Saiga-12 trigger job?

[pillnoob 0]

First off I want you guys to know my father has a machine shop and I have free range on most everything. I will be preforming this job on a surface grinder so no half-@$$ job here. My question is should I go to work on the hammer here first or the catch. The hammer springs are still stock so it has quite a bit of pull. Should I start cutting the spring up or just buy a new one. All help greatly appreciated, Thanks. Oh I will post some pictures up of it.

[pillnoob 0]

Sorry for my wrong-ful wording. I intened to leave the catch the way it is. I guess im just going to go the route of 922 r complant and move the trigger group forward. Has any one ever welded the trigger guard on here. I intend to tig and take it rather slowly so I dont heat the whole gun up.

[Azrial 1,091]

Just polish the mating surfaces. You are not trying to change angles and should not be removing anything but the Heat Treat slag and scale. This is not a job for a surface grinder. It requires finesse, not power.

[Matthew Hopkins 1,065]

I intend to tig and take it rather slowly so I dont heat the whole gun up.

 

 

IMO you are going overboard with that concept, there is no need to tig weld the trigger guard. what I did was to follow Moe Zambeak instuctions (link below), and modified the existing trigger guard. Moe's instructions are very detailed with pictures, it was so easy even I could do it, with just very basic hand tools, no machine shop is needed, I am not in anyway mechanically inclined and I was able to pull it off without screwing it up.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=40886

Edited January 20, 2010 by Matthew Hopkins

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I intend to tig and take it rather slowly so I dont heat the whole gun up.

 

 

IMO you are going overboard with that concept, there is no need to tig weld the trigger guard. what I did was to follow Moe Zambeak instuctions (link below), and modified the existing trigger guard. Moe's instructions are very detailed with pictures, it was so easy even I could do it, with just very basic hand tools, no machine shop is needed, I am not in anyway mechanically inclined and I was able to pull it off without screwing it up.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=40886

 

 

Matthew is absolutely correct. Occasionally, you will encounter those on the forum who would have you go to extraordinary measures to meet some arbitrary standard reflecting whatever their ideal may happen to be.

 

It should be noted with regard to the trigger guard that Izhmash uses three rivets and one puny spot weld to attach the factory trigger guard. The notion that you have to weld it on, or your gun is 'not good enough' is pure self indulgent arrogance and bullshit.

 

The same is true of applying unnecessary welds to the receiver to achieve some arbitrary cosmetic standard that has nothing to do with the gun's function, and may even compromise the integrity of the surrounding temper.

 

Enjoy the process and enjoy your gun, and don't let anyone tell you that what is functionally correct is not good enough.

 

WS

Edited January 20, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[RalphXL 9]

I welded my trigger guard on. I think it looks cleaner than the Moe Zambeak mod, no offense Moe.

 

RalphXL

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I welded my trigger guard on. I think it looks cleaner than the Moe Zambeak mod, no offense Moe.

 

RalphXL

 

To each his own brother!

 

Peace,

 

WS

[Paulyski 2,227]

I guess I'm a self indulgent, arrogant bullshit artist.

 

I reused my factory TG, flipping it backward, cut the old safety stop off of the old plate & welded it all seamlessly together.

I kinda like the results.

 

 

But if you do weld it, do be sure not to space the fact that you need to remove the mag-release spring so as not to anneal it. (I used my flux core wire feed & didn't like it, so I hit it with oxy acetylene to clean it up, but totally spaced the mag release spring near there. Thanks Elvis for the new one!)

 

For functionality, pop rivets are all good, but I'm trying to remember the last time I was at a gun shop & picked up a gun, looked at the pop rivets holding it together, was impressed with the quality workmanship & wanted to buy the gun................................................................ Still tryin' to think.................................................. It's not quite coming to me................... Maybe too much weed as a kid.

 

That being said, if I do another one, I will be using true press rivets like the rest of the gun is made with. I'll buy the tool.

Edited January 21, 2010 by Paulyski

[3ac6ucb 24]

I welded my trigger guard on. I think it looks cleaner than the Moe Zambeak mod, no offense Moe.

 

RalphXL

 

Welding FTW! (no offense to those who like rivets and bolts) When I converted mine I welded up the old FCG holes, receiver back plate and trigger guard at the same time at the good old MWR Auto Skills Center \m/

 

EDIT: Just noticed Paulyski's comment about the mag release spring. I didn't remove my spring. Was able to TIG on a Tromix guard without heat affecting the mag release area. Just be careful of how much heat you're dumping into the receiver.

Edited January 21, 2010 by 3ae6ucb

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I guess I'm a self indulgent, arrogant bullshit artist.

 

I reused my factory TG, flipping it backward, cut the old safety stop off of the old plate & welded it all seamlessly together.

I kinda like the results.

 

 

But if you do weld it, do be sure not to space the fact that you need to remove the mag-release spring so as not to anneal it. (I used my flux core wire feed & didn't like it, so I hit it with oxy acetylene to clean it up, but totally spaced the mag release spring near there. Thanks Elvis for the new one!)

 

For functionality, pop rivets are all good, but I'm trying to remember the last time I was at a gun shop & picked up a gun, looked at the pop rivets holding it together, was impressed with the quality workmanship & wanted to buy the gun................................................................ Still tryin' to think.................................................. It's not quite coming to me................... Maybe too much weed as a kid.

 

That being said, if I do another one, I will be using true press rivets like the rest of the gun is made with. I'll buy the tool.

 

To each his own Paul. If it works for you and you like it, that is what counts. I certainly wasn't referring to you as "a self indulgent, arrogant bullshit artist". I have seen your work first hand. You are a craftsman, and a perfectionist.

 

I have never seen you jump onto a thread and berate, or belittle a noob for not welding up a receiver. However, there are others that do....

 

The most recent example was a poster who suggested to newbies, that they have a muffler shop weld up AK receivers... a muffler shop... think about it.

 

After reading that post, I wondered if I shouldn't take my car to a gunsmith to have a muffler installed...

 

Whether or not you agree with me on the wisdom of applying the heat necessary to do multiple welds on a receiver, I think you will agree that a muffler shop is probably not the best place to go for your gunsmithing needs.

 

BTW, I think you are dead on with the rivet build.

 

WS

[Makc 64]

Note: Several posts of "great educational value" have been removed.

[rockmup 12]

Note: Several posts of "great educational value" have been removed.

 

 

I'm sorry. I have to quote this for the funny. Thanks

 

 

 

You can rivet it,weld it or put it together with tooth pics. (who remembers that) and it will all work. Have fun.

[3ac6ucb 24]

Note: Several posts of "great educational value" have been removed.

 

Either way works fine. Relocating the trigger leaves holes in the receiver where the old pins used to be.... which you can weld up and dress flat for a clean appearance (showing off your welding skills, I guess ) Alternatively you can stick Dinzag's black plastic plugs in the holes, or even show off your riveting skills and stick rivets in the old holes.

 

Just because you've invested in equipment to perform XYZ does not mean that people who do ABC are wrong, or merely doing it to show off.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

Note: Several posts of "great educational value" have been removed.

 

Either way works fine. Relocating the trigger leaves holes in the receiver where the old pins used to be.... which you can weld up and dress flat for a clean appearance (showing off your welding skills, I guess ) Alternatively you can stick Dinzag's black plastic plugs in the holes, or even show off your riveting skills and stick rivets in the old holes.

 

Just because you've invested in equipment to perform XYZ does not mean that people who do ABC are wrong, or merely doing it to show off.

 

 

I remember a post a while back where the poster was surprised that he had annealed the spring on the mag catch when he welded the trigger guard on. The fact is, he not only annealed the spring, but everything else that surrounded that weld.

 

Personally, I believe without question that applying welds to the receiver of a weapon compromises the integrity and temper of the metal surrounding the welds.

 

Most of the guns that have been altered in this manner have only been around for a few years, and already complaints like the one above, and issues like rear trunnions deforming, and mysterious FTC, FTE issues are fairly commonplace.

 

Welding any metal which has been tempered for a critical application is always a last resort. This is no less true for for AK receivers than it is for steel girders used in construction -- and for the same reason. In both applications a certain degree of ductility, flexion, and tensile strength are required. The steel in the Saiga receiver has had all of these elements tuned and balanced for a specific application.

 

When any of the metal in the receiver is annealed, the tensile quality of the metal goes away, ductility increases, and what was once resilient and flexible becomes soft and easily fatigued or deformed.

 

Working on Saiga receivers can be a bitch because the tempered Russian steel is of the highest quality, and it is tough, tough, material. I go through high quality drill bits at an astounding rate because they simply wear out.

 

I could make my work a great deal easier, and make my drill bits last a great deal longer if I were to take a finely focused jewelers torch, and surgically apply heat to the areas I want to drill and tap, and don't think I haven't thought about it as I pony up hard cash for another set of drill bits and taps... BUT, that would be a very bad idea....

 

Because, as the S12 discharges and sending the bolt carrier and bolt backward, and then forward -- the receiver flexes as the bolt carrier moves back and forth. It happens so fast we cant see it, but it each and every time the gun discharges, the metal of the receiver expands and contracts.

 

The problem with annealing odd areas of the receiver is that the molecules in the newly annealed areas expand and contract at a different rate, and rearrange themselves in a different way than the factory milled and tempered areas of the receiver.

 

The long and short of the issue is, when you have one contiguous structure (some areas stronger, and some areas weaker) expanding and contracting at different rates, eventually, you got problems.

 

So, my reservations concerning welding Saiga receivers have everything to do with "substance", and nothing to do with "style".

 

That being said, I wish all good luck with their projects and outcomes.

 

WS

Edited February 8, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[Bvamp 604]

the only reason the guns are riveted and not spot welded is to make them serviceable in the field by nearly anyone. Its as simple as that.

 

 

I think welding them is by far a better route to go, but for authenticity's sake, riveting is proper, I suppose.