Saiga vs. Molot

[238shooter 0]

Hello All,

I am new today to the Saiga Forum and from reading many postings, I am very impressed! I am an open shooter and compete at many of the larger 3-gun competitons around the US. Since I have so much time and money in my Remington 1100, I have been reluctant to give it up. Well, my News Years resolution is to try someting new. My issue is which one..... Saiga or Molot. I have started the search and wanted to see what others had to offer. Are there certain models that are better versus another? I have read that one brands does not require the rocking action for mag changes but either accept the drum mags. I have a list going but want real shooters feedback. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Brian

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Vepr 12's are not available in the US. However, I have seen some very impressive race guns being built from S12's. If you do choose a Molot (wherever you may hail from), you are in for some very tough competition.

 

It occurs to me that the Molot's lack of availability in the US may work against it. Builders here are not constrained to the same degree that foreign builders may be.

 

Good luck with your research;)

 

WS

[ufo 20]

Buy Saiga. Molot's bolt goes to the hell after XXXX rounds...

BTW you can customize Saiga more than Molot.

 

Edited for double sentence...

Edited January 4, 2010 by ufo

[veprk 12]

Whenever I have a choice,I get molot.

 

If you get a chance to,compare a saiga rifle to a vepr. you'll see what I mean

[veprk 12]

Never heard of a vodka special comeing from Molot!

 

If I didnt sale my saiga rifle's I would do a quick side by side for you.

[ufo 20]

Whenever I have a choice,I get molot.

 

If you get a chance to,compare a saiga rifle to a vepr. you'll see what I mean

 

OK and what's the weakness of Molot? Bolt...

If i can buy new one i take molot. But I can't so game is over...

I've tried several guns: Saiga, Saiga with magwell, Molot... So i think I can compare...

SAIGA

[238shooter 0]

Thanks for the quick feed back everyone. This is making my decision a little easier.

[ufo 20]

No problem man i hope it helps...

Which one to buy? It's always about buyer's mind as with chicks...

[veprk 12]

Ive never even seen a vepr 12 other than picture's...but own a few rifle's and they are by far the best ak's ive seen

 

Funny you mentioned bolts on vepr 12,my saiga 12 bolt didnt last but 80 rounds. Waitin on warranty

 

Im sure you can get an extra bolt for the vepr. Just may take some time and effort

 

There is a member here from russia who has a friend at molot,maybe he could score you one.

 

Love my saiga 12's, after 100 rounds and a king armory tappet they both function great

Edited January 5, 2010 by veprk

[ufo 20]

We've tried it... No success... (buy new bolt)

If you compare bolt from saiga and molot you find the problematic place. Right now i can't make comparation photos.

 

BTW - bolt from saiga can be used in molot.

[DrBormental 9]

I have many friends at whom there is VEPR' . All of them speak that SAIGA it is impossible to compare on quality manufacturing to VEPR'. Quality of processing of materials, quality of manufacturing barrels at factory MOLOT is much better than on IZHMASH. My friends from factory MOLOT suggested me to buy VEPR ' under very low price, with very big New Year's discount. Price for me - 400 US dollars, but before new year I have not had time to obtain the licence for purchase, and as a result it is necessary to wait for other opportunity of purchase, and till this time I will use mine saiga

[238shooter 0]

Saiga's are readily available in US which I am planning on getting one next week. If I could only get my hands on a Molot, I would have both to compare. I shoot 10+ major 3 gun matches a year that have prize tables of $100k-$250K and usually place in the top 5. If I do not switch to a mag fed shotgun, I see in the future going down a few places in finish. I am very jealous of those who can buy the Molot's and can only hope to own one myself some day.

 

Can anyone confirm which Saiga is best to start with? I plan on getting it tricked out with parts being made here in US to help mag changes and recoil. I like the shorter barrels for getting in and out of ports although my 1100 had a 11 round tube hanging off the end which made life a little tough.

 

Thanks for feed back, keep whatever you can coming for a future box fed shotgun owner.

[veprk 12]

Sorry 238! cant help you with three gun stuff. I do find it weird that your competeing in 100,000 dollar competitions and yet your asking questions. Just think you would already be aware

 

I will recommend this website.He has the magwell adapter's to allow ar-15 style loading and all the other things I think you will need.

 

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-MAGAZINES-dsh-DRUMS-cln-SAIGA-12/Categories

 

Must also say,

 

Its nice to hear a russian confirm what I already knew!!

 

 

Oh,the above poster is the russian member I spoke of.

Edited January 8, 2010 by veprk

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Can anyone confirm which Saiga is best to start with?...

 

Imo the best S-12 model to start with is the IZ-109. It has the shortest OEM barrel available, (19").

Edited January 8, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Mikhail 5]

Hello.

Now Molot produces new bolt for vepr12.

[238shooter 0]

I may need to clarify my quest for Saiga/Molot info. I have shot the Rem 1100's/Benelli's along with many 3-gunners for years with speed loaders. When the Saiga's first came out, they were not mag change friendly nor were they feed reliable. As with anything, they were not perfect the first time out, but it sure had potential if parts and machining could produce a winner. That time has come and this is the reason for my switch. Everyone has parts for the 1100. If you break the Saiga in a match today.... well we all know. Until these parts are there, which they are now, I was not wanting to switch. Shame on me for not knowing all about the Saigas and Molots. These forums are wonderful and we should all support with thanks and funds, it is well worth it.

 

Thanks again EVERYONE for the feedback and those who took the time to personally shoot me a note. I look foward to seeing ya out there some time.

 

B

[veprk 12]

My apologies if I came across rude. Not my intention.

 

Should have worded that better. Just figured since you were into three gun that you may know some folks that have saiga's already prepped and would have a better idea than most here.

[ufo 20]

Hello.

Now Molot produces new bolt for vepr12.

 

Where can i get one or two?

 

Edit for question: It's interchangeable for old model without modifications(bolt/gun)?

Edited January 9, 2010 by ufo

[Mikhail 5]

Hello.

Now Molot produces new bolt for vepr12.

 

Where can i get one or two?

 

Edit for question: It's interchangeable for old model without modifications(bolt/gun)?

 

Yes, new bolt head is full interchangeable for old bolt and bolt's frame.

Catalogue parts for Vepr12 Molot(VPO-205): http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/48/286771.html .

Bolt head VPO-205 Sb3-3 (not Sb3-3-01).

Molot factory e-mail: molot@molot.biz.

Foreign partners Molot: >>LINK REMOVED<<.

Officially factory Molot does not supply this part in Russia by mail.

If find head informally, send it in another country this risk. Customs officers are unpredictable. Try to acquire through partners Molot.

Edited January 19, 2010 by MCASSgt New River
Non-Business Member Link.

[ufo 20]

OK, thx for info.

[USP40 1]

May I ask Is the Molot has no adjustable gas plug and how it work?

Thanks

[gtnichols 51]

This thread is in no way typical.

I can almost hear an accent while reading some of the posts.

 

Looks like there is a replacement bolt available from MOLOT that may interchange with the Saiga-12?

This is good to know,...

 

However,

I have never heard of a bolt failure, on a Saiga-12, on this forum, or anywhere, ever.

[sudaevpps43 31]

May I ask Is the Molot has no adjustable gas plug and how it work?

Thanks

 

The Vepr 12 made by Molot (upper shotgun in below picture) doesn't need a manually adjustable gas plug because it uses a self-regulating gas system instead. Incidentally, the KS-K made by Izhmash (lower shotgun in below picture) also uses a self-regulating gas system and likewise doesn't have a gas plug either.

 

Edited January 19, 2010 by Frogfoot

[USP40 1]

Thank you much. I have a friend oversea who just bought a Molot. He said he haing problem with FTE except the last round. I told him it could be that he didn't hold the gun tight against the shoulder?? He also said same thing happen with three different shooters. Any idea?

[billyjoebob 10]

I have never heard of a bolt failure, on a Saiga-12, on this forum, or anywhere, ever.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I know we've had several instance of firing pins shattering (and there are now Tromix replacements available), but never a problem with the entire bolt.

 

To be honest, I can't see any part of that hunk of metal breaking.

[oldandslow 3]

In the U.S. it's Saiga. I personally know Dean Makos who is a Grand Master 3-Gun shooter and a Saiga user. He has gotten his reloads into the 1 second range.

I've heard, but haven't verified that Taran Butler has started using Saiga, but has had problems with gun failures.

 

In my mini-world of local 3-Gun matches, I crush the non-Saiga shotgun users in the shotgun stages. But, for a couple of years, I was the butt of jokes as I worked my through the various problems.

I have posted a number of solutions to the problems that I have encountered. I have concluded that only a very few use their Saigas in competitive action matches.

 

If you were the original poster and were convinced that you should have a Saiga, who would you have build your gun? Dean Makos was somehow able to get Tony Rumore to build him two guns quickly. The rest of us have to wait a year or two. Other vendors build guns, obviously. Taran is pretty much the best in 3-Gun, but has had problems with his builders. I'm pretty sure that Taran shoots his Saiga 10 times more frequently than Dean.

[sudaevpps43 31]

Thank you much. I have a friend oversea who just bought a Molot. He said he haing problem with FTE except the last round. I told him it could be that he didn't hold the gun tight against the shoulder?? He also said same thing happen with three different shooters. Any idea?

 

Is his Vepr 12 brand new, and how many rounds has he fired through it since purchasing it? I am in the U.S. and have never fired a Vepr 12 since we can only get Saiga 12s here, but sometimes a brand new Saiga 12 has to be broken in and have a couple hundred rounds run though it first before it cycles consistently, so it may be the same with Vepr 12s as well.

 

Another possibility is that the ammo your friend is using may just not have enough power to reliably cycle his Vepr 12, and so there just isn't enough gas pressure to drive the bolt carrier back with enough velocity to reliably eject the shells. What sort of 12 gauge ammo is your friend shooting (birdshot, buckshot, or slugs), and what is the shell length (70mm, 73mm or 76mm) of these shells? If he has not tried it already, your friend should try some 76mm shells (preferably buckshot or slugs), to see if higher powered ammo like this will reliably eject and cycle his Vepr 12.

[ufo 20]

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Thank you much. I have a friend oversea who just bought a Molot. He said he haing problem with FTE except the last round. I told him it could be that he didn't hold the gun tight against the shoulder?? He also said same thing happen with three different shooters. Any idea?

 

Is his Vepr 12 brand new, and how many rounds has he fired through it since purchasing it? I am in the U.S. and have never fired a Vepr 12 since we can only get Saiga 12s here, but sometimes a brand new Saiga 12 has to be broken in and have a couple hundred rounds run though it first before it cycles consistently, so it may be the same with Vepr 12s as well.

 

Another possibility is that the ammo your friend is using may just not have enough power to reliably cycle his Vepr 12, and so there just isn't enough gas pressure to drive the bolt carrier back with enough velocity to reliably eject the shells. What sort of 12 gauge ammo is your friend shooting (birdshot, buckshot, or slugs), and what is the shell length (70mm, 73mm or 76mm) of these shells? If he has not tried it already, your friend should try some 76mm shells (preferably buckshot or slugs), to see if higher powered ammo like this will reliably eject and cycle his Vepr 12.

 

Please send me Airline tickets, vouchers for hotel and meals. I will need access to a fully equipped jewelers bench, finishing equipment, and lapidary shop near you. I will bring my tools and fix all of your Molots so that they are cycling everything without a problem.

 

I will also require a couple of Czech hookers, plenty of good English gin, Italian vermouth, Spanish olives (with pimento), lots of Ice, a martini shaker, and glassware.

 

Waffenschmied

Edited January 19, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[blackriton 0]

My VEPR12 has fired every round I put in it. More than 1000 rounds without any missfeads or FTE. I have tried everything from 30gr 12/70 birdshots to 12/76 slugs. It was like that out of the box. I haven't done any modifications to it.

I dont have a Saiga so I cant compare, but I am confident and can rely on my VEPR12.