For the love of FTE

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

Ok, so lemme try and sum this up. My saiga is a peice of $h!+. Got it, modded the crap out of it, forend, pistol grip, colapsable stock, optics, lights and lasers. its my zombie weapon, dont judge me. i cant get this beast to cycle to save my life. ive tried polishing the bolt a little, it doesnt have any burs to catch on. when you manually cycle it, it feels perfect. ive got a twisterpuck, the gunfixers improved gas doohickey, and i keep this thing clean as hell. all my ports are visible, theres 4 of em. ive tried heavy loads, it wont even eject 1oz 2 3/4 slugs. for the love of all that is holy. thats alot of god damn gas pressure. im thinking its a more mechanical issue. the piston that screws into the bolt carrier main body, it unscrews. is that spost to happpen? i really do love the crap outta this gun, it just cant cycle. how am i spost to slay legions of the undead prying a bullet out of the chamber after every kill? this is serious. someone gimmie an idea of what to try next.

[Snoofer 138]

just a shot in the dark here, but have you tried firing it with the stock puck? i tried out a twister puck for the 1st time last week and i had fte's for the 1st time since i got it back from cgw.

 

and the piston should not unscrew like that.

[BobAsh 582]

Did it run before you modified it?

 

I would start by putting the stock puck and plug back in.

 

The op rod should not unscrew from the carrier; normally it's swaged in, though some movement is normal.

[BobAsh 582]

Oh and use the factory mag too. If it runs OK with all the factory stuff, try with the aftermarket mag. Etc.

 

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

stock puck was same. i knew that thing shouldnt have unscrewed, there were two depressions on the carrier that kinda hinted at that. any idea how i should go about relocking it? could just screw it in to where-ish it was and hit it with the MIG welder maybe. its not a feeding problem at all, its an ejection problem only. it just doesnt throw the round fast enough. ive seen that happen on really old m-16s when the ejector spring cracks or just doesnt have any power left in it. i though that may be the issue, however, its a mechanical ejection at the last half inch or so of the stroke. little nub pushes on the round, hoping inertia will take care of the rest. id really appreicate info on how to rig that piston rod back up though. seems like a rather important measurement in the operation of the whole thing.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Kloned

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

gogo gadget fail!

[Snoofer 138]

contact cgw, they do the warranty work. they got my gun running flawlessly.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=34883

[BobAsh 582]

stock puck was same. i knew that thing shouldnt have unscrewed, there were two depressions on the carrier that kinda hinted at that. any idea how i should go about relocking it? could just screw it in to where-ish it was and hit it with the MIG welder maybe. its not a feeding problem at all, its an ejection problem only. it just doesnt throw the round fast enough. ive seen that happen on really old m-16s when the ejector spring cracks or just doesnt have any power left in it. i though that may be the issue, however, its a mechanical ejection at the last half inch or so of the stroke. little nub pushes on the round, hoping inertia will take care of the rest. id really appreicate info on how to rig that piston rod back up though. seems like a rather important measurement in the operation of the whole thing.

 

 

So it never ran correctly, but you still modified it?

 

Mags can cause all kinds of problems, not limited to FTF.

 

But you're right, the biggest issue here is the op rod. Personally, I'd have it warranteed.

[geepelton 105]

How many High Brass rounds have you put threw the gun? Is it broken in yet. Is the gun new. I'm just trying to get some background on the gun. Lock tight the piston rod into place, that should be good. The warranty is done with federal 1 1/8oz. birdshot bulk (you can get it at walmart). Try that and see what happens..

[corbin 621]

I've never seen a piston unscrew all the way like that without the carrier's divits being drilled out. Mine is a little loose, but cannot turn at all. I THINK that's how they're supposed to be.

 

I suppose it wouldn't be a bad time to replace the piston with a U.S. made one, for more 922 parts, seeing as how it's already out.

 

 

Definitely take the advice offered by those here and go back to the basics first to see if it will work (stock plug and stock mag). The pistol grip stock and different forend shouldn't make any difference in its cycling though.

 

Did you take a dental pick or something similar and verify that the 4 ports go all the way through into the barrel? Easy to overlook, but it might be as simple as that.

 

 

Corbin

[SaigaNoobie 66]

First question, did you do anything to the INTERNALS of the shotgun? (Recoil buffer, etc)

 

Are you limp-shouldering the thing?

 

ARE you trying to Bump-Fire? LOL.

 

OH and by the way, my gun will cycle 1 1/8oz 2 3/4" Federal Value pack but will NOT cycle Reduced-recoil 2 3/4" slugs. So if you're running reduced recoil then stop, and get some REAL high-brass.... or try some 3" and man up.

 

Don't read the Spoiler if "you can't handle the truth"

 

 

 

You added a quad rail. You added a barrel shroud attachment, and you changed the Stock to some horrible plastic excuse for a conversion. You didn't mod shit. You swapped parts and added junk.

 

 

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Contact CGW. Nuff said. You want a reliable weapon, then you need to call them so they can get you up and running. Once you start modifying things yourself, you void the warrant. So far it appears you have only added bolt on parts and have not "modified" the gun to void your warranty. I would put on the stock parts , call cgw, they will ship you a prepaid label, you put the gun back in the box and take it to UPS. You'll have your gun cycling federal bulk pack once it returns and you'll be out zero cash.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

No matter how much gas pressure you have, you need to have all the parts in the gun correctly or it won't work. This looks to me like just another case of the slack QC at Izhmash.

 

The op rod is supposed to be screwed in ALL THE WAY, then the machine uses high pressure to press those two dimples in the carrier, pinching and smashing the sides of it into the op rod threads. This is what holds the rod in place. There's no way in hell it just comes unscrewed like that if it was ever pressed in the right place correctly to begin with. Looking at your photos it's easy to see you still have threads showing after you screw the op rod into place. That's because it's not going in far enough to bottom out where it should for the pressed dimples to hold it there. Maybe somebody had a little too much vodka at break time and failed to get it screwed in completely before pressing the part. I also don't see any mashed threads, and there would be if it had been pressed correctly.

 

If the op rod is holding the piston too far back (forward) in the gas block, the gas pressure is not being applied like it should be to the piston or puck. What you have there is the equivalent of what would happen in a normal S-12 if you unscrewed the plug and put a nickel or two in there with the puck, then put the plug back in and tried to fire it.

 

I wouldn't waste the time shipping it off for warranty work if you have access to a drill. You can simply drill the dimples out first, then screw the op rod all the way in, and locktite / pin it in place. The gun should work great then with four ports that are all showing.

 

If I were you I would at least check the measurement from the end of the rod to the open end of the bolt carrier, to verify if this is the case. I will measure a few of mine and let you know what it should be in a minute....

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

shipping the gun back isnt a great idea, whoever owned it before me had the same problem i take it, one of the gas ports is drilled at an angle with a size 40 drill bit, or something really close to that. anyway, it looks as if they didnt even take the gas block off to upsize the ports. they just decided they were cool enough to drill at an angle into the barrel. im fairly sure that ruins the warranty. they only managed to get one though. the rest look pretty standard. ive got lll sorts of wonderful tools, and im not new at machining stuff. its my job. usually i do sheetmetal/fiberglass work on aircraft, but i modify and make special tools all the time. /sarcasm-thank god i got laid off last week. now all my tools are in my garage so i can fix my shotgun! /end sarcasm. im gonna run a tap though the bolt carrier and get those dimples out that way, then i can screw that beast in all the way and lock it in there. thanks everyone, ill let ya know how it goes

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Ok now almost an hour and a half later... ...after going through a pile of S-12s and two full blown computer lockups while trying to reply....something interesting.

I measured the exposed op rods of (4) 4 port S-12 bolt carriers, and (4) 3 ported gun's carriers. Here's what I came up with:

4 port:

1. 3.487''

2. 3.503"

3. 3.505"

4. 3.512"

 

3 port: (much different than the older guns)

1. 3.358"

2. 3.369"

3. 3.375"

4. 3.375"

 

Not surprising....nothing consistent about any of the parts really, between older and newer guns. Didn't expect that after they changed so much at the factory, I just think they need to work harder at QC on the new guns, knowing full well they have been making lots of mistakes lately.

 

Anyway the older bolt carriers are a shorter OAL (over all length) than the newer ones, the front end where the threads are can be different lengths too, totally different dimples (in placement and depth / diameter), different amounts of threads showing on op rods (some, almost no threads showing, like the pic I looked at in my files before commenting above, others with several threads showing), so I'm not sure there is a way to measure the "correct" amount of exposed op rod you should have. It would actually be better to assemble the bolt and carrier, close the bolt, put the puck in, and measure the distance between it and the ports.

 

Hopefully though, this has been helpful and you can at least compare your four port carrier's op rod measurement to the ones I posted and see if it's way off. Screw it in as far as it will go til it hits the inside edges of the dimples and bottoms out (assuming they even pressed them deep enough where they are hitting the threads). Then assemble everything and see how much room you have between the ports and the visible side of the puck. If you can't see the ports with the puck in there and touching the op rod, then I was right above.

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Oh well...too late I guess...

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

thanks man, i really appreciate it. havnt done anything to it yet. gonna put it back where it was, roughly, measure and compare to your measurements, make sure its roughly the same... then see how it goes. need an average of 3.50175. so, thats what im gonna shoot for.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Be sure to put it back together first and observe the visible side of the puck from the open end of the gas block. See if the ports are visible and if so, how much room there is.

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

3.410 is what mine was at before. im gonna put it at your average though. 10th of an inch may not seem like a lot, but i think it might actually make a difference

 

good point, doing that right now with the new measurements

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Damn man it sounds like what you are saying is the previous owner drilled that big port, angled the wrong way, from the open end back. It's angled backwards. That's not good. Even if you get correct pressure you will have all kinds of crap getting in there clogging shit up. I know how Tom must feel from all the "home repaired" guns he has to deal with these days....

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

yeah, wasnt happy when i found it. trust me. i adjusted the rod to where the gas port hole is completely visable. im gonna put a weld on it to keep it there. the threads are way to loose to trust locktite, so, time to weld.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I know it's a long shot, but since the last guy did some 1/2 assed stuff to it... By any chance, is the hammer stock?

I know very few people would change the hammer on an un-converted gun, but stranger things have happened when people were looking out for 922r.

If the hammer's not the factory hammer & it's incorrectly profiled, this could be an issue.

 

Good luck.

 

ETA: & let your gas system get a little dirty. The crap in the puck's grooves acts like a piston's rings creating a seal. This helps malfunctioning guns sometimes.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Paulyski

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

fixed. thank you cobra 76 two. those measurements fixed it. just blew through 100ish rounds without a single FTE. HOWEVER... the carbon buildup was atrocious. havnt really fired it that much ever before. it actually made a carbon wafer on the puck. when i popped it off, i could actually read the letters stamped into the plug itself.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Kloned

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

heh, you can see the gas plugs porting holes there...

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

LOL....Somebody's been bakin brownies......

 

R&R of the gas block is nothing for someone with your background and ability.

Since you can weld, I would suggest taking off the gas block and welding that port partially closed, to try and change the direction of the gas flow backwards like it's supposed to be. If you can weld some at the front half of the hole, then go back and drill it from the opposite direction, angling it back instead. Or just weld it totally closed and redrill it, or enlarge the other three if the weld would then be too hard to drill.

Then you won't be packing the gas block with as much crap as you are now. The rear hole being angle like that is just shaving that shit off and directing it straight into the plug. Just gotta be careful not to let your weld creep into the bore and create blockage. Also don't over gas the gun by increasing the total port area more then it already is.

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

First, I would try to get my money back from the seller and let him deal with it. You will probably never be happy with that weapon, but you could always make some of your money back by parting it out.

 

Wait, wait, wait. There is still enough barrel there to do a SBS. You have an excellent excuse to do it.... as long as you live in a free state.

 

 

Otherwise, it is fubar'd....

 

or .... as Cobra said, you can get to welding and reporting.

Edited June 12, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hey I would look at it as more of an excuse to use your tools. I just enjoy working on stuff like that. To me building it is at least as much fun as shooting it.

 

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

Hey I would look at it as more of an excuse to use your tools. I just enjoy working on stuff like that. To me building it is at least as much fun as shooting it.

 

 

 

damn right, ive already got this beast stripped down. thats exactly what i was considering doing. stopping the weld from creeping in the bore is gonna be a pain, but tottaly doable. this time im gonna wear shoes while i weld. stupid slag... stupid gravity...

[JoshuaHoldiman 0]

i broke my damn 3/32 punch trying to get the gas block off... didnt even budge the pin either. are these rivets? /rage. oh well, calling matco guy to come give me a new punch, mwahaha

[cfish 2]

The old tig two step. LOL