New Member Asking What Do I Need to Do to Create a Great CA-Legal Saig

[Redwood 3]

Hello Everyone -

 

I just became interested in purchasing a Saiga in 7.62x39, and thought I would come here to ask the experts a few questions.

 

I live in California, so I will be purchasing the sporter version of the rifle. My question is what do I need to buy and do in terms of an aftermarket trigger group, better stock and iron sights etc etc to make this rifle as accurate and reliable as it can be? I want the option of mounting optics and a light on the rifle so any advice you have on scope mounts and accessory rails will be much appreciated as well.

 

Also, is there a particular brand of ammunition that this rifle tends to like most in terms of accuracy, or does it vary from rifle to rifle? If you are allowed to say, where do you like to buy your ammunition from?

 

Thanks in advance for your help and good day to you.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Have you considered moving to another state, where the US constitution actually has meaning? In the alternative you can jump through hoops to make your Saiga California legal.... until they pass yet another law requiring you to do something else to it, or they come and take it away from you altogether.

 

Sorry to hear about Californians having to be fingerprinted to buy ammo. Schwartzenegger is beneath contempt.

 

WS

Edited December 5, 2009 by WaffenSchmied

[Redwood 3]

My understanding is that the sporter version of the Saiga is already CA legal. I am looking to improve on the stock version of this model with a better trigger and whatever else is recommended here.

 

CA has lame gun laws for sure, but I sure do love the landscape so no, moving is not an option for now.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but most of the members here live outside of California, and can't advise you about making modifications to your gun within the law.

 

Are you actually allowed to modify your own gun in California? I would first check on that, and then get specifics concerning what you may and may not legally do, and THEN post questions relating to the specific changes you want to make.

 

JHMO

 

WS

[Redwood 3]

CA law forbids a pistol-style grip or a folding stock on a rifle and limits the mag capacity to 10. It also forbids flash suppressors. Other conversions, such as a better trigger or other types of forearms etc are just fine, as I understand it.

[imarangemaster 315]

We have several active Kalifornia members here: SJgunguy and Desert Dog. Can you guys help him out. When I thought I was going to move back to Peoples Republik of Kalifornia, I was going to keep my detachable 30 rounders (had a registered AK when I lived there) and put a Monster Man Grip (MMG) so I didn't have an evil pistol grip which limits you to 10 round, non-detachable (rad-lock release) magazine.

[Redwood 3]

I just realized I should ask this question on the Calguns.net forum, where all the CA folk hang.

 

I reckon my main question here boils down to: how to maximize the accuracy with a Sporter version of the Saiga?

Edited December 5, 2009 by Redwood

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

CA law forbids a pistol-style grip or a folding stock on a rifle and limits the mag capacity to 10. It also forbids flash suppressors. Other conversions, such as a better trigger or other types of forearms etc are just fine, as I understand it.

 

Don't know that there is much you can do about the trigger. The FCG's can become unreliable if you mess with the actual hook, disconnector or hammer, and I am not aware of a sporter replacement FCG.

 

I overhauled a stock factory gun a while back. I got rid of the axis pin retaining spring anchored by the the trigger group linkage pin. I riveted the triger group linkage pin back in place, and used e clips (2 per pin) to secure the axis pins. The pull on the trigger was greatly improved - but I don't know if this sort of mod is legal in California.

 

If you are not a gunsmith experienced with Saiga factory FCG's, I would not advise you to attempt undertake something like this yourself.

 

Hopefully, there is a licensed gunsmith close by who can better advise you regarding what modifications are and are not allowed under California statutes.

 

WS

[Paulyski 2,227]

Ask Peach state...

 

They convert CA. legal S-12s.

 

Maybe they do AKs too?

 

http://shop.peachstateguns.com/product.sc?productId=662&categoryId=67

[Digger44 0]

I guess I do not understand the OP's question. What is wrong with the Saiga in its original setup? It is perfectly fine the way it is for a CA gun. It doesn't need a new stock, trigger, or anything else to be an accurate, reliable rifle. It has already achieved that. The scope mount would be like any other AK. Why would the sites need to be changed? A Saiga will shoot close to 2" groups as it is. There isn't much you can do to improve over that.

 

There are many ammo threads if you use the search feature of browse the forum.

[Mickey3GUN 5]

CALIF AW Flowchart The link will take you to a flow chart that you can use to comply with our lousy CA gun laws (but great shooting weather:super:.........) here in the PRK. Given it's an AK in sheep's clothing, accuracy is a relative term. Ideally, what do you consider accurate? 1, 2 or 3 MOA at 100 yards? What ammunition are you budgeting for (i.e. Wolf vs. Lapua)? You can make a few additions without bringing down the wrath of CALDoJ. ( I would be more concerned with Fed 922 compliance.) What's the main mission of the weapon? Plinking, home defense, zombie attacks (god I hate them Zombies..)? This will help us advise you better if we know what you ultimate goal is. You may have to make some compromises to get what you want, and still be CA compliant, but it's doable.

 

Being a CA bound/based shooter, too, I feel for ya! But I, and I'm sure some of the other CA shooters here on the board are more than willing to help. I love my 7.62 for plinking, punching paper and destroying bowling pins!

 

Some of the major advantages (off the top of my head) of the Saiga (IMHO) are:

1) They will eat any ammo you can throw at them, and are at least "minute of zombie" accurate

2) Like a true AK, they will run clean, dirty, and anywhere in between.

3) You can massage the existing trigger if you want, just don't expect a "match grade" feel.

4) You have magazine options available to you that are widely available and at a reasonable cost.

5) You can hang anything on the Saiga that you would an AR or AK (so don't worry to much about it).

6) You can mod. it to do what you want, just not with a pistol grip (damn:angry:it).

 

You will not regret picking one up. On average a Saiga runs about $200 less than a comparable Mini 30. (And I own and love both.) Just one persons opinion, but I hope it gives you something things to think about. Hope this helps.

[Redwood 3]

Digger4: My curiosity about modifying the Saiga sporter is based on many complaints I have read about the regular buttstock (hollow, cheezy, too light, not ergonomic), trigger (rough, heavy), and rear sights (not high quality, hard to hit distant objects with). Since I have no direct experience with Saigas I figured they must be like the older Ruger Mini-14's, a 'jewel in the rough', in need of some refinement to bring out their full accuracy and ergonomic potential. No offense, but it's kind of annoying to receive an answer like yours which judges the validity of my question rather than offering any helpful information. My apologies if my question was not specific enough, but I am very very new to the Saiga realm. I am well aware of the search feature, but did not find what I was looking for with an initial search. Most forums I have joined are peopled by members that are very happy to share their experiences and knowledge, especially with people that are new to the topic and new to the forum. You could have just said "My Saiga gets best accuracy from Golden Bear ammo" and it would have been 100% more helpful than what you wrote.

 

Micky3: Thanks for your response and your offer to help in my quest to learn more about the Saiga. I want this to be a 'versatile' rifle, with the intended purpose of plinking, ranch pest control, SD and zombie knockdown (so many movies about zombies these days - does this mean they're real?). I would also like to be able to use it for hunting deer and wild pigs. I'm not attached to the idea of a pistol grip, and in the past 12 hours of my Saiga education I have seen that some owners use a Saiga skeleton stock on theirs and like them for their ergonomics and balance. I have also read on the Calguns.net forum of someone putting an HK front and rear sight on their Saiga and liking it a great deal. I know that I want to be able to mount a red dot or holosight ore even a low power scope on the gun, as well as a powerful flashlight. I'm still trying to understand the whole California and magazine thing. I see many converted CA-legal Saiga's with 30-round mags that are modified to only accept 10 rounds and don't understand what the point of having the longer mag is. I do like the idea of not being limited to Saiga mags, however, in case the zombies chew them to pieces and I have to scrounge an AK mag in a pinch... I also don't know about a muzzle brake - seems like a good idea if it would help smooth out the shooting, as long as it did not make it louder to me as the shooter (of course I wear ear plugs). Thanks again.

[Bizzarolibe 5]

Ooh, ooh, I know: move to another state!

 

 

Naw, seriously I feel for you. My bro just had to move to the PRNJ for his job, and had to leave all his guns with me (worked out nice for me though ). If I were you I'd constantly write to various police departments in your state and ask them how they can sleep at night knowing that everyday they go to work they piss on the Constitution that our forefathers bled to write. Yeah, I don't have much sympathy for Cali-cops. IMO, if you're helping to enforce blatantly unjust, oppressive laws then you're just as bad as the scum that wrote them.

[Digger44 0]

Digger4: My curiosity about modifying the Saiga sporter is based on many complaints I have read about the regular buttstock (hollow, cheezy, too light, not ergonomic), trigger (rough, heavy), and rear sights (not high quality, hard to hit distant objects with). Since I have no direct experience with Saigas I figured they must be like the older Ruger Mini-14's, a 'jewel in the rough', in need of some refinement to bring out their full accuracy and ergonomic potential. No offense, but it's kind of annoying to receive an answer like yours which judges the validity of my question rather than offering any helpful information. My apologies if my question was not specific enough, but I am very very new to the Saiga realm. I am well aware of the search feature, but did not find what I was looking for with an initial search. Most forums I have joined are peopled by members that are very happy to share their experiences and knowledge, especially with people that are new to the topic and new to the forum. You could have just said "My Saiga gets best accuracy from Golden Bear ammo" and it would have been 100% more helpful than what you wrote.

 

Micky3: Thanks for your response and your offer to help in my quest to learn more about the Saiga. I want this to be a 'versatile' rifle, with the intended purpose of plinking, ranch pest control, SD and zombie knockdown (so many movies about zombies these days - does this mean they're real?). I would also like to be able to use it for hunting deer and wild pigs. I'm not attached to the idea of a pistol grip, and in the past 12 hours of my Saiga education I have seen that some owners use a Saiga skeleton stock on theirs and like them for their ergonomics and balance. I have also read on the Calguns.net forum of someone putting an HK front and rear sight on their Saiga and liking it a great deal. I know that I want to be able to mount a red dot or holosight ore even a low power scope on the gun, as well as a powerful flashlight. I'm still trying to understand the whole California and magazine thing. I see many converted CA-legal Saiga's with 30-round mags that are modified to only accept 10 rounds and don't understand what the point of having the longer mag is. I do like the idea of not being limited to Saiga mags, however, in case the zombies chew them to pieces and I have to scrounge an AK mag in a pinch... I also don't know about a muzzle brake - seems like a good idea if it would help smooth out the shooting, as long as it did not make it louder to me as the shooter (of course I wear ear plugs). Thanks again.

 

It is kind of interesting that we have something in common but are yet so very different. While I have shot the Saiga, I do not own one (it is on order and will be here next week). The difference between us is that instead of listening to the complaints, I have decided to educate myself the best I can by reading the vast expanse of data that this forum has to offer. I didn't judge the validity of anything you said. I simply pointed to the fact that all your questions and a million more are contained here in this forum and I have found it a great joy to browse the forum and find them. While this may annoy you, I would point out that knowledge that is earned and gained is much more helpful, appreciated, and valuable than advice given. I am not better than anyone or have a higher knowledge than anyone, but the majority of your questions are answered not even a few pages deep into the forum. That is not an insult, sir, it is a very good thing.

 

The Saiga is nothing like the Mini-14. It is the most reliable action ever produced, the Kalashnikov. The stock has really nothing to do with its accuracy or reliability. You can purchase a new one for $40 that looks nicer. It won't do anything differently. The trigger has been discussed at length many times over. Using the word "trigger" in the search feature produces 8 pages of answers. the same with "site" and "ammo". Of course the largest challenge you face is your state law. You should start with that before you dream of hi cap mags and zombie killers.

 

By no means am I being rude or offensive here. I have a banquet table of info sitting in front of me and I am feeding. I invite you to do the same thing.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Digger44

[BuzzKillin 21]

CA law forbids a pistol-style grip or a folding stock on a rifle and limits the mag capacity to 10. It also forbids flash suppressors. Other conversions, such as a better trigger or other types of forearms etc are just fine, as I understand it.

 

You should add that the evil features are banned, UNLESS you fix the magazine with a Bullet Button of some flavor.

[BuzzKillin 21]

I guess I do not understand the OP's question. What is wrong with the Saiga in its original setup? It is perfectly fine the way it is for a CA gun. It doesn't need a new stock, trigger, or anything else to be an accurate, reliable rifle. It has already achieved that. The scope mount would be like any other AK. Why would the sites need to be changed? A Saiga will shoot close to 2" groups as it is. There isn't much you can do to improve over that.

 

There are many ammo threads if you use the search feature of browse the forum.

 

I actually don't really agree with you here Digger44. The stock trigger is absolute crap. Not that it still isn't a great rifle etc., but the trigger pull just cannot be compared with a G2. I found the original buttstock to 'feel' cheap and hollow. I filled mine with foam, and that helped some, but it still felt pretty cheap. The Nato stock I'm using now is much more sturdy and I would feel comfortable using it as a dentist. I don't have any huge compaints about the stock buttstock, but I do like the others I've tried much more. I also disagree that accuracy is not MUCH improved by moving the trigger group back to its original config and adding a pistol grip. The whole balance of the weapon is much nicer, so shooting standing or crouched is much much easier. The rifle is already heavy in the front, so moving your grip up and making it vertical really helps.

Edited December 7, 2009 by BuzzKillin

[BuzzKillin 21]

Hey Newbie..

I am a California resident as well, and I've done a full conversion on my Saiga 7.62x39. There are, besides the 922r considerations (you can find TONS of info on that on this forum), some California specific considerations you need to look at. As you mentioned, you should look at Calguns, because there are many there who know a lot more than I do about the law, but here are the basics as I understand them:

 

- In Ca., you cannot put any "evil features" on your weapon (i.e. Flash Suppressor, Forward Pistol Grip, Pistol Grip, Flare/Grenade Launcher, Collapsible Stock) while you have a detachable magazine, period. The stock Saiga does not contain any of these features obviously. To get around this and be able to add features to your rifle, you will need to use a so-called Bullet Button (sorry if you already know this), which effectively makes the magazine "fixed" by definition. There are many options there, but I have used RADD for AK (which will require that you replace the mag release mechanism.. pretty easy) and I'm currently testing the one from Solar Tactical (which fits over you existing mag release, and allows you to keep the original... makes it easy to remove when out of state etc.). With either of these options, you should be completely within the law putting a pistol grip etc. on your weapon. I believe there is an exception in the case of Flash Suppressors, which as I remember, are just outright banned... Grenade launcher too.. haha.

 

- Once your rifle has been converted/restored to a pistol grip config with it's evil features, you can only use 10 round magazines, period. In case you didn't know, if you own preban mags that are 10+, you can use them in your stock (sporterized) configuration on the Saiga, but as soon as you add EF's, you forfeit that right in Ca. So, if you don't have a bunch of pre-ban 10+ mags lying around, there really isn't any reason to NOT restore it and just use 10 round mags. I can highly recommend the SGM (SureFire) mags if you aren't going to put in a bullet guide and start combing the Internet for East Block 10 rounders... Personally, I didn't want to bother, plus using US made mags, adds +3 US Made parts (I know! I know! forum veterans).

 

Make SURE to do your own research. I'm recalling off the top of my head, so double-check, but I think its all right.

 

Regarding your original question. As far as accuracy etc. All I can say is having the rifle in it's original configuration (i.e. with pistol grip) and with the addition of a G2 trigger, is like night and day. I cannot give you an actual MOA difference, but the balance, trigger pull, and ergonomics of the weapon are completely changed post restoration, and I would GUESS that you could easily increase your grouping by up to 2 MOA if you are a consistent shooter. Other than that, I suppose ammo also plays a role, but I have yet to see a huge difference between the types I have used. There are many on this forum who are very knowledgeable about exactly that. I've used "the Bears" (Brown, Silver, Golden Bear) and been very happy with it. I also have enjoyed Wolf Military Classic and Black Box.

 

Check Calguns.net for your Ca. law requirements and here for the 922r guidelines, and don't get too overwhelmed.. it's really pretty straight forward and totally worth it imho. And don't listen to Ca. haters. Everyone who lives here knows why.

[Redwood 3]

While this may annoy you, I would point out that knowledge that is earned and gained is much more helpful, appreciated, and valuable than advice given. I am not better than anyone or have a higher knowledge than anyone, but the majority of your questions are answered not even a few pages deep into the forum. That is not an insult, sir, it is a very good thing.

 

By no means am I being rude or offensive here. I have a banquet table of info sitting in front of me and I am feeding. I invite you to do the same thing.

 

No offense taken, Digger. However since I am a teacher by trade and a lifelong learner by nature I have to partly disagree with you, since I have found that everyone has a different style of learning, none better than the other, and that sometimes receiving advice, especially at the beginning of one's search, can be very helpful, valuable, and much appreciated indeed. In many traditions, asking questions of someone more learned is actually the beginning of the path of earning and gaining knowledge. In my experience as a teacher I find it can help set the stage and inspire the learner to seek information more efficiently on their own. As a member of a variety of forums I personally enjoy helping new members with their newbie questions - knowledge shared, person to person, has an esteemed heritage in human history (as does knowledge earned through one's solo efforts, of course). As a learner I find that asking questions in the beginning of my search is also simply a way of making contact with others, of initiating a conversation with the sage elders of the forum tribe, if you will.

 

The library is here in the archives of course, and I look forward to going in.

 

And by the way, I am not aspiring to use high-cap magazines with my Saiga, as I am well aware that CA law forbids having more than 10 rounds in a magazine. That is why I was writing in my previous post that I did not see the point in having a large-cap mag modified to accept only 10 rounds.

 

I have rambled here, way off topic from the subject of my own original post. Oh well.

[Redwood 3]

BuzzKillin -

 

Thanks very much for your generous post. You have cleared up some misconceptions I have had and made the whole conversion process seem much more do-able. I gather then that the high-cap mags I have seen on the Calguns forum are pre-ban mags that the folks had, and that these are not transferrable, correct? At any rate I will be happy with 10-rounders, seems like plenty to me. The US-made mags that you mention - do you have a particular brand you have found to be most reliable? Excuse my ignorance, but since I may want to do some modifications which will necessitate me having a Bullet Button, does this mean I will have to load the mags from the top, so to speak, with the mag in the gun?

 

Yea, there's definitely a strong anti-California vibe here. That's okay everyone, thanks for your concern, but I'll take my life on the edge of the wilderness with redwoods and elk around me and my 10-round mags over most other more gun-friendly places. Although Oregon is sure great...

[Mickey3GUN 5]

Redwood, sounds like we have a similar objective in mind. Here's how I configured mine. Side, standard commie bloc "slide on" scope mount. They have available one's that feature weaver rails both on top for the scope, and side for an accessory. (I'm thinking flashlight...) I have also looked at a scout scope mount manufactured by Scout Scope, Inc. in Cedar Park TX (can't post a link as they are not a "forum" sponsor). But I like the configuration a lot, and maayyy just just switch over to it. Scope recommendation, any good red dot or low power optic. I went with a BSA, 1 x 3.5 power, RGB dot scope (STSRGBD3X). The only downside to this scope; it's a little heavy but not bad, and the lighted reticle is useless in full sun conditions (all you can see is the black dot) but great in low light. Side note: Don't be put off by BSA, if it's good enough for Tom at Cadiz Gun Works on his Saiga 12, it will (and has) survived my 7.62..... I love the low power optics feature!! Very quick target acquisition. And at around $200 it's a deal.

 

I would add a bullet guide, mod. the magazine release to accept a standard AK magazine, and modify the standard Saiga mag. to fit. (Think JB Weld here.) I have found this gives me the most flexibility concerning magazines. A tip, you can purchase AK magazine rebuild kit's and have them shipped to CA. (They are basically a disassembled AK mag.) Add a block to restrict the mag. capacity to 10 rounds AND THEN, AND ONLY THEN assembly the "kit" into a magazine to stay legal. People get the 30 round kit's because that's the only size they can find. (It kinda sorta act's as a poor man's fore grip too....... ......) (Avoid at all cost the Cheaper Than Dirt, 10 round reworked metal magazines, they are nothing more than a paper weight!)

 

I'd mod. the front sling mount and replace it with a sling stud. Think bi-pod mounting point here, and you will still be able to use QD sling hardware, too.

 

Add a recoil pad to the stock, they are great, (and my lady likes to shoot it now, too). (Think less resistance to future gun purchases here, another bonus!)

 

Muzzle compensator (notice it's not an evil flash hider!) I'm looking at the "J Tak 47" brake made by Primary Weapons Systems. Google it and watch the video. I see one in my future.

 

So now you have a great shooter that lacks the stigma (out here) of an EBR (Evil Black Rifle), but maintains all the necessary functionality (and at a lower cost than your typical AR). It will be accurate enough and have good knock down power for your wild pig problem (I'd say within 200 yards) too. Feel free to PM me if you need more info, but I hope this post goes more to your question(s). I'm shooting my Saiga so much, my Mini-30, albeit more accurate (1 1/2 MOA@100yds.) is getting jealous...... I hate sibling rivalry, it's so petty.

[Redwood 3]

Micky3Gun -

 

What a great post! You saved me many many hours of flopping around looking for things I did not even know I needed or that they existed. You and Buzzkillin have really helped to partly demystify the 'conversion' process for me, which I have up to now found pretty confusing. Thanks for the clarification about the mags. What did you end up doing about your stock set up - did you stay with the Monte Carlo or go pistol grip etc? By the way how do you find the recoil on the Saiga compared to the Mini-30? I remember several years ago shooting the Mini-30 and being rather surprised by how much recoil it had. But then again I had an undiagnosed advanced case of Lyme disease raging in the background so that may have had something to do with it... I'll PM you with additional questions more than likely. Cheers and good evening.

[Mickey3GUN 5]

Glade we could help! Buzz is a great guy! Check out his cleaning a Saiga video, too. It's helpful. Look'n forward to the PM's if I can be of anymore assistance. With money being tight for all of us, it's helps to learn from the mistakes of others, don't ask me how I know this........

[BuzzKillin 21]

BuzzKillin -

 

Thanks very much for your generous post. You have cleared up some misconceptions I have had and made the whole conversion process seem much more do-able. I gather then that the high-cap mags I have seen on the Calguns forum are pre-ban mags that the folks had, and that these are not transferrable, correct? At any rate I will be happy with 10-rounders, seems like plenty to me. The US-made mags that you mention - do you have a particular brand you have found to be most reliable? Excuse my ignorance, but since I may want to do some modifications which will necessitate me having a Bullet Button, does this mean I will have to load the mags from the top, so to speak, with the mag in the gun?

 

Yea, there's definitely a strong anti-California vibe here. That's okay everyone, thanks for your concern, but I'll take my life on the edge of the wilderness with redwoods and elk around me and my 10-round mags over most other more gun-friendly places. Although Oregon is sure great...

 

SureFire gun mags (SGM) is the company to look for imo. There is also ProMag, but from what I've heard they are poor quality. You should be able to pick up some 10 rounders online for about $25 each. Beware of gun stores with these mags (won't mention any names) though, because some of them will try to charge you $50 for a 10 round SureFire Magazine. And no, no top loading with a bullet button or equivalent. You just need to use some sort of tool to remove the magazine. Look at the RADD locks.. they come with a tool. Solar Tactical doesn't include a tool, BUT you can use almost anything.. I am currently practicing using the lip of another magazine as my "tool". Makes for pretty quick changes and mimics the natural flow of changing mags. I don't have any videos of changes with the Solar Tactical, but I do have one that shows the process of using the RADD lock tool about mid-video here:

Edited December 7, 2009 by BuzzKillin