ACR and other potential AR replacements

[s2thalayer 13]

Well in my new study to find my next perfect rifle, i was sticking to my rules. I dont purchase two of the same type of caliber until i get a good, well rounded set of calibers. so i was looking at an A)M1A and a B)Remington 750. Well, i chose C) Saiga .308. But this morning i noticed the ACR's price dropped dramatically to $1999. Has anyone in these forums actually owned one? or a XM8, or SCAR,or other that could rival an AK or AR? And is the ACR worth 2 grand if i already own an AR and AK? Opinions!

[VaiFanatic90 360]

I've asked the same thing, I got mixed answers. Here is the link to the thread so you can read for yourself. Good luck!

[nalioth 405]

Well, i chose C) Saiga .308. But this morning i noticed the ACR's price dropped dramatically to $1999.

If $1999 is a "dramatic" price drop, I'm gonna wait until the price drops to > $1000 and causes a massive wave of coronaries across America before I even consider it.

 

For Pete's sake, it's supposed to be cheaper to produce than an AR. . .

[DogMan 2,343]

How about something that never was price gouged to start with. This is one that I do have personal experience with. It's a great rifle. It's not the "perfect rifle" any more than any other one. In my opinion its a big step above the AR. I can't speak to the SCAR, ACR, or any of the other new ones. The XCR leaves me not really caring about those other because this meets all my needs for now. I think its well worth looking into.

 

 

XCR

[mgconnor13 206]

I know the Rangers tried out the SCAR but they are going to make the switch. From what I understand they aren't significantly better then then the M4 to be worth the cost of changing over. The ACR is cool but I haven't been overwhelmed by the few i've handled.

[Casp 119]

The following is only an opinion. There are many like it but this one is mine:

 

I haven't gotten to shoot the ACR as of yet, I have only handled and stripped them in-store on several occasions. I have however devoted more time than I really should have into researching its design and all the different features (there's next to no documentation on how the charging handle actually works), and have spent plenty of time discussing it with Tokageko since it came out.

 

I don't like the charging handle. The deal with it is that it's non-reciprocating when you're firing, but it locks itself to the bolt carrier when you pull it back manually. This is so you can jam forward on it like a forward assist or fixed charging handle. The problem is that you can't push it all the way forward with the carrier. For about the last 1/4" of forward travel, the charging handle lets go of the carrier and no longer acts as a forward assist. Part of the point to having a forward assist function is to make sure the carrier is all the way into battery and you can't do that with the ACR's charging handle, nor is there any surface on the bolt carrier you can press on through the ejection port. We all know that 99% of the time it's not something you actually need, but it's a very nice thing to have. Lacking FA isn't a deal breaker for me but, given the option, I'd rather have it than not have it.

 

I'm also not crazy about getting rid of the ejection port dust cover. People will generally say "well you don't need it on anything other than the AR" but fact of the matter is, it's a good design feature. Getting dirt and mud in your weapon is never desirable regardless of what weapon system you run, and keep in mind the AK has a dust cover too; the flap of the safety lever that covers up the charging handle slot when on safe.

 

The ambi bolt catch/release is probably my favorite thing about the rifle, that's pretty much win. I also like how easy it is to remove the barrel. Having a stock that is both telescopic and side-folding is good (I consider lack of a folding stock the AR's worst feature), as many companies are starting to figure out (Para Ordnance TTR, FN SCAR, SIG SG556 Classic). These are the only features I consider to be significant improvements over the standard AR-15A2/A4 (most of you probably know my opinion on the Stoner direct gas system by now), and it's not enough to justify replacing my AR, regardless of price. Same goes for the FN SCAR, and the RobArm XCR. Of those three rifles, if I had to choose one, I'd probably choose the SCAR; the XCR would be my last choice.

 

But hey, if you already own an AR and an AK and have money to burn, ain't nothin' wrong with expanding your horizons a little. Keep in mind you could always rebarrel an ACR (or SCAR) for 6.8mm SPC or possibly 6.5mm Grendel or something, later on down the road when the accessories become available as I have no doubt they will.

[nalioth 405]

The "forward assist" is a sop to the military's "doing it their own way" instead of the way the weapon was designed. When the AR was run with the powder designed for it, it supposedly ran fine, and no forward assist was needed. It was only after the military changed the powder that the problems started, which led the military to tack on the "Forward assist" instead of fixing the root problem.

 

Please list any other battle rifle besides the M16 (that isn't designed after the M16) that has a forward assist.

 

Yes, I know you can "forward assist" the Kalashnikov pattern rifles, but they don't have a "forward assist" built in to them.

[s2thalayer 13]

The following is only an opinion. There are many like it but this one is mine:

 

I haven't gotten to shoot the ACR as of yet, I have only handled and stripped them in-store on several occasions. I have however devoted more time than I really should have into researching its design and all the different features (there's next to no documentation on how the charging handle actually works), and have spent plenty of time discussing it with Tokageko since it came out.

 

I don't like the charging handle. The deal with it is that it's non-reciprocating when you're firing, but it locks itself to the bolt carrier when you pull it back manually. This is so you can jam forward on it like a forward assist or fixed charging handle. The problem is that you can't push it all the way forward with the carrier. For about the last 1/4" of forward travel, the charging handle lets go of the carrier and no longer acts as a forward assist. Part of the point to having a forward assist function is to make sure the carrier is all the way into battery and you can't do that with the ACR's charging handle, nor is there any surface on the bolt carrier you can press on through the ejection port. We all know that 99% of the time it's not something you actually need, but it's a very nice thing to have. Lacking FA isn't a deal breaker for me but, given the option, I'd rather have it than not have it.

 

I'm also not crazy about getting rid of the ejection port dust cover. People will generally say "well you don't need it on anything other than the AR" but fact of the matter is, it's a good design feature. Getting dirt and mud in your weapon is never desirable regardless of what weapon system you run, and keep in mind the AK has a dust cover too; the flap of the safety lever that covers up the charging handle slot when on safe.

 

The ambi bolt catch/release is probably my favorite thing about the rifle, that's pretty much win. I also like how easy it is to remove the barrel. Having a stock that is both telescopic and side-folding is good (I consider lack of a folding stock the AR's worst feature), as many companies are starting to figure out (Para Ordnance TTR, FN SCAR, SIG SG556 Classic). These are the only features I consider to be significant improvements over the standard AR-15A2/A4 (most of you probably know my opinion on the Stoner direct gas system by now), and it's not enough to justify replacing my AR, regardless of price. Same goes for the FN SCAR, and the RobArm XCR. Of those three rifles, if I had to choose one, I'd probably choose the SCAR; the XCR would be my last choice.

 

But hey, if you already own an AR and an AK and have money to burn, ain't nothin' wrong with expanding your horizons a little. Keep in mind you could always rebarrel an ACR (or SCAR) for 6.8mm SPC or possibly 6.5mm Grendel or something, later on down the road when the accessories become available as I have no doubt they will.

 

Nice review! Thanks for the information. That pretty much settles it. Saiga .308. Im just going to mod that, put the telescoping and folding stock on it and just customize it the way i want it instead of relying on some company to do it.

[Casp 119]

Please list any other battle rifle besides the M16 (that isn't designed after the M16) that has a forward assist.

 

Israeli FAL, Steyr StG.77A1 AUG, MSAR STG-556, Robinson Armament XCR, and the H&K G41, along with the PSG1 sniper rifle. Most other H&K roller delayed rifles have a thumbprint-shaped serration on the side of the bolt carrier you can push on through the ejection port.

 

Forward assist doesn't have a single thing to do with reliability of the weapon; it has to do with making sure the bolt is fully seated into battery. On any rifle with a reciprocating charging handle, AK included, you can simply jam forward on said charging handle. On any rifle with a non-reciprocating charging handle, you can only pull the bolt rearward, not push it forward, at least not with the charging handle. Thus, you have some kind of forward assist function. On the Izzy FAL, AUG A1, and XCR you can press inward on the charging handle knob (or a button on the charging handle in the case of the AUG) to lock the charging handle to the bolt carrier, and use that to push forward.

 

The reason the Colt Model 603/M16A1 included a forward assist had nothing to do with the reliability history; it was introduced into the system in late 1967 when almost all of the reliability problems had already been sorted out; powder corrected, bore chrome lined, heavier recoil buffer, reinforced lower receiver, etc. The forward assist was introduced because, basically, the Army said this:

 

"There are certain times in the use of a rifle when you want to make damn sure the bolt is all the way closed; your charging handle doesn't let us do that. Give us a way to push forward directly on the bolt, by hand, or we're not going to officially adopt it."

 

My opinion is, in principle, the same. Better to have and not need than to need and not have, as the saying goes.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[Casp 119]

Im just going to mod that, put the telescoping and folding stock on it and just customize it the way i want it instead of relying on some company to do it.

 

Nothing makes me happier than the DIY spirit. Good on ya, mate.

[nalioth 405]

Your list would be a lot shorter if you'd followed instructions.

 

The M16 came along and all the other weapons designers jumped into the "Let's add a feature to crumple cartridges into battery, because - you know - the fact that the round won't chamber normally doesn't mean anything to us."

 

Dedicated forward assists are unnecessary, IMHO.

[mgconnor13 206]

I'd rather have a forward assist on a rifle with a non reciprocating charging handle. Forward assists are nice to have, they're not a must have but I rather have and not need then need it and not have it.

 

If you're crumpling shells into the chamber with your forward assist you're abusing it. It's there to make sure the bolt is locked. I'd always tap the forward assist on my M4 before leaving the wire as a double check.

 

Think about it this way. A recoil spring has the least amount of force it it when the bolt is just about locked since the spring is almost completely extended. The forward assist is there so you can make sure the bolt carrier makes it that last couple millimeters so the bolt is fully locked.

[nalioth 405]

The forward assist is there so you can make sure the bolt carrier makes it that last couple millimeters so the bolt is fully locked.

The forward assist is there so that the bigwigs can have their guns run the way they think they should be run - no matter how they were designed.

 

Again, I think it's a needless addition.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

"Worth" is a subjective thing. It may be worth it to one person, and not worth it to another.

 

As far as anyone here owning an ACR..........I know WarriorJudge has one, but last I heard, he hasn't shot it yet.

[Gnosticguardian 4]

The original M16 setup had a forward assist on the bolt carrier (that thumb shaped dish you see under the dust cover) you should never need to beat your bolt into battery. So I'm just gonna throw this out there. How about you just gunsmith "dremel " a thumb-style forward assist into the ACR? I mean it's all about making the weapon work for you right?

[Casp 119]

Well, yes, that divot is really just there so that the dust cover can close, but it can be used as a FA. Only problem with that is after several hundred rounds the AR's bolt carrier is a bit hot for that. As for the ACR, I was thinking something more along the lines of TIG welding a piece of aluminum tubing into the left side of the receiver for an AR style FA plunger.

[Gnosticguardian 4]

UGH! no welds... and by the way, Gene Stoner's original idea was for that divot to be the forward assist before the dust cover was designed. plus I don't know when you'll put enough rounds to make the bolt carrier hot. usually only the barrel and the breach get hot, not the bolt carrier, too much airspace, metal, and motion to get it that hot. by that time you probably have a red-hot barrel. Then again I'm open to being proven wrong, I'm not the complete and all-knowing on weapons, specifically the AR. I was an AR guy back in the day and love my A-2 but aside from an ACR or Scar (whichever melds the perks of both AK and AR the best) I won't own another AR because they bastardize it too much making a carbine and for the US military making it an intermediate round. The AR in my opinion would've best been kept in a .30 caliber or higher and used as a long range weapon because it has the tolerances for it. as for a mid to CQB weapon the AR-Carbine is definitely not cutting edge or preferable in most circumstances if any.

 

Just an after-thought though, I kinda got off subject, but to go with what I've said so far it's not like any platform could be a great platform being that most are make to mil-spec because people think that makes it good. in reality the military uses low-grade ammo and as per Geneva Convention can't use functional rounds to do what we need them to do. In my experience you could use a tactical slingshot better than most weapons simply because the Geneva Convention doesn't tell you what ammo to use.

Edited October 9, 2010 by Gnosticguardian

[Casp 119]

Right in that divot is where the gas escape ports are for the cylinder. It doesn't get hot enough to damage the carrier or bolt, and I never said it did; you'd lose your barrel long before that. I would not however want to stick my bare fingers there after a few hundred rounds.

 

 

As for the bolt carrier divot having always been there since before the dust cover, I can't prove you wrong, but I can say that I have never seen an AR-10 without one, going all the way back to the prototypes. Here's some old ArmaLite promotional material; notice that this is a prototype model that predates and is quite noticeably different from the mass-produced model used by Sudan and Portugal. (The gas key is a solid part of the upper receiver, located on the left side, rather than being a moving piece attached to the top of the bolt carrier. Since there's no gas key up top, there is no channel space above the carrier, and so it doesn't have the characteristic hump of the mass produced model where you'd find the charging handle on the AR-15.) Notice that it does have the dust cover. Also, the dude running up the beach at the beginning is kind of amusing...

 

 

Proving that the gun in the video is a pre-production prototype: here is the prototype model shown in the video; notice no hump behind the carry handle, and you can clearly see the gas tube sticking out the back of the handguard on the left side. This is a photo from Milspec Monkey's tour of C. Reed Knight's personal museum, by the way.

 

 

Compare that to this, a Portuguese issue AR-10. See what I'm talking about?

 

Edited October 9, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[Gnosticguardian 4]

well see, I'm a bit smarter now. I do believe that they added the divot for the 5.56 model because the system would tend to get alot more carbon build up. the AR-10 has a more violent action that knocks the excess crap loose. mute point though, there is one more way to get rid of the need for a forward assist on an ACR or Scar. The ACR in 7.62x39 or the Scar-H in .308 lol. my wallet isn't big enough for that though and I'm sure I'm not alone.

 

 

thanks for the info and videos by the way, they're quite helpful, and the guy on the AR-10 vid at the beginning just makes me think of the "awesome firepower" video

Edited October 9, 2010 by Gnosticguardian

[MT Predator 2,294]

The FA allows you to ride the bolt forward quietly and ensure the round is fully chambered as the non-reciprocating charging handle doesn't allow this. Sometimes you don't want to let the bolt fly into battery. Such as in the middle of the night in a jungle in SE Asia.