Saiga .223 quality and support

[christcorp 26]

I have narrowed my .223 search down to a Saiga, Golani (Galil), or an Olympic Arms AR-15. There's definitely pros and cons of each. But one concern I had, was support. Obviously, I can go to just about any gun shop, gun show, etc... and find spare parts for an AR-15. Even to an extent, the Golani (Galil) has become somewhat popular when it comes to spare parts. My question is basically to put my mind at easy; if I choose the Saiga.

 

With the all the talk of 922r, there seems to be a lot of people doing conversions. As such, these would have to be American Parts. So, does that mean that if the SHTF; if saiga's were banned; if a bunch of other crap happened; that getting replacement parts for the saiga, if it was needed, wouldn't be that difficult. I would think that because there's so many "conversion" kits out there, that there's an American Part for most of the Saiga. In other words; if necessary; would the saiga have parts available if the outside world was shut down from importing. Thanks. mike.

[jimdigriz 580]

I have narrowed my .223 search down to a Saiga, Golani (Galil), or an Olympic Arms AR-15. There's definitely pros and cons of each. But one concern I had, was support. Obviously, I can go to just about any gun shop, gun show, etc... and find spare parts for an AR-15. Even to an extent, the Golani (Galil) has become somewhat popular when it comes to spare parts. My question is basically to put my mind at easy; if I choose the Saiga.

 

With the all the talk of 922r, there seems to be a lot of people doing conversions. As such, these would have to be American Parts. So, does that mean that if the SHTF; if saiga's were banned; if a bunch of other crap happened; that getting replacement parts for the saiga, if it was needed, wouldn't be that difficult. I would think that because there's so many "conversion" kits out there, that there's an American Part for most of the Saiga. In other words; if necessary; would the saiga have parts available if the outside world was shut down from importing. Thanks. mike.

 

Mike,

In general, the parts you will put on a Saiga are exactly the same that would go on other AKs, unless you get one of the few Saiga-specific handguards. 223 AK mags are somewhat rare, though, so just stock up now as many as you can. There are a few internal parts that are not directly replaceable from other AKs, although the likelihood of them ever breaking is extremely low.

 

A Galil would be a good choice too.

 

Jim

[Wolverine 10,360]

Replacing the bolt would be a problem as there is no known source for the .223 (or 7.62) other than the factory in Russia. However, the likelihood of needing to replace it is relatively low.

[PRISONSHANK 70]

you could get two saiga 223's for the price of an AR...that's 2 armed folks over one and spare parts to keep one gun running for two lifetimes

[saigafreake 27]

id get the golani or the saiga and pass on the aly ar.

[Lashlarue 1]

It just dawned on me that other than conversion screw-ups, I don't recall a defective Saiga being delivered to a customer.Even NAA has an occasional problem, usually shallow grooves in the barrel causing the bullets to keyhole.Really unusual when dealing with barrels as short as 1".To the fellow who mentioned choices of Galil, Saiga and Olympic,get all three.I have the Galil, and Saiga and have found prices on AR's dropping to pre=election levels. Olympic less than $900, S&W less than a $1000, and a Century build with the triangular forearearm for less than $700.I just don't want to be a guinea pig for the Century.

[christcorp 26]

I think I am at the 70% mark of getting the saiga. Very compelling arguments for it. The other 30% is possibly the golani (Galil) that is locally available used. The saiga, with a new buttstock/pg, so I can legally use Surefire hi-cap mags, will be a total price of $500. The golani out the door is $600, but doesn't require any modifications to use it the way it is with hi-cap mags.

 

My only thing is; I've heard no negative responses of the saiga; and the galil seems to be a 50/50 with some saying they're great and some saying that they suck. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm. thanks for the input. mike...

[christcorp 26]

Right when I got to the 90% point, I stopped into another one of our local gun shops. They had a Kel-tec SU-16 .223 for $560. I'm still leaning towards the Saiga in .223; but the kel-tec is/was a little bit enticing. Most of the reviews I've seen, show the Kel-tec to be a pretty decent rifle. Most people on the forum agree. However; most also agree that the Saiga is a BETTER rifle. The only thing really compelling about the Kel-tec is 1) It uses standard AR-15 magazines and 2) There's really nothing to upgrade on it other than adding to the rail something like a scope. But, there is the $150 price difference out the door. My head hurts. I need another beer. later. Mike.

[jimdigriz 580]

Right when I got to the 90% point, I stopped into another one of our local gun shops. They had a Kel-tec SU-16 .223 for $560. I'm still leaning towards the Saiga in .223; but the kel-tec is/was a little bit enticing. Most of the reviews I've seen, show the Kel-tec to be a pretty decent rifle. Most people on the forum agree. However; most also agree that the Saiga is a BETTER rifle. The only thing really compelling about the Kel-tec is 1) It uses standard AR-15 magazines and 2) There's really nothing to upgrade on it other than adding to the rail something like a scope. But, there is the $150 price difference out the door. My head hurts. I need another beer. later. Mike.

 

On the Kel Tec forum, many of them say that the SU-16 has a problem with steel-cased ammo. (Some of them say it works OK for them though).

[Krom 36]

My .223 saiga is probably my favorite weapon. If you don't mind getting your hands dirty and doing the conversion I'd say go with the saiga all the way. The sagia .223 system is based on the 7.62x39 so all your parts are overbuilt, the chamber is actually a 5.56 chamber, I especially like that fact that the heavy barrel which resists heat very well. Make the investment time wise to do the conversion and parts correctly and you will love the result.

 

Also my suggestion is to make it take compatible with .223 ak mags (kvar type) dont waste your time with the surefire's.

My 2 cents.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Krom

[GregM1 241]

Replacing the bolt would be a problem as there is no known source for the .223 (or 7.62) other than the factory in Russia. However, the likelihood of needing to replace it is relatively low.

 

I thought the Bulgarian parts at Kvar were a replacement option. Is that just for the bolt carrier and not the bolt?

 

It just dawned on me that other than conversion screw-ups, I don't recall a defective Saiga being delivered to a customer.

 

The only problem I have read about, other that conversion errors, was a broken bolt.

 

 

On the Kel Tec forum, many of them say that the SU-16 has a problem with steel-cased ammo. (Some of them say it works OK for them though).

 

Do you know if this is similar to the problem AR's have with the lacquer on the steel case heating and sticking the in chamber?

 

 

 

I also agree with Krom about the mil-surp right away over surefires.

[christcorp 26]

Like I said, I'm definitely leaning towards the Saiga. But I must ask. I understand the conversions. But there's obviously a lot of conversions that can be made. Eventually, it could even be a lot of money. What I don't understand is; other than a pistol grip stock; and a hi-cap magazine; what other "Conversions" would you be wanting to do??? And WHY??? If the AK platform is so good, why are you wanting to change what the Russian Manufacturer made it as??? If I want to shoot Hi-Cap magazines, the Surefire's have had great reviews. Also, because they are American; they count as 3 pieces of conversion. Then, a simply $60 butt stock replacement, and you're back into compliance. So why, if the AK-47 is so great (Which I think it is); would I want to change out a bunch of other parts, when the least amount to do is the butt stock. (I don't count the magazine, because I wanted to buy that anyway. Afterall, that is/was the whole purpose of modding it. To legally shoot 30 round magazine). So; can someone tell me WHY people spend upward of $150-$400 to convert a gun that they said was great to start with? I sort of understand the $125 for the AR Mag adapter. (Or whatever magazine adapter). But other than that and the buttstock, I just don't get it. I'm not talking about ACCESSORIES. I'm only talking about CONVERSIONS. If I buy the saiga, I will eventually by the american buttstock/pg and some 30 round Surefire magazines. Don't know what else I would want to change on the actual gun. mike...

[jimdigriz 580]

The only problem I have read about, other that conversion errors, was a broken bolt.

 

The front site assembly on one of mine is slightly canted.

 

 

 

On the Kel Tec forum, many of them say that the SU-16 has a problem with steel-cased ammo. (Some of them say it works OK for them though).

 

Do you know if this is similar to the problem AR's have with the lacquer on the steel case heating and sticking the in chamber?

 

I believe so. But again, some SU-16 users say their guns eat the steel-cased stuff without complaining. It seems to be hit or miss, and possibly dependent on how often the gun is cleaned.

 

My rifles (besides my Ruger 10 22) MUST be able to shoot steel-cased ammo. It's a simple matter of economics.

 

Jim

[Pointer55 1]

Like I said, I'm definitely leaning towards the Saiga. But I must ask. I understand the conversions. But there's obviously a lot of conversions that can be made. Eventually, it could even be a lot of money. What I don't understand is; other than a pistol grip stock; and a hi-cap magazine; what other "Conversions" would you be wanting to do??? And WHY??? If the AK platform is so good, why are you wanting to change what the Russian Manufacturer made it as??? If I want to shoot Hi-Cap magazines, the Surefire's have had great reviews. Also, because they are American; they count as 3 pieces of conversion. Then, a simply $60 butt stock replacement, and you're back into compliance. So why, if the AK-47 is so great (Which I think it is); would I want to change out a bunch of other parts, when the least amount to do is the butt stock. (I don't count the magazine, because I wanted to buy that anyway. Afterall, that is/was the whole purpose of modding it. To legally shoot 30 round magazine). So; can someone tell me WHY people spend upward of $150-$400 to convert a gun that they said was great to start with? I sort of understand the $125 for the AR Mag adapter. (Or whatever magazine adapter). But other than that and the buttstock, I just don't get it. I'm not talking about ACCESSORIES. I'm only talking about CONVERSIONS. If I buy the saiga, I will eventually by the american buttstock/pg and some 30 round Surefire magazines. Don't know what else I would want to change on the actual gun. mike...

 

The saiga 223 is actually a mutilated AK, this has been done to allow them into the country as a sporting rifle (because we all know we are NOW being infringed by this "sporting" interpretation of the 2nd amendment). The trigger is not in the right place and is just horrible, by putting one of those all-in-one PG/buttstocks on you will most likely find the length of pull and general feel of the rifle is very bad (some like it though). Also the barrel lacks any type of way of affixing a flash surpressor/muzzle brake. Also the full length "deer rifle" handgaurd is not really right for an AK (although I admit this is just PP and aesthetics). The lack of the required bullet guide (standard on every AK) dooms you to using high cost Plastic-only mags.

 

I bought my saiga 223 back in early 2008 for @ $180 new and have more than that much again into it with the conversions to get it more "like it was meant to be", and still it has extra holes in the reciever, a screwed in bullet guide (instead of riveted), and screw tighten HG retainer and a reworked front sight (indent pin hole drilled and cross drilled).

 

My saiga shoots great, but the quality was not the best on the rifle. The rear trunnion rivets are done very poorly. When building a rifle from a kit and i have one turn out like that i drill it out and do it over. My front sight was canted to the right. my reciever is not even close to U shaped like it is suposed to be, more like / / . And the barrel has tooling marks that compare to a rough egyptian AK. Before the "DON'T MF MY TEAM" folks get their panties in a bunch let me repeat My saiga 223 shoots great and I have never had a single malfunction from it in the couple cases (1000)I have put through it. The OP asked for peoples experience with "their" saiga 223's.

 

To the OP if it were me I would go with the golani, when you figure the cost of the mags and the "conversion" costs of the saiga, the $100 more for the golani will actually be a couple hundred less going with the golani. I have 2 friends who have golanis and they both work great.

Edited December 17, 2009 by Pointer55

[christcorp 26]

Well, I have decided that IF the shop still has the Saiga .223 available, that I will get it today. To get a decent AR, it would cost me approximately $800. I don't want to spend that much. I wasn't impressed with the golani (galil). And there's a lot of good reasons; that I realized from many on this and other forums; to decide on the Saiga .223

 

1. It is an AK. Most parts are interchangeable

2. As an AK, it has the reliability/dependability factor. Including shooting anything that you feed it.

3. The price is right. Even with tax, the price will be $444.14 out the door.

4. Besides the normal AK parts, there's also a number of American manufacturers of parts.

5. It's a brand new gun/parts, compared to many AK's in the traditional surplus world which have a lot of used parts.

6. While I have no real need/desire to convert the Saiga; the opportunity and capability is there if I so choose.

 

And the conversion issue is actually a very compelling issue. At least for me. After reading the 922r regulations, I've found that most of it really doesn't apply to me. Not that I'll intentionally break the law, but rather because it's not important to me.

 

1. I don't mind the weapon the way it is currently built

2. I have no need (Currently) for a magazine larger than 10 rounds.

3. If I have a need (In the future) for a 30 round magazine, then 922r won't mean crap. Why? because.....

3a. If society has gotten so unstable that we have to defend ourselves against mobs and such, where a 30+ round magazine will come in handy; then chances are that the government has already abused their authority in banning guns or whatever, and if I actually used the gun with a 10 or 30 round magazine, I'm probably up Shiite Creek anyway.

3b. If society has broken down so bad that we have to defend ourselves against mobs and such, where a 30+ round magazine will come in handy; and the government hasn't banned our weapons/ammo/etc...; then society will be such that neither the police nor anyone else is going to care that I'm not using a 922r compliant rifle. Politics will be out the window and local authorities will be too busy with basic local survival and won't care at all how many rounds my rifle fires.

 

Anyway; that's why I've chosen the Saiga. And as I mentioned, if I want to convert it, it is totally capable of me doing so. I might choose to convert or change it around, which I would comply with 922r. But if I choose to keep the Saiga stock; at least I'll have a few 30 round magazines just in case it's such a scenario with life and death where a 10 round magazine just won't cut it. Thanks for all your opinions. Mike...

[PRISONSHANK 70]

Good choice Mike...

btw if you wanna save a lil $$ you could order one from Peach State Guns.

free shipping and no cc fee, even after a $40 FFL transfer it would be cheaper than 444, although you'd have to wait a few days for it to get there.

[renegadebuck 16]

Well, I have decided that IF the shop still has the Saiga .223 available, that I will get it today. To get a decent AR, it would cost me approximately $800. I don't want to spend that much. I wasn't impressed with the golani (galil). And there's a lot of good reasons; that I realized from many on this and other forums; to decide on the Saiga .223

 

1. It is an AK. Most parts are interchangeable

2. As an AK, it has the reliability/dependability factor. Including shooting anything that you feed it.

3. The price is right. Even with tax, the price will be $444.14 out the door.

4. Besides the normal AK parts, there's also a number of American manufacturers of parts.

5. It's a brand new gun/parts, compared to many AK's in the traditional surplus world which have a lot of used parts.

6. While I have no real need/desire to convert the Saiga; the opportunity and capability is there if I so choose.

 

And the conversion issue is actually a very compelling issue. At least for me. After reading the 922r regulations, I've found that most of it really doesn't apply to me. Not that I'll intentionally break the law, but rather because it's not important to me.

 

1. I don't mind the weapon the way it is currently built

2. I have no need (Currently) for a magazine larger than 10 rounds.

3. If I have a need (In the future) for a 30 round magazine, then 922r won't mean crap. Why? because.....

3a. If society has gotten so unstable that we have to defend ourselves against mobs and such, where a 30+ round magazine will come in handy; then chances are that the government has already abused their authority in banning guns or whatever, and if I actually used the gun with a 10 or 30 round magazine, I'm probably up Shiite Creek anyway.

3b. If society has broken down so bad that we have to defend ourselves against mobs and such, where a 30+ round magazine will come in handy; and the government hasn't banned our weapons/ammo/etc...; then society will be such that neither the police nor anyone else is going to care that I'm not using a 922r compliant rifle. Politics will be out the window and local authorities will be too busy with basic local survival and won't care at all how many rounds my rifle fires.

 

Anyway; that's why I've chosen the Saiga. And as I mentioned, if I want to convert it, it is totally capable of me doing so. I might choose to convert or change it around, which I would comply with 922r. But if I choose to keep the Saiga stock; at least I'll have a few 30 round magazines just in case it's such a scenario with life and death where a 10 round magazine just won't cut it. Thanks for all your opinions. Mike...

 

 

I agree, get the Saiga. As far as an AR, get a CMMG "second" It might have a scratch that you can find, other than that, it will function flawlessly and will only set you back between 5-600 bucks(I can't remember which). I've seen several of them and shot them. They all are wonderful rifles just might have a scratch or two. I'll take a couple scratches for 200 buck savings anyday.

[christcorp 26]

Well, I went ahead and bought the Saiga today. I liked the Kel-tec SU16, especially the AR magazines, but I heard too much negative about the gun itself. A lot of positives, but definite negatives. I spent a lot of years with an AR (M-16), and I probably would have been satisfied with an Olympic Arms model for about $700 after s/h and FFL; but for the $300 difference, it just didn't seem practical. Especially for an AR version that also had mixed reviews. Some love them, some don't. And buying a Bush, Rock, Colt, etc... for $1000+ just wasn't going to cut it. Buying a lower and upper separately also didn't seem very practical unless you just like to customize. The price was going to be about the same as buying one already together. Basically, $650-$700.

 

So, I got the saiga. And in my opinion, which is limited on this weapon (But extensive in 2 areas that are significant: /223 and AK's); the saiga gives me the best of both worlds. It gives me the .223 caliber, which in my opinion is more practical in a defensive scenario if the SHTF. I say this because 7.62x39 is mainly an imported round. yes, there is some U.S. made, but it's not as abundant. .223 is predominantly our caliber. Yes, I could stock up a few thousand rounds of X39, but currently, the silver bear, wolf, etc... is about the same price for x39 as it is for .223. But, if they legislate a ban on importing x39 or similar; .223 will still be available. Maybe expensive, but available. Plus, if for some reason, citizens were called upon to assist local and state government; including possibly being armed; .223 is a common available caliber for logistical purposes.

 

The other side of best of both worlds, is the reliability of the AK. Yes, an AR-15 CAN be reliable. And if all we're talking about is recreational shooting, where you get to clean the gun any time you want to, and it doesn't matter if it hiccups; then it's an extremely reliable weapon. But if it was truly needed, the AK is simply more reliable. That has never been disputed. Even among our military, law enforcement, and others who use the AR15/M16. The simple truth is, American Made, there's very few weapons that shoot the .223. Mini-14, SU16, AR15/M16 variations. Obviously, the American military, police, etc... are not going to contract with a foreign government or contractor, to have AK's built for them and supplied to our troops. But the fact remains, the AK format is a more reliable and dependable weapon. And if you are going to use it, for what it was designed for, (Under 100 yards), then the AK is going to win. I personally can't imagine having a need for using the AR15/M16 as a sniper rifle. I didn't even have that need when I was in the military. Small arms combat is pretty much under 100 yards. The AK format is great for that. So, I get the reliability and the caliber.

 

So, I get a brand new gun, from the same manufacturer who designed and built the AK-47. I get the reliability of the AK. I get the .223 caliber which should always be available. I have all the capabilities of the AR and the clones, but at less than half the price. I get a chromed barrel. And so on. I think logically, this is the best deal. At least for me. And thank you all for all your opinions and assistance. It definitely helped a lot. Unfortunately, I leave tomorrow for a 10 day vacation. I'm existed for that; but I really wanted to go shoot this. I now have a total of 3 "New" guns (to me); that I've bought in the last month or so, that I haven't had a chance to fire yet. Hopefully I'll be able to do some shooting when I get back. Thanks again all.

[jimdigriz 580]

Congratulations on your purchase. I think it was a good choice, for all the reasons you cited.

 

Did you get the 16 or 20 inch barrel?

Edited December 19, 2009 by Jim Digriz

[swells08 128]

Well, I went ahead and bought the Saiga today. I liked the Kel-tec SU16, especially the AR magazines, but I heard too much negative about the gun itself. A lot of positives, but definite negatives. I spent a lot of years with an AR (M-16), and I probably would have been satisfied with an Olympic Arms model for about $700 after s/h and FFL; but for the $300 difference, it just didn't seem practical. Especially for an AR version that also had mixed reviews. Some love them, some don't. And buying a Bush, Rock, Colt, etc... for $1000+ just wasn't going to cut it. Buying a lower and upper separately also didn't seem very practical unless you just like to customize. The price was going to be about the same as buying one already together. Basically, $650-$700.

 

So, I got the saiga. And in my opinion, which is limited on this weapon (But extensive in 2 areas that are significant: /223 and AK's); the saiga gives me the best of both worlds. It gives me the .223 caliber, which in my opinion is more practical in a defensive scenario if the SHTF. I say this because 7.62x39 is mainly an imported round. yes, there is some U.S. made, but it's not as abundant. .223 is predominantly our caliber. Yes, I could stock up a few thousand rounds of X39, but currently, the silver bear, wolf, etc... is about the same price for x39 as it is for .223. But, if they legislate a ban on importing x39 or similar; .223 will still be available. Maybe expensive, but available. Plus, if for some reason, citizens were called upon to assist local and state government; including possibly being armed; .223 is a common available caliber for logistical purposes.

 

The other side of best of both worlds, is the reliability of the AK. Yes, an AR-15 CAN be reliable. And if all we're talking about is recreational shooting, where you get to clean the gun any time you want to, and it doesn't matter if it hiccups; then it's an extremely reliable weapon. But if it was truly needed, the AK is simply more reliable. That has never been disputed. Even among our military, law enforcement, and others who use the AR15/M16. The simple truth is, American Made, there's very few weapons that shoot the .223. Mini-14, SU16, AR15/M16 variations. Obviously, the American military, police, etc... are not going to contract with a foreign government or contractor, to have AK's built for them and supplied to our troops. But the fact remains, the AK format is a more reliable and dependable weapon. And if you are going to use it, for what it was designed for, (Under 100 yards), then the AK is going to win. I personally can't imagine having a need for using the AR15/M16 as a sniper rifle. I didn't even have that need when I was in the military. Small arms combat is pretty much under 100 yards. The AK format is great for that. So, I get the reliability and the caliber.

 

So, I get a brand new gun, from the same manufacturer who designed and built the AK-47. I get the reliability of the AK. I get the .223 caliber which should always be available. I have all the capabilities of the AR and the clones, but at less than half the price. I get a chromed barrel. And so on. I think logically, this is the best deal. At least for me. And thank you all for all your opinions and assistance. It definitely helped a lot. Unfortunately, I leave tomorrow for a 10 day vacation. I'm existed for that; but I really wanted to go shoot this. I now have a total of 3 "New" guns (to me); that I've bought in the last month or so, that I haven't had a chance to fire yet. Hopefully I'll be able to do some shooting when I get back. Thanks again all.

 

Congratulations! I love my Saiga..I plan on a mini convert to see if I can appreciate the trigger. Just the pg and bs for 57 at midway or miss. arms..I spent a long time reading these and many other forums and was dwn to the keltec or Saiga, once I hit the fun show read "gun show" I was able to handle both at the same table and it was a no brainer. Everyone here is tits when it comes to knowing their shit..Mine shot 3 inch groups out of the box at almost 60 yards..I agree if shtf no one is gonna look at my gear and say...nice un-compliant firearm there...jackass..lol hell bigger mags make me shoot more ammo..lol

[christcorp 26]

Congratulations on your purchase. I think it was a good choice, for all the reasons you cited.

 

Did you get the 16 or 20 inch barrel?

 

I got the 16" barrel. That's what I was looking for. I don't care about shooting 200-300 yards out. If I was a sniper rifle; I don't need an AK for that. I can use my 7mm magnum for that. Unfortunately, the day I got it, is the day I left for a 10 day vacation. So I haven't shot it yet. Matter of fact; because of the weather; I have 3 guns that I haven't shot yet. Gonna have to get to it. Anyway; while on vacation, Sportsauthority had 223 and all rifle ammo on 15% sale. So I picked up a few boxes of fiocchi for $9. I'll be buying some surplus stuff online for $5 a box when I get home. Looking forward to it. mike...