S-12 Longevity Between Cleanings

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I have an unconverted, completely un-modded, '08 three-hole, S-12. I've disassembled it numerous times buy never really cleaned it since I got it. I've put around 500 shells through it, and two to three hundred shells through it since it began eating bird shot.

 

I took it to the range today and intentionally brought along some Winchester Western (the white bulk-pack) clay and bird shells. Of course these are very low brass shells filled with #8 shot exiting the barrel at no more than 1200 feet per second, as you all know. I took them today with the intention to see just what my weapon would NOT cycle.

 

Lo and behold, she ate them on the #2 setting as fast as I could load, and fire, them. It wasn't until I had fired over thirty rounds that she decided to become a bolt-action. I knew, at that moment, that I had reached the pinnacle of rounds fired through it without cleaning because she was flat eating these shells flawlessly until then. When I got home and got her apart my reasoning was re-assured because she was so dirty I literally had to pound out the puck. The gunk that had formed inside the gas tube was horrendous and I really hated to go this long without cleaning her, but you have to know your limitations, it's just one more part of knowing your weapon.

 

I'm of the reasoning that 500 shells (of varying quality) is pretty good for a semi-auto 12 gauge without cleaning, but I'd like to know if this is somewhat normal or a low number when it comes to round count between cleanings.

 

For those of you that have completely converted S-12s, how many shells do you put through them before cleaning?

 

I fully intend to clean her every time I shoot her from now on, I just wanted to see what she'd take before she quit functioning properly.

 

One more thing, when I do convert, and I WILL, since she functions so well the way she is, how can I convert her and keep the most amount of "stock" parts in her as possible? I only ask because she runs as good as my AR, when she's clean, and I'd like to convert her to her true form but keep her functioning the way she should. Can I keep my trigger group for the most part or am I stuck with a G2 or better? What I'm saying is: I don't want to fix what ain't broke, so to speak...

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Well, it's pretty pointless to try and adapt the stock trigger to the converted gun. The factory trigger itself is separated from the disconnector and meant to work with a linkage, also it's not a good idea to mix FCG parts, I have heard that can cause problems.

 

For a basic conversion, all you need is a TAPCO G2, AK Pistol Grip and an AK Stock. And of course a PG nut, retaining plate, and either a new trigger guard or re-use the stock one. Or get a trigger guard like the Tromix or RAM one with the PG nut built in, kills two birds with one stone. That's all you need for function and 922r.

[patriot 7,197]

I clean every vouple of hundred shots whether it needs it or not. Ballistol is your friend.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

She's a fine weapon as is, but really IMO what you have is a diamond in the rough...or the way I look at a new unconverted S-12, it's like a blank canvas waiting to see what kind of new art form you can get out of it. I built my first one into the closest thing I could get to a classic AK-74, chambered for 12 ga. I wanted it to blow minds when seen at gun shows or anywhere else I took it, as back in 2005, the S-12 was still relatively new, to downright unheard of to most people in the US, even serious "gun nuts". It worked. Everywhere I took it, I would hear whispers and comments like "wow what is that, some kind of heavy barrel AK?"....just the reaction I wanted. I had achieved my goal...custom building a 12 ga shotgun that looked and felt as much like a true classic AK as possible. They are one of my most favorite weapon platforms so when I discovered the Saiga, which came in all different calibers and guages, I was immediately in love with them and on a mission to get at least one of each to add to my collection. Since they are basically a real AK that's been masked to try and look like a sporter model hunting weapon, they are perfect for someone who loves the AK battle rifles and enjoys the many different styles and options available from different countries of origin. I enjoy taking them from their "in the rough" state, to whatever my imagination can come up with using all the many different AK parts on the market now, and other parts that can be made.

Aside from custom building each one, I enjoy shooting them just as much. What you have there is IMO the best shotgun on the planet, and it's now your responsibility to get all you can out of it. There are many different things you can do to improve it's performance and get the most out of your new weapon. I would begin by noting all the characteristics about it, which can be considered it's weak points, and start doing all you can to change all of these from weaknesses to strengths. To me, the weakest or most undesirable features of the stock S-12 are the front heavy, unbalanced way the weapon handles and operates, with the PG having been removed from the design, and replaced by that horrendous, abomination which is the poor excuse for the trigger, with the added parts to transfer the actual trigger so far back from where it belongs, right beneath the sear. That spongy feeling when you squeeze off a round, just does not belong. Get rid of that first. In order to do that, you need to get a new trigger guard put up there right behind the mag release where it belongs, or modify and reuse the one that came on it. Then as soon as you have done all the necessary changes to stay within the law, and it is 922 R compliant, the next weakest link is the sights. Performance wise, do some reading around the site here and check out all the stickies, and read the tech section as much as you can. There are some key things that will definitely make it run better.

Feel free to ask questions because there are lots of folks here who like to help. Browse through the S-12 picture thread if you want to see lots of different creative options that have been done by our members.

When you figure out what you want it to look like, and are actually ready to convert it, or "restore" it as some of the new guys like to say...please look first through our list of on site vendors, and our respective business section sub forums. There you can find lots of things we all offer to the Saiga market, along with questions, answers, and feedback about our products. There, and by clicking on our banners you can check out the websites of those of us who have our own sites. Some of us who don't have our own sites yet (like me), use our sub forums to advertise our various parts and services. Please take a little time to check these out and help support the vendors who keep this great site going.

Welcome to the club! Let us know how we can help you.

 

 

[ktcm7271 999]

I put about 1,000 rounds through mine once without cleaning the gas tube and puck. It still cycled fine, but I won't make that mistake again. I couldn't get the adjuster off, I had to ask these guys for advice. I ended up putting a breaker bar on some hard, flat steel to break it loose. I had to use a lathe and scotch brite to clean the puck. My S-12 is a 4 hole and worked great stock, but after the conversion, it was even better. The trigger assembly is night and day. You won't regret it.

[patriot 7,197]

If you need to remove heavy carbon from the gas puck again, pour a little Simple Green or Ballistol (don't mix them, it REALLY stinks!) in a dish. Soak the puck in it overnight. Wipe carbon off.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Thanks for the replies and the advice.

 

1,000 rounds, wow, that's friggin' awesome even if you have to chip the carbon out with a chisel that just testifies to the awesomeness of these weapons.

 

Yeah, I'm not real impressed with the stock trigger. I remember when I first got her, I pulled the dust cover, recoil spring and bolt out of the weapon and I looked at the trigger and thought, "WTF were they thinking?" I just don't want to convert it and end up having to continually modify the weapon to get it back to the super reliable state that it's in now. I've seen on here where some guys have bought brand-new parts and ended up having to rip the weapon back apart and re-profile their hammer or other such because the parts weren't made properly to begin with. I just think that it's incredibly sad that some of these companies don't have any better quality control...

 

I think that I'm destined to go with a trigger guard from Tromix though, I love the three angle look and I have a SAW grip on my AR and friggin' love it.

 

I'm not sure who to use for the fcg, I haven't been real impressed with what I've found on the net from Tapco, who else is out there at a decent price? I mean, I don't mind paying a little extra for the trigger group since, in my opinion, it's the most important functioning system on the weapon.

 

I'm just so glad I don't have to open up the ports any at all!

[ktcm7271 999]

Thanks for the replies and the advice.

 

1,000 rounds, wow, that's friggin' awesome even if you have to chip the carbon out with a chisel that just testifies to the awesomeness of these weapons.

 

Yeah, I'm not real impressed with the stock trigger. I remember when I first got her, I pulled the dust cover, recoil spring and bolt out of the weapon and I looked at the trigger and thought, "WTF were they thinking?" I just don't want to convert it and end up having to continually modify the weapon to get it back to the super reliable state that it's in now. I've seen on here where some guys have bought brand-new parts and ended up having to rip the weapon back apart and re-profile their hammer or other such because the parts weren't made properly to begin with. I just think that it's incredibly sad that some of these companies don't have any better quality control...

 

I think that I'm destined to go with a trigger guard from Tromix though, I love the three angle look and I have a SAW grip on my AR and friggin' love it.

 

I'm not sure who to use for the fcg, I haven't been real impressed with what I've found on the net from Tapco, who else is out there at a decent price? I mean, I don't mind paying a little extra for the trigger group since, in my opinion, it's the most important functioning system on the weapon.

 

I'm just so glad I don't have to open up the ports any at all!

 

I got most of my stuff from Carolina Shooters Supply, the fcg is already ground where needed. I made my own tiger maple furniture. If you like the SAW grip, try the Hogue for your S-12, that rubber takes some of the bite out of slugs and buck.

[ktcm7271 999]

If you need to remove heavy carbon from the gas puck again, pour a little Simple Green or Ballistol (don't mix them, it REALLY stinks!) in a dish. Soak the puck in it overnight. Wipe carbon off.

 

Simple Green is awesome. I used orange citrus spray and a brush inside the tube for that big clean out, and I bent some weld wire for the gas holes.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Thanks for the replies and the advice.

 

1,000 rounds, wow, that's friggin' awesome even if you have to chip the carbon out with a chisel that just testifies to the awesomeness of these weapons.

 

Yeah, I'm not real impressed with the stock trigger. I remember when I first got her, I pulled the dust cover, recoil spring and bolt out of the weapon and I looked at the trigger and thought, "WTF were they thinking?" I just don't want to convert it and end up having to continually modify the weapon to get it back to the super reliable state that it's in now. I've seen on here where some guys have bought brand-new parts and ended up having to rip the weapon back apart and re-profile their hammer or other such because the parts weren't made properly to begin with. I just think that it's incredibly sad that some of these companies don't have any better quality control...

 

I think that I'm destined to go with a trigger guard from Tromix though, I love the three angle look and I have a SAW grip on my AR and friggin' love it.

 

I'm not sure who to use for the fcg, I haven't been real impressed with what I've found on the net from Tapco, who else is out there at a decent price? I mean, I don't mind paying a little extra for the trigger group since, in my opinion, it's the most important functioning system on the weapon.

 

I'm just so glad I don't have to open up the ports any at all!

 

Have you used the G2 before? It's a very crisp single stage trigger, easily one of their best products. Tromix sells an already modified version for S12. Their reputation definitely skips this product, it is very nice and I'd say 4/5 the conversions out there have the G2 in there.

 

If you use one of the different brands you will likely have to modify it yourself or have it modified, as the S12 uses a hammer with a different shape than a standard AK trigger group.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Thanks for the replies and the advice.

 

1,000 rounds, wow, that's friggin' awesome even if you have to chip the carbon out with a chisel that just testifies to the awesomeness of these weapons.

 

Yeah, I'm not real impressed with the stock trigger. I remember when I first got her, I pulled the dust cover, recoil spring and bolt out of the weapon and I looked at the trigger and thought, "WTF were they thinking?" I just don't want to convert it and end up having to continually modify the weapon to get it back to the super reliable state that it's in now. I've seen on here where some guys have bought brand-new parts and ended up having to rip the weapon back apart and re-profile their hammer or other such because the parts weren't made properly to begin with. I just think that it's incredibly sad that some of these companies don't have any better quality control...

 

I think that I'm destined to go with a trigger guard from Tromix though, I love the three angle look and I have a SAW grip on my AR and friggin' love it.

 

I'm not sure who to use for the fcg, I haven't been real impressed with what I've found on the net from Tapco, who else is out there at a decent price? I mean, I don't mind paying a little extra for the trigger group since, in my opinion, it's the most important functioning system on the weapon.

 

I'm just so glad I don't have to open up the ports any at all!

 

Have you used the G2 before? It's a very crisp single stage trigger, easily one of their best products. Tromix sells an already modified version for S12. Their reputation definitely skips this product, it is very nice and I'd say 4/5 the conversions out there have the G2 in there.

 

If you use one of the different brands you will likely have to modify it yourself or have it modified, as the S12 uses a hammer with a different shape than a standard AK trigger group.

 

Ah, I guess I missed that, and that explains why the regular G2 doesn't work so well in a Saiga. Damn, I can't believe I missed that, I'm usually really good with the details...

[alistar 13]

I love a clean gun, but hate to do the work. The development of the bore snake has been a tremendous help to a neglectful shooter like me. I have to admit I just can't work up the motivation to clean after every trip to the range, as my dad used to teach.

 

So partly intentional and partly through laziness, I offer you one estimate of how long the Saiga will work without cleaning the the gas tube, which is where the problems will likely be and the worst area to clean, in general. I don't have any other shotguns, but expect that the Saiga is among the easiest to clean because of the simple mechanism.

 

After about 2100 rounds of # 8 and #9 birdshot at the skeet range, I finally had failures to eject, as the carbon had built up so much in the groove of the gas puck that it was inhibiting movement of the bolt enough to create the failures to eject. Even at this advanced state of neglect, it would still shoot OO buck without a problem, but it was clearly time to finally clean the gun.

 

I only removed the gas plug and cleaned off the threads once during this run. There were a few other issues as detailed below:

 

So, for you better disciplined shooters, if you clean every 500-1000 rounds or so of birdshot, you should be fine. You could probably go even longer with buckshot, but that's a lot of shooting. With 8 and 10 round magazines, going through 150 to 175 rounds an hour is easy at the skeet or trap range.

 

The only issues I have had with the Tromix modified gun that I bought in 2008 is

1. the grip will loosen a bit and needs to be tightened

2. the pin in the folding stock will work down with vibration and needs to be pounded back into alighnment periodically

3. the end of the folding stock was apparently just glued on, and fell off during shooting! Some super glue and rubber bands and I was right back in business, but a surprise when this hit the ground, for sure.

4. About 200-300 rounds back, started to notice that it was hard to release the magazines. During inspection after shooting, I discovered that the pin that held the release had worked out a bit, canting the release. If this ever happens to you, the easiest way to get everything aligned is to put in a magazine, and then it is much easier to tap this pin back in place. I immediately went to check the mag release on the ak, but on my model it looks as if it can't work out the same was as on the shotgun.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Wow, 2100 shells, damn, just... damn!

 

I'm cool with cleaning the S12, the only part I hate is cleaning the gunk out of the gas port holes from the barrel to the gas tube, and the lip inside the gas tube that stops the puck. It seems that I can never get these parts clean enough. Sure, they're clean enough to work but I WAS in the military...

[scoutjoe 276]

My 2002 EAA gun had about 5k through it before I broke down and cleaned the gas system (I got bored of waiting for her to jam). I would clean out the bore and the bolt face every trip. About 95% of the ammo was 7 1/2 or 8 shot Remington Sport loads.

[alistar 13]

My 2002 EAA gun had about 5k through it before I broke down and cleaned the gas system (I got bored of waiting for her to jam). I would clean out the bore and the bolt face every trip. About 95% of the ammo was 7 1/2 or 8 shot Remington Sport loads.

 

5000? Yes! That's my kind of shotgun.

[scoutjoe 276]

My 2002 EAA gun had about 5k through it before I broke down and cleaned the gas system (I got bored of waiting for her to jam). I would clean out the bore and the bolt face every trip. About 95% of the ammo was 7 1/2 or 8 shot Remington Sport loads.

 

5000? Yes! That's my kind of shotgun.

 

IIRC Bvamp had somewhere in the 10k range....and he was much tougher on his