) discrediting each item of my post now... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Death_Delirium 7 Posted October 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Thank you for all the replies guys, you have all been helpful. Nalioth, I didnt see the sticky until after my last post. Now that I read it things are clearer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 It may be legal to "just ask" as all-knowing Nalioth posted. But how are you going to "prove" beyond a reasonable doubt in court that you "asked" unless you have a tape recorder or some other evidence if it comes into question? A CCW number or photocopy is a lot easier to prove that you didn't "knowingly" sell to a felon. Do as you wish, but it isn't that fucking hard to just have an FFL do the transfer for $25 and eliminate potential liability. Post-Apocalyptic (a member on our board) is dealing with getting arrested for something that was legal in his own home and it is costing him considerably in proving that he did nothing wrong! You can do the bare legal minimum, but my suggestion (not a statement of FACT - a suggestion - and not the "law according to BuffetDestroyer") is to ensure that you can prove that you did it legally no matter what the minimum may be. Felons will likely lie to you if you ask them (since they have no problem breaking other rules), and if you transfer to a felon, you are likely to have problems if the firearm can be traced back to you. I will anxiously await the Omnipotent Nalioth's (who has his PM option off) discrediting each item of my post now... Honestly, quit making it more complicated then it is. The Prosecution has to prove your felonious intent, not the opposite. There is no liability in this matter, and pretending that there is is harmful to us all. Quit it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 I will anxiously await the Omnipotent Nalioth's (who has his PM option off) discrediting each item of my post now... I'm not omnipotent. The "email me" option works fine. Got other points of contact in my signature, if you don't like email. I haven't said one word about not going above and beyond what the law requires. I have spoken up on folks expressing "laws" that aren't on the books. As far as the other stuff, it all boils down to "personal responsibility" and how it has slowly been eroding away in Americans. Nobody wants to take responsibility for their own actions (asking the buyer if they're restricted) any more - they want 'big brother' to take care of it for them (seeing an CCW or Xferring via an FFL as a condition of sale). Post-Apocalyptic got the shaft and I hope he sues the hell out of 'em when he gets his stuff back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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