Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Personally I don't like the racket a pump makes, racking that round is a dead give away on your position but then perhaps thats a small matter. The Moss is going to be cheaper and I dont see any reliability issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Yeah, that was my question, how reliable an auto is compared to a pump? Never had a pump myself, just an auto once. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 The pump may actually be more reliable by some standards but having to rack each round and no easy reload doesnt make me happy. Call it a wash. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Well, I agree on the scare argument that it would be scary to hear one in a dark ally but unless it's already cocked, like you said, it'll give you away. Also, not sure I understand why (actually, I DON'T) but why would a pump be more reliable when it DOES have something you have to slide back and forth? Also, isn't it easier to keep an auto on target rather than having to pump the gun? George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragon 0 Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Dear George, My first thought is you are an idiot. My next thought is you are serious. Leaving the first thought, 308 will take any game (for food) and is an excellent defense round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Well, I appreciate the compliment. Not sure why I warranted the idiot part but, oh well.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Feed and eject failures on the Saiga shotguns seem to be the biggest issue. For comparison think of a bolt action rifle verses a auto loading rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Alright, so is this a better choice? http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=32 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 Dont get me wrong the reliability issues in auto loaders are minor. Once the S12 is dialed in and you know what ammo works best I havent seen many complaints. There is a lot to be said for magazine fed shotguns and I know nothing about the Mossy auto loader. If you want near fool proof reliability get a coach gun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted November 22, 2009 Report Share Posted November 22, 2009 (edited) George, Welcome to the debate. Internet forums have a multitude of ideas to bear, and I'll pass along another very good possibility to you. 6.8mm SPC II made by Robinson Arms, (or other). When loaded to the hotter SPC II specs it drives a .277 bullet up-wards of 3000 fps+ http://robarm.com is a place to see this rifle. It comes in 5.56, 7.62 x 39 or the 6.8 SPCII chamber. Earlier 6.8 SPC chambers did not have sufficient throat lead to alleviate higher pressures, nor did the have a more "relaxed" rate of twist in the barrel. Now they are coming out with the newer specs and barrels twists of 1:10, 1:11, 1: 11.25, 1:12, and 1:13. All depends on what one is interested in, bench rest or hunting. The 6.8 x 43 round is mid way between the 5.56 NATO and the 7.62 x 51 (223 to .308). It has a lot more terminal energy than the 5.56, but not as much as the .308. However, you can really carry a lot more ammunition in 6.8 x 43 than you can in .308 Winchester. This newer chamber opens up the throat lead from the 0.050" (as SAAMI has it) to 0.100" that greatly improves the ability to handle some of the hotter tactical loads of the 6.8 SPC II. Robinson Arms rifles are also patterned after the very reliable Kalashnikov action. They are more expensive than the Saiga, but they do come well equipped with some of the things you want to have on a battle rifle. I'm not a salesman for the Robinson Arms, nor am I an owner of one, but that might change in the near future. I'm merely pointing out some other possibilities, of a choice other than the 5.56 NATO (.223 Remington) or the 7.62 x 51 NATO (.308 Winchester). This link explains a lot about the 6.8 SPC aka 6.8 x 43 SPC and it's recent changes. http://www.snipershi...=1451958&page=1 There are some other possible rounds that are ballistically superior for long range shooting, and that would be the 6.5 Grendel, the 6.5 Creedmoor and the .260 Remington. Theses latter offer excellent terminal velocity, great kinetic energy and excellent accuracy at greater distances. 6.5 Creedmoor and 260 Remington are based on the .308 Winchester brass, where the 6.5 Grendel is based off the .220 Russian brass as a parent.... which is the parent case also for the 7.62 x 39 Soviet. BTW you can fire form 7.62 x 39 brass into usable brass for the 6.5 Grendel. Enjoy your search! Edited November 22, 2009 by AKsarben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) Rhodes, yeah, I coach gun would be reliable but not enough rounds. AKsarben, here's one thing I don't like about the 6.8 round and it would be availability. In a shtf scenario, one should have enough ammo but what if you get separated from your ammo for a reason? Again, I don't think and HOPE that this will ever happen but that IS the whole purpose of me being here as I really don't need the gun for any other reason. However, I WILL look into the caliber. That's the whole purpose of being here, to check out other people's views. By the way, how much would one of those Robinsons cost? The standard length rifle for instance? Thanks George Edited November 23, 2009 by guiri Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=147309569 about $1800.00 But, one thing to keep in mind, this rifle IS modular, meaning you can change out calibers from 6.8 to 5.56 NATO to 7.62 x 39 and it takes about 2 mintues to chage, and maybe less if you are practiced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
michael_glenning 0 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 George, SHTF you will wish you had one of these. http://www.amazon.com/Spade-Shovel-Industrial-Demolition-Hammer/dp/B002VMZBFY/ref=pd_cp_hi_ and one of these. http://www.tractorsupply.com/leg-style-storage-tank-325-gal--2137463 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Bucky, that's right or I can adopt a few thousand Rottweilers and train them well. God knows there are enough of them up for adoption Over 300 000 animals up for adoption. Up from around 160 000 when I looked for my last dog around 3-4 years ago http://www.petfinder.com/index.html People suck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 AKsarben, lots of money for a gun. Mind you, I DO believe in paying for what you really want so that won't be a problem IF that's what I really want. I had set a rough limit of 1500 but hey, shit never works out like that does it? It's more a question of how much do I WANT to spend and WHICH gun to buy. Again, not sure what to get but there's time. I prolly won't have the money until late spring or summer (next year) so there's plenty of time and RenegadeBuck has kindly offered to show me his guns before I buy which is the best scenario possible as I get to handle and shoot the guns before making a decision and unlike a seller, I'm sure I'll get advice that is aimed to help me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Yes, that is very good of RenegadeBuck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 I thought so That's the cool thing with some of these forums. There are some very cool people online. People offering advice, to help you and all that and I remember when I used to hang out in this truck forum before I bought it (of course, I was there for advice) this dude posted that he had to sell his truck to make the house payments 'cause he had two kids and wanted to know how much to try to get for it and within one day he had gotten over 3 grand in donations and loans from people in the forum. That is bitchin' cool do yeah, I'm really thankful for the offer and for the cool people in the forums, any forum. Of course, there are a lot of assholes too that feel 'cause it's "anonymous" they can say anything they want but that's part of the experience I guess. By the way, are there no problems with heavy loads in semi automatic carbines like the one you suggested or anyone else for that matter? You know, with the action or anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 By the way, for those who don't know this forum, there's a great flashlight forum and these people are super knowledgeable but beware, it WILL most likely lead to you spending a small fortune in flashlights. You have been warned. http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/portal/index.php Actually, this one has a little more freedom of speech so to speak but it's not as busy as the first one.. http://flashlightnews.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=5c090c3df41a60059ae20c57a8269873& Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darth AkSarBen 20 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 I've shot 180 gr factory with no problems with the .308. Although it will back up a bit more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 ..but function wise, no problems? How 'bout the 6.8? Any ideas? My main goal would be hunting or defense. I'm not interested in target shooting or competing and although I may get all interested and start shooting a lot, I kinda doubt it. Shooting at the range is not my thing. It's kinda boring as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I have shot at the range and stuff but nah, not that interested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 There just is no one rifle or round, honestly if things ever did go south your most used rifle would be a 22LR. That rifle will cheaply and quietly feed you and protect you from less determined predators. Thats why I own two with several k of 22LR HP ammo and some subsonic for those quiet hunts. But no way I would not have a 308 ready to go also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 (edited) I'm sure that's true but the question was if I could take ONE. Sure, I might buy some more stuff but I want ONE I can just snatch with me in case something happens and know it'll do the job. I know you'll make dog meat out of anything small you shoot with large caliber but again, one rifle only. I may have to resort to eating fat people...there should be something left when you whack'em with a 308 Hell, it'll just leave a nice hole for the marinade for when you roast them over the fire. Am I going to hell for this? Edited November 23, 2009 by guiri Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Hunting two legged prey especially well fed ones most likely will prove to be suicidal. Could there be a reason they are well fed...stick to dumb 4 legged stuff that cant shoot you first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted November 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Hehehe, yeah, that might be a good idea plus, less fat in your diet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tophatjones 0 Posted December 1, 2009 Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Since it sounds like you're not really going to shoot at the range often, a 16" barreled Ar15 in 5.56mm with a .22 conversion kit may be the right choice for you. Realistically, it would be difficult to just pick up and do well with a 308 or even a lightweight 7.62 Soviet rifle without practice and dedication. Shooting well requires tremendous skill, which comes with practice, and the larger the caliber, the more practice is needed to master the round. If you can get out to the range at least once a month with the right mindset to practice, I'd believe you can do well with any rifle. If you are going to the range once a year, the ergonomics of the AR, and the lightweight caliber will give you the best chances to succeed with minimal amount of practice. Just an opinion of an average Joe. YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted December 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2009 Well jones, that's what I'm here for, people's opinions. Thanks GEorge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
guiri 4 Posted December 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Well guys, I am now the proud owner of a brand new Polish underfolder in 7.62x39 It's funny how different things look online when you see pics and then in real life. I never liked the look of the wood front end on the AK and I think the underfolder stock looked real shitty but I like both. The folding stock was very comfy for me and although I will be putting some kind of quad rail in front for flashlights and stuff, I'm surprised I liked the way it looks. I was also surprised to find the rifle so comfy. I was always more inclined to get the AK vs the AR because of the reliability but I was afraid that I wouldn't like it when I got hold of one and I had heard about the AR being more ergonomical and so on but again, the AK was very comfy for me. The dude that I bought it from or rather, traded with, also bought a Romanian AK with regular/polymer stock which I didn't like, he brought an AR which did not fit me at all and a Cetme in 308. Of all, I liked the AK the best which I AM very happy for because I felt that it was the one I should get. He also brought a custom .50 upper with an AR lower which was very cool and frankly, I was surprised at how light it was. I literally could have hand held it (which I tried) and shot it. Dunno about recoil when standing up but I'm saying weight wise. So, I want thank everyone for their input and help and I'll be back for questions about other stuff like accessories and so on. I'll need a fore end and sling and things and maybe a few more mags and I will be getting a handgun and a shotgun at some point. So, I will be back online to ask questions possibly about a Saiga shotgun George Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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