Magwell Reliability, better than rock and lock?

[zulu3006 0]

Hey guys, I just got a saiga, still waiting on parts that the post office lost and finally found. I hear stories of full capacity magazines breaking when loaded with 3" heavy shells. I'm wondering if installing a magwell would enhance reliability, not just in this instance, but in overall operation. I'm not as concerned with fast mag changes as I am with solid reliability. Thanks.

[towerofpower93 22]

I've never had a mag break on me from recoil, but I do like the additional support the magwell gives. And though you're not concerned with fast mag changes, it is nicer than rock and lock IMO.

 

Eric

[going12220 125]

[Rickj427 15]

I don't know if your interested in ever putting on drum on the gun, but neither the ProMag nor MD20 will work with a magwell. That's the only reason why I never went with a magwell.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Magwells would be better for American made mag COLD WEATHER reliability, as the American mags have no steel in the feed lip.

 

However, you lose the ability to use Drums once you install the Mag-well.

 

If you look at the picture, you'll see differing front lips. Only the Russian 8 & Russian 5 are reinforced with steel.

The American manufacturers copied the Russian 8's & used the smaller shape but failed to reinforce them in the front lips. In freezing temps, the polymer is brittle & can snap.

Pictured are what the mag manufactures did to remedy this. Look at the 2 different SureFires. They widened the lips to distribute force to stronger areas. AGPs used to be thin too, but they widened the front like surefire did for added reliability The Russian 8 is FAR superior in strength due to the front steel reinforcement & mil-spec polymer.

The AGP is good polymer & so is the surefire. The Promag sucks, but they rarely work because their so soft & the mags colapse in & hold shells up, so only limited -20 weather testing has been done.

The MD-20 is made out of the best mil-speck polymer of the US mags & has a steel reinforced front lip.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2010 by Paulyski

[Zambidis 90]

I don't know if your interested in ever putting on drum on the gun, but neither the ProMag nor MD20 will work with a magwell. That's the only reason why I never went with a magwell.

 

I have both a magwell and a MD20. I personally find the mag well to be the better setup for most things. I think a mag well is one of the best additions I've made to my S12.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I don't know if your interested in ever putting on drum on the gun, but neither the ProMag nor MD20 will work with a magwell. That's the only reason why I never went with a magwell.

 

I have both a magwell and a MD20. I personally find the mag well to be the better setup for most things. I think a mag well is one of the best additions I've made to my S12.

I'm fielding an idea that will combine the two.

It'll work too!

Stay tuned.....

Edited March 27, 2010 by Paulyski

[bigj480 203]

I'm fielding an idea that will combine the two.

It'll work too!

Stay tuned.....

 

Wouldn't a mag well with the sides notched for the drum body work? I mean, it's not the left to right support that keeps a mag locked in when using a mag well.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I'm fielding an idea that will combine the two.

It'll work too!

Stay tuned.....

 

Wouldn't a mag well with the sides notched for the drum body work? I mean, it's not the left to right support that keeps a mag locked in when using a mag well.

Fuck a mag well.

 

You only need 2 faces to ensure nothing gets hung up upon quick installation if the front of the mag hits first.

I'm amazed nobody has done it before.

Just 2 Small pieces. Front & rear guides in the correct shapes, angles & set at the proper places.

Easy peesy.

 

ETA:

This wouldn't increase the durability of NON steel reinforced mags though.

Just make loading easier.

I have Russian 8s & the MD-20, so I don't need to worry about breakage.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Paulyski

[BobAsh 582]

Paulyski is correct; it would be easy to design a magwell to work for mags and drum.

 

I'd buy one.

Edited March 27, 2010 by BobAsh

[bigj480 203]

I'm fielding an idea that will combine the two.

It'll work too!

Stay tuned.....

 

Wouldn't a mag well with the sides notched for the drum body work? I mean, it's not the left to right support that keeps a mag locked in when using a mag well.

Fuck a mag well.

 

You only need 2 faces to ensure nothing gets hung up upon quick installation if the front of the mag hits first.

I'm amazed nobody has done it before.

Just 2 Small pieces. Front & rear guides in the correct shapes, angles & set at the proper places.

Easy peesy.

 

Six one way half a dozen the other, same principle. What are you waiting for? Make one so I can buy it.

Edited March 27, 2010 by bigj480

[Paulyski 2,227]

Maybe I will, but i'm sure the idea will get snaked as soon as competition sees how simple it is.

We likely have a bunch of people looking into how to do it already now that I've mentioned it.

I lack startup capitol for a professional run & my credit isn't so hot, so I would be easy to knock off real quick. I don't have the $$$ to do a patent let alone fight to keep it.

 

The part that would make it work is primarily a piece of steel straddling the Mag release & set just slightly forward of the current mag opening. it would be against the back of the mag when seated.

You push the front of the mag in first, & the rear guide guides the rear into place (consequently the front too) without hanging up on anything.

It could be incorporated into a trigger guard nicely. hint hint

Kinda like this "high quality" depiction but the mag release would be straddled. An extended mag release would be helpful, as I would bend the metal back on it's self for support (which is why it is triangular rather than L shaped)

 

 

The front part would be quite small & I'm not sure even needed so long as you push the mag front first into the gun.

Maybe pair the rear guide with the new tippit that Carolina supplies.

 

I just like to throw ideas out there. I find it fun just to figure out fixes. This is only a hoby, not a big business for me.

The Lord keeps me fed as it is.

I don't know if I want the stress of manufacturing full time when I'm not working.

Edited March 27, 2010 by Paulyski

[towerofpower93 22]

I don't know if your interested in ever putting on drum on the gun, but neither the ProMag nor MD20 will work with a magwell. That's the only reason why I never went with a magwell.

 

I have both a magwell and a MD20. I personally find the mag well to be the better setup for most things. I think a mag well is one of the best additions I've made to my S12.

I'm fielding an idea that will combine the two.

It'll work too!

Stay tuned.....

 

 

Very interested.

[starman 1]

Paulyski

 

I really like the looks of the wooden furniture on the Saiga 12 in post number 5. Did you make the furniture or did you purchase it somewhere?

[bigj480 203]

I'm not quite following your idea, Paulyski. If you still have to insert the front of the mag first, isn't that still the "rock and lock" method? Sounds more like a mag guide and those already exist and work fine with drums. I'm assuming that the goal is to do away with the "rock and lock" system and still be able to use drums.

 

No front lug? Would it be possible to simply mill the lower portion of the front trunnion mag catch area and be able to effectively just push the mag up into place without the "rock and lock" method? The top of the front trunnion mag catch area would still be there to prevent over insertion and the rear mag catch would surely lock in the mag. The only question is if the front of the mag would be secure enough to prevent it from being pulled down and out of the receiver. If not, what about a spring loaded lower mag catch? Sure it would take some work, but not much and you could use unmodified mags, you wouldn't have to do the "rock and lock" and you wouldn't have anything hanging under your receiver.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I'm just talking about a mostly rear, little front guide to quickly insert rock & lock mags & drums. in the dark, under pressure & on a closed bolt. (I know only 19 can load on a closed bolt on drums)

My Russian mags are reinforced with steel, so I don't want to screw with them.

 

The idea I'm talking about isn't a magwell by any means. It's a guide system to speed things up, but keep stuff stock.

 

Did you say someone already makes a front & rear guide that works with drums?

If so, I guess I'm too late, could you PM a link?

Edited March 28, 2010 by Paulyski

[bigj480 203]

The idea I'm talking about isn't a magwell by any means. It's a guide system to speed things up, but keep stuff stock.

I see.

Did you say someone already makes a front & rear guide that works with drums?

If so, I guess I'm too late, could you PM a link?

No one makes a rear guide that I know of.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Actually, a Y shaped piece of steel with a channel down the middle for the mag-release & the ears bent down would be easier to make now that I think about it more.

Bending a flat back would require welding & would be flimsier. This way an extended mag release would fit right in between the TG & guide & look right too.

[GuyFoX 24]

Paulyski is correct; it would be easy to design a magwell to work for mags and drum.

I'd buy one.

 

I can't comment on how easy it would be to design(though I'd think if it was that easy we would have seen one by now), but hell yeah, me and most everyone here would buy one too.

 

I was trying to dig up some info on Mike D's magwell, since the magwell/MD-20 compatibility was the one thing that made me question ordering a drum. I managed to find a post Mike D made a year or two ago saying that he was planning on releasing a standard magwell, and then a drum compatible magwell after that. I think this may have been before he really got going on the doublestack mags though so that may have changed... Now he's saying that his magwell will work with both single & double-stack mags, but has been conspicuously avoiding the many questions of whether it will also accept an MD-20(that would be SO MONEY if one magwell worked with all 3!!!), or if not if he still plans on releasing a drum magwell as well???

[Paulyski 2,227]

Paulyski is correct; it would be easy to design a magwell to work for mags and drum.

I'd buy one.

 

I can't comment on how easy it would be to design(though I'd think if it was that easy we would have seen one by now)

Existing products are far more abundant & easier to clone then improve on than new ideas are to come up with.

Just think about how many idiotically simple products come out & you think, "Why didn't I think about that?" Or in my case, walking through stores & seeing something new & thinking "I thought of that 5 years ago!" (Like this handle that makes it easier to wash the inside of your windshield without being a contortionist)

 

I have a strong feeling that this question will be answered in not too long of a while.

Some of the manufactures have spent some time on this thread & not posted......

We'll see.