Military Armament Corp M10

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

I would just like to point out how well mannered the Saiga Forum business members are. Mr. Lage, even while being verbally attacked, has yet to fire in return with anything slanderous. He, in fact, has offered nothing less then an opportunity for anyone experiencing the problems macaholic is talking about a chance to correct them.

BRAVO MR. LAGE!

Nice to see true professionals conducting themselves in a professional manner.

 

Semper Fi,

MCASSgt New River

[macaholic 5]

I would just like to point out how well mannered the Saiga Forum business members are. Mr. Lage, even while being verbally attacked, has yet to fire in return with anything slanderous. He, in fact, has offered nothing less then an opportunity for anyone experiencing the problems macaholic is talking about a chance to correct them.

BRAVO MR. LAGE!

Nice to see true professionals conducting themselves in a professional manner.

 

Semper Fi,

MCASSgt New River

 

 

Before throwing baseless accusations at me for making personal attacks, wouldn't it be a good idea to at least make an honest attempt at getting your facts straight? I have personally attacked no one! I have simply stated the facts based on my own personal experience and referred to others with the same experience as requested by Mr. Lage himself. Yes I do believe that the Lage upper and other after market slowfire uppers, are at best boarderline, and at worst, down right dangerous for the very reasons I and other members on other sites have posted. My posts on this matter for the most part, are based on safety issues. A random runaway is a very serious situation that every shooter should go out of his way to avoid. And when I see this very thing happening on more than one occassion, and read the accounts of other individuals experiencing the same occurance, that tells me that there is a problem with that particular product. Namely, the Lage upper and other slowfire uppers designed to slow the cyclic rate of the Ingram model 10 and Daniels model 11 9mm. My biggest concern is that eventually, some poor unknowing individual is going to suffer a severe injury or God Forbid, accidental death as the result of a random runaway produced by one of these after market uppers. I am an experienced competitive shooter, intimately familiar with the mechanical design of numerous title 2 weapons, and I highly discourage the mechanical tampering and/or modification of such weapons, based on the fact that it can and does produce an unsafe weapon, possibly resulting in severe injury or death. This is a very unique sport we are involved in, made up of many different people and most of them are very good people. The last thing we need is to have someone being injured by taking part in the practice of tampering with the mechnical design of a sub machinegun, or doing things with it that he/she has no business doing. Lastly, if my method of personal communication seems curt, it's due to the severity of content in this discussion.

Edited August 7, 2010 by macaholic

[MrM4 3]

Blah Blah Blah, same garbage new site. But thanks for your "expert opinion".

 

If anyone would like to read the actual shooters account of the event please see what he has to say in his own words.

 

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54929

 

POST #13

 

 

"I just went over to the forum from Richard's link. It was my M-11 with the Lage upper that Macaholic is talking about with the run away. It's true, it dumped the entire mag. Had to switch guns mid match. The Lage upper worked fine with hundreds of test rounds before the match, so I cleaned the gun & upper for the match (gun was absolutely filthy from before) and it malfunctioned on the first bay.

 

I have since sold that Lage upper (I owned two, still have one) to a fellow competitor and it has worked flawlessly now for about three years through thousands and thousands of rounds. I have not shot that particular M-11 since the incident (too many MGs I guess), but I am 100% confident that it was a worn or out-of-spec sear that caused the problem, not the Lage upper.

 

The Lage upper is a FANTASTIC upper and Richard's support and reputation is way way above the average. I am appreciative of his products and efforts for the industry and while I have never had the privledge of meeting or speaking to him directly (only email), I wish he would have brought his upper to market 5 years earlier as he would have saved me a bunch of money from buying other guns. Well, that probably isn't entirely true as I always swear this is my last C3 purchase ever ... at least until the next one! THANKS RICHARD LAGE!!!!"

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Blah Blah Blah, same garbage new site. But thanks for your "expert opinion".

 

If anyone would like to read the actual shooters account of the event please see what he has to say in his own words.

 

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54929

 

POST #13

 

 

"I just went over to the forum from Richard's link. It was my M-11 with the Lage upper that Macaholic is talking about with the run away. It's true, it dumped the entire mag. Had to switch guns mid match. The Lage upper worked fine with hundreds of test rounds before the match, so I cleaned the gun & upper for the match (gun was absolutely filthy from before) and it malfunctioned on the first bay.

 

I have since sold that Lage upper (I owned two, still have one) to a fellow competitor and it has worked flawlessly now for about three years through thousands and thousands of rounds. I have not shot that particular M-11 since the incident (too many MGs I guess), but I am 100% confident that it was a worn or out-of-spec sear that caused the problem, not the Lage upper.

 

The Lage upper is a FANTASTIC upper and Richard's support and reputation is way way above the average. I am appreciative of his products and efforts for the industry and while I have never had the privledge of meeting or speaking to him directly (only email), I wish he would have brought his upper to market 5 years earlier as he would have saved me a bunch of money from buying other guns. Well, that probably isn't entirely true as I always swear this is my last C3 purchase ever ... at least until the next one! THANKS RICHARD LAGE!!!!"

 

 

[raidersfan_5544 57]

BUSTED

Edited August 10, 2010 by raidersfan_5544

[YARP 300]

Sigh....macaholic seems to have stuck his wicky in the ticky and now we are all awaiting for the inevitable boom boom....stupid

 

SOOOOO back on topic. Nice MCASSgt New River, more vids yet? If I may put in a request? Watermelons, lots of'em and milk jugs with dye in them, and pumpkins can't forget those. I could go on for days!

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

Sigh....macaholic seems to have stuck his wicky in the ticky and now we are all awaiting for the inevitable boom boom....stupid

 

SOOOOO back on topic. Nice MCASSgt New River, more vids yet? If I may put in a request? Watermelons, lots of'em and milk jugs with dye in them, and pumpkins can't forget those. I could go on for days!

 

Thanks YARP! No new vid's as of yet. I'm saving up for 1k rounds to make new ones. The M10 eats and eats and eats...need to save up some. Or get a 9mm kit...Hmmm LAGE Slow-fire kit!! Ooooo, yes LAGE!!

 

Too bad your in MI, I'd say bring all the watermelons, milk jugs with dye in them, and pumpkins you want...your ammo supply to of course and have fun. I almost get as much enjoyment watching other people shoot my shot then shooting it myself.

[MrM4 3]

Ive found shooting Clays against a bank is fun with a Lage upper, these things shoot great. If you practice shooting 3 inch clays when it comes time for a match 6 inch plates seem easy.

[macaholic 5]

Blah Blah Blah, same garbage new site. But thanks for your "expert opinion".

 

If anyone would like to read the actual shooters account of the event please see what he has to say in his own words.

 

http://www.uzitalk.c...ead.php?t=54929

 

POST #13

 

 

"I just went over to the forum from Richard's link. It was my M-11 with the Lage upper that Macaholic is talking about with the run away. It's true, it dumped the entire mag. Had to switch guns mid match. The Lage upper worked fine with hundreds of test rounds before the match, so I cleaned the gun & upper for the match (gun was absolutely filthy from before) and it malfunctioned on the first bay.

 

I have since sold that Lage upper (I owned two, still have one) to a fellow competitor and it has worked flawlessly now for about three years through thousands and thousands of rounds. I have not shot that particular M-11 since the incident (too many MGs I guess), but I am 100% confident that it was a worn or out-of-spec sear that caused the problem, not the Lage upper.

 

The Lage upper is a FANTASTIC upper and Richard's support and reputation is way way above the average. I am appreciative of his products and efforts for the industry and while I have never had the privledge of meeting or speaking to him directly (only email), I wish he would have brought his upper to market 5 years earlier as he would have saved me a bunch of money from buying other guns. Well, that probably isn't entirely true as I always swear this is my last C3 purchase ever ... at least until the next one! THANKS RICHARD LAGE!!!!"

 

Well, by his own admission the gun did produce a random runaway and as requested, I referred to this individual as a personal account other than my own. However, If you still do not, or just plain choose not to believe my personal testimony regarding this particular safety issue associated with this slowfire upper. Then you are welcome to continue running this after market upper on your own gun, untill this occurrence happens to you. Then, you will be able to give your own personal account, and will no longer need to rely on the account of others, or question my genuinity in regards to this subject. Untill then, good luck friend.

Edited August 14, 2010 by macaholic

[MrM4 3]

 

 

Then you are welcome to continue running this after market upper on your own gun

 

 

Thats the plan for me and pretty much everyone who has every owned a Lage upper.

[jmacken37 4]

 

 

Then you are welcome to continue running this after market upper on your own gun

 

 

Thats the plan for me and pretty much everyone who has every owned a Lage upper.

 

Exactly! Lage Mfg's gear is of MUCH higher quality than the other pot-metal crap that came with my gun. If I could stick Mr. Lage in a time machine, I'd have him make my Mac lower, too (and pick me up 4 or 5,000 DIAS' and another 10K of HK sears).

 

Jake

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Open-bolt subguns running away are usually caused by a worn-out sear. The only way I can think of a heavier bolt weight causing the same issue would be if it managed to hit that perfect sweet spot, where the bolt runs far enough back to eject the spent casing then grab the next cartridge off the stack, but fails to travel far enough backward to engage the sear and lock the bolt back - this would have to be engineered, the bolt weight carefully matched to the cartridge used to produce this effect. If you're using any factory load I know of, that bolt weight will not cause a problem. If you spent the time developing the right load, you could find the "sweet spot" to cause that dangerous condition. I've heard of people with open-bolt semi-autos doing exactly that to produce full-auto bursts of questionable legality.

 

A police department near where I live has a similar issue with their bone-stock Steyr MPi 81. Pull the trigger, and it dumps at least several more rounds than you intend, and sometimes the whole mag - with the weapon disassembled, you can tell at a glance that the sear is the problem. If anyone knows where to get replacement FCG parts for that subgun, PM me and you could help me help my class III guy make a certain police department a happy customer.

 

I've used a few weapons with Lage uppers, and I've talked to Mr. Lage on the phone a few times. When I get my M11, there will be a Lage upper on it. The guy gives a shit and loves what he does. He does business honestly and he crafts a superior product.

[macaholic 5]

Open-bolt subguns running away are usually caused by a worn-out sear. The only way I can think of a heavier bolt weight causing the same issue would be if it managed to hit that perfect sweet spot, where the bolt runs far enough back to eject the spent casing then grab the next cartridge off the stack, but fails to travel far enough backward to engage the sear and lock the bolt back - this would have to be engineered, the bolt weight carefully matched to the cartridge used to produce this effect. If you're using any factory load I know of, that bolt weight will not cause a problem. If you spent the time developing the right load, you could find the "sweet spot" to cause that dangerous condition. I've heard of people with open-bolt semi-autos doing exactly that to produce full-auto bursts of questionable legality.

 

A police department near where I live has a similar issue with their bone-stock Steyr MPi 81. Pull the trigger, and it dumps at least several more rounds than you intend, and sometimes the whole mag - with the weapon disassembled, you can tell at a glance that the sear is the problem. If anyone knows where to get replacement FCG parts for that subgun, PM me and you could help me help my class III guy make a certain police department a happy customer.

 

I've used a few weapons with Lage uppers, and I've talked to Mr. Lage on the phone a few times. When I get my M11, there will be a Lage upper on it. The guy gives a shit and loves what he does. He does business honestly and he crafts a superior product.

 

Have fun!

[Eric Pate 478]

Jesus now he's on the Saiga forum too? Give it a rest man.

 

FYI theres alot more useful discussion going on at Uzitalk these days without the constant "Stock vs. Aftermarket" debate.

[macaholic 5]

Jesus now he's on the Saiga forum too? Give it a rest man.

 

FYI theres alot more useful discussion going on at Uzitalk these days without the constant "Stock vs. Aftermarket" debate.

 

 

If the discusion on Uzitalk were so much more enjoyable in my absence, why then are you over here posting in respons to me? Obviously, there must be something about my message that draws you, and other members of that site, like blood to a vampire. Otherwise, you would not put forth the emotional effort. Anyway, its good to hear from old aquaintences. Welcome friend!

Edited August 28, 2010 by macaholic

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

Macaholic,

 

 

It has come to my attention, through your posts and invaluable expertise, that your are a troll. The simple presence of you in my thread has caused it to turn into more of a MAC (read, dinky penis) measuring contest. It it plaining obvious that your commentary is not wanted, logical or with merit. Please excuse yourself, and verbal excretion, from my thread.

 

This is my one and only warning for you.

 

Respectfully,

MCASSgt New River

[macaholic 5]

Macaholic,

 

 

It has come to my attention, through your posts and invaluable expertise, that your are a troll. The simple presence of you in my thread has caused it to turn into more of a MAC (read, dinky penis) measuring contest. It it plaining obvious that your commentary is not wanted, logical or with merit. Please excuse yourself, and verbal excretion, from my thread.

 

This is my one and only warning for you.

 

Respectfully,

MCASSgt New River

 

Well exuse me for speaking my mind on an open discusion board. I could care less who has the longest of the short penises, and you were the one who started the Mac topic in the first place. My original response to you was one in friendship and sincerity in an attempt to share some technical insight. It's not my fault that some of your other readers can't verbaly hold their own, without getting thier poor little sensitive ego's bruised. By the way, I saw your video's and it looked like you did a pretty good job of managing the cyclic rate of a factory Mac, and had no problem hitting your intended targets. Anyway, if you don't want me on your thread for what ever reason that's your choice. I stand firm on my knowledge, personal experience and veiwpoints regardless. If so be it, good luck and many happy day's ahead.

Edited August 28, 2010 by macaholic

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Macaholic,

 

 

It has come to my attention, through your posts and invaluable expertise, that your are a troll. The simple presence of you in my thread has caused it to turn into more of a MAC (read, dinky penis) measuring contest. It it plaining obvious that your commentary is not wanted, logical or with merit. Please excuse yourself, and verbal excretion, from my thread.

 

This is my one and only warning for you.

 

Respectfully,

MCASSgt New River

 

Well exuse me for speaking my mind on an open discusion board. I could care less who has the longest of the short penises, and you were the one who started the Mac topic in the first place. My original response to you was one in friendship and sincerity in an attempt to share some technical insight. It's not my fault that some of your other readers can't verbaly hold their own, without getting thier poor little sensitive ego's bruised. By the way, I saw your video's and it looked like you did a pretty good job of managing the cyclic rate of a factory Mac, and had no problem hitting your intended targets. Anyway, if you don't want me on your thread for what ever reason that's your choice. I stand firm on my knowledge, personal experience and veiwpoints regardless. If so be it, good luck and many happy day's ahead.

 

In all seriousness, if you have "technical insight" to share beyond an unsupported statement that Mr. Lage's uppers cause an unsafe condition, I would love to hear it. "I saw it happen" isn't technical insight. "The added weight of the bolt causes excessive sear wear" would be an example of technical insight (if true).

 

If you have something useful to share, and can back it up with legitimate technical insight, your input will be welcomed. As it is, it just seems like you have an irrational opinion based on a fixation on one event. I can understand this to some extent; I don't trust Beretta 92s after having one catastrophically fail on me. I don't try to convince everyone that will talk to me that they're dangerous.

 

So, how do Lage uppers cause a dangerous condition? PM me if you would like to end the thread hijack.

 

My apologies, MCASSgt New River, for continuing on this tangent. I'm still jealous; you have an SMG and I don't. Everyone should have a metal box that spits lead.

[MrM4 3]

Jesus now he's on the Saiga forum too? Give it a rest man.

 

FYI theres alot more useful discussion going on at Uzitalk these days without the constant "Stock vs. Aftermarket" debate.

 

 

If the discusion on Uzitalk were so much more enjoyable in my absence, why then are you over here posting in respons to me? Obviously, there must be something about my message that draws you, and other members of that site, like blood to a vampire. Otherwise, you would not put forth the emotional effort. Anyway, its good to hear from old aquaintences. Welcome friend!

 

1. We where here before you.

2. You have a dislike of Richard and you make a point to attack his products on every forum that you visit.

3. Your a jerk to everyone who has ever touched a Lage upper.

4. There is a large group that likes to see you get your troll ass kicked on every board you to choose to waste bandwidth on.

5. Try to last 6 more post Macoholic before being banned here. I took 6 posts in the pool for "how long before hes banned from this one" Pretty good take for whoever wins, but in the end everyone wins when you get banned.

 

Carry On

 

 

MCASSgt New River

 

I probelly owe you an "im sorry" myself for feeding the troll. Congrats again on the new sub gun. We held the Fun Gun Shoot on my Range last weekend, the top 2 spots in the Sub Gun Match were Lages followed by an Uzi, pretty hard to argue with that kind of showing.

Edited September 2, 2010 by MrM4

[az doug 0]

If it isnt our old friend macoholic or as he thinks of himself "god". I see your here telling the same lies and slander that got you banned from uzitalk.com. Hopefully people here will see threw your BS quickly.

 

I was banned from Uzitalk for telling lies and makeing slanderous statements ? Well how about going to the Mac 10 site on Uzitalk, and read the thread posted by Trident 9, titled, My first runaway.

 

Macaholic, do you mean the thread where Trident9 (no space between trident and 9) readily admits that his sear is rounded at the top? As we both know that can cause a runaway gun and as the sear slips off/out of the sear engagement of the bolt it can start to round it over as well. We also know many M-11/9mm sears are soft and easily round over, which is an SWD problem, NOT a Lage Mfg problem. A couple of people, one of which is Richard Lage, have made, or are making, hardened sears for the M-11/9mm. FWIW, I have two M-11/9mm's with Lage uppers and my son owns a third. Both of us have been using them for years and we have not had any issues with our Lage uppers.

[az doug 0]

MCASSgt New Rive,

 

Congrats on your new gun and thanks for the video. I also think you shot well.