Is a rifled slug gun a rifle or shot gun?

[datubie 21]

Is a rifled slug gun considered a 'rifle' or 'shotgun' in the eyes of the ATF?

 

I live in a awb state and was wondering if I somehow got a rifled barrel for my 12S, I could build it up as a 'rifle' instead of 'shotgun'. This would allow me to use larger cap mags and add a pistol grip instead of being restricted to 6rds and the standard hunting style grip/stock.

 

"Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the

explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single

pull of the trigger."

 

 

 

"Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the

explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a

single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder

which does not fire fixed ammunition"

 

[Rockina 60]

A rifled slug gun should still be considered a shotgun, the barrel can be either a smooth bore or rifled, it is designed to shoot shotgun shells and subject to different restrictions than a rifle.

 

I am sure it would be possible with enough engineering to get a shotgun to shoot a cartridge (410-45LC..I have a derringer that shoots either), I don't believe it can be done to make it a practical application for anything other than a single shot weapon. Don't know of a rifle cartridge that would come close to fitting a 12 gauge shotgun.

[datubie 21]

A rifled slug gun should still be considered a shotgun, the barrel can be either a smooth bore or rifled, it is designed to shoot shotgun shells and subject to different restrictions than a rifle.

 

I am sure it would be possible with enough engineering to get a shotgun to shoot a cartridge (410-45LC..I have a derringer that shoots either), I don't believe it can be done to make it a practical application for anything other than a single shot weapon. Don't know of a rifle cartridge that would come close to fitting a 12 gauge shotgun.

 

 

The .410 Saiga 'could' in theory fire the 45LC. LIke your derringer or the Taurus Judge.

[Alexc.s. 25]

If it fires from a shotgun shell, even if its a solid single projectile though a rifled bore, the gun is still a shotgun.

Asked a gun store owner once, thats what he told me.

[corbin 621]

The .410 Saiga 'could' in theory fire the 45LC. LIke your derringer or the Taurus Judge.

 

 

WARNING!

 

DO NOT DO THIS WITH A STANDARD 410 BARREL!!!

 

A 410 slug is 0.410", which is what the bore is. A 45LC is 0.45 or so. Puting this through a smaller bore will BLOW UP YOUR GUN.

 

Now, if you converted the barrel to shoot 45 Colt, you might fit a 410 shell in there, but I don't know about cycling.

Edited October 4, 2010 by Corbin

[roombroom12ga 4]

the modern .45 colt/.410 derringers have a small bit of rifling at the muzzle to maintain status as handguns

[Casp 119]

Warning: I am not a lawyer, so if you decide to take my word as sound legal advice and wind up in court, tough luck. Also, this shit is confusing, so take notes.

 

It has to do not only with the presence of rifling but also with bore size and barrel length.

 

For future reference, Title I means you can buy it over-the-counter at your local gun shop, and Title II means it's an NFA weapon subject to months of waiting and the dreaded $200 black stamp.

 

Anything larger than .50 caliber qualifies as a Title II "Destructive Device," unless the BATFE decides that a particular weapon has a legitimate "sporting purpose." This is why certain conventional 12 gauge shotguns (Armsel Striker-12, Cobray Street Sweeper, Daewoo USAS-12) are considered Destructive Devices; all other shotguns are generally considered to be sporting-exempt, whether or not they have a rifled barrel. Some big-bore hunting rifles are also considered sporting exempt, such as the .577 Nitro Express.

 

A Title I rifled long gun, as defined by having a rifled bore, must have a barrel longer than 16", while a Title I shotgun as defined by having a smooth bore must have a barrel over 18" long. Both are required to be over 26" over-all. If the weapon has a folding stock, the over-all length is measured with the stock fully extended, as precedented by the Uzi semiautomatic carbine which is only 24" with the metal type E buttstock installed and folded. If the weapon has a detachable buttstock, such as some Thompson semiautomatic carbines, it must still be over 26" over-all with the buttstock removed.

 

If a rifled bore weapon is shorter than the above listed dimensions (16" barrel), and does not and never has had a buttstock and cannot accept a detachable buttstock (with a few certain exceptions), it is considered a Title I handgun. If it does have a buttstock, it is considered a Title II Short Barreled Rifle.

 

If a smooth bore weapon is shorter than the above listed dimensions (18" barrel), and does not and never has had a buttstock and cannot accept a detachable buttstock, it is considered a Title II "Any Other Weapon" (god is that a bullshit designation.) If it does have a buttstock, it is considered a Title II Short Barreled Shotgun.

 

A .410 shotgun is subject to all the rules and limitations of a Title I rifle or handgun if the barrel is rifled. This is how Taurus gets away with the Judge revolver; it takes a shotgun shell, but it's smaller than .50 cal and has a rifled bore, so it's a Title I handgun. The new Circuit Judge revolving carbine that is coming out is advertised as being available with either smooth or rifled bore barrels; if it's smooth, it has to be over 18". If it's rifled, it has to be over 16", but it can be under 18".

 

THE ABOVE PARAGRAPH DOES NOT APPLY TO SHOTGUNS LARGER THAN .50 CAL. The problem is precisely that almost all shotguns (other than the .410) are larger than .50 caliber. Shotguns in general, smooth or rifled bore, are considered Title I shotguns with a sporting exemption for their bore size. There are no smooth-bore Title I hand guns; as I already mentioned, a smooth-bore handgun is a Title II "Any Other Weapon".

 

The common layman's theory here is that a shotgun with a rifled barrel shorter than 18" but longer than 16" would constitute a Title I rifle, or that a shotgun shorter than 16" with a rifled barrel would be a Title I handgun, both with bore-size sporting clause exemptions. The ATF disagrees, however: as soon as you go under the 18" barrel length (or 26" over-all length) the ATF says that it no longer has a sporting exemption for its bore size, and that if you don't register it as a Short Barreled Shotgun or Any Other Weapon, you must register it as a Destructive Device. Does it make sense? No. Is it right? No. Is it the law? For now and the foreseeable future, yes.

 

The answer to your original question: If you live in an AWB state, you're probably pretty much SOL on Title II weapons. A rifled 12 gauge or 20 gauge shotgun would still be considered a shotgun. A rifled bore Saiga-410, however, would be considered a Title I rifle.

 

Keep in mind, everything I've posted here is Federal law, not State law. An example of how that can come back to bite you is that the minimum over-all length of a rifle (possibly only semiauto rifles with detachable magazines, I can't remember) in the State of California is not 26" with the stock extended, but 30" with the stock folded or fully collapsed. Just because you're in compliance with Federal law doesn't mean you're in compliance with State law, so be careful and do some more research; possibly get legal advice from a real lawyer, or get a letter from the ATF or your state's Department of (in)Justice.

 

There are probably a few minor details I missed which other people might be able to fill in, but that's the meat and potatoes of the NFA as it relates to shotguns. It is really irksome that they actually pay people to think this crap up.

 

Edited ten million times for typos I didn't find before posting.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[Kliegl 304]

Damn good post, and addresses the question I was going to ask about the Circuit Judge.

[308SAIGA 55]

Is a rifled slug gun considered a 'rifle' or 'shotgun' in the eyes of the ATF?

 

I live in a awb state and was wondering if I somehow got a rifled barrel for my 12S, I could build it up as a 'rifle' instead of 'shotgun'. This would allow me to use larger cap mags and add a pistol grip instead of being restricted to 6rds and the standard hunting style grip/stock.

 

"Rifle" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the

explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single

pull of the trigger."

 

 

 

"Shotgun" means any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and using the energy of the

explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shots or a

single projectile for each pull of the trigger, or any firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder

which does not fire fixed ammunition"

 

 

You answered your own question here, shotguns do not use metallic cartridges with slugs.....

[datubie 21]

Caspian, damned good post. Slightly clearer than mud now!

 

 

[datubie 21]

 

You answered your own question here, shotguns do not use metallic cartridges with slugs.....

 

If you buy commercial. I'm sure there are those who reload who might be crazy enough to try.

[Casp 119]

You answered your own question here, shotguns do not use metallic cartridges with slugs.....

 

I think that's a matter of semantics that not even the ATF is particularly concerned with. Most shotshells still have a metallic base and before they were plastic all shotshells were paper, and before that they were all full-brass. The progression of different materials has more to do with reducing the cost of manufacture than anything else, and it has also been done (albeit rather poorly) with centerfire rifle and pistol cartridges. Point being, it's too difficult to try to make a distinction between what constitutes a shotshell and what constitutes a rifle/pistol cartridge (not that I put it past the ATF to try, but to my knowledge they haven't yet.) For instance, if you tried to define a shotshell as any fixed ammunition with the projectile telescoped inside the case, then the .32 Nagant revolver round would be legally a shotshell. Ammo is ammo. If it were really a concern, then the ATF would have something much, much different to say about the Judge.

 

Edit: in fact I have one of these plastic-hull .223 fired cases (gray hull) sitting in front of me right now.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

turbotezza - guessing by your 6 round limit, you live in NJ?

 

My advice: DO NOT TRY THIS IN NJ

 

Sorry bud. Messing with an S-12 there is bad juju. Really, really bad juju.

 

I should also add that there are not any production rifled barrels for the S-12 even if this were possible in a legal sense to have a 12 gauge rifle (it's not, as CSM said), and the only rifled barrel S-12 I ever saw was one from Tromix totally custom ($$$) and the gunsmith there said that it was such a pain in the ass to do he'd probably never do it again.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[Casp 119]

On a related note, I want a rifled-bore Saiga-12 or -20 because WA state doesn't allow SBS's but does allow DDs. Sounds like something I'm going to have to deal with on my own though.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

On a related note, I want a rifled-bore Saiga-12 or -20 because WA state doesn't allow SBS's but does allow DDs. Sounds like something I'm going to have to deal with on my own though.

 

Heh, in NJ, potato guns are DDs

 

And the sad part is, I'm not joking!

[datubie 21]

Haha, so true.

 

We can only hope something will change in 2012.

 

Heh, in NJ, potato guns are DDs

 

And the sad part is, I'm not joking!

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Haha, so true.

 

We can only hope something will change in 2012.

 

Heh, in NJ, potato guns are DDs

 

And the sad part is, I'm not joking!

 

Nah, nothing will change in NJ regardless of any legislature or political party. The Democrats in this state are solidly anti-gun (well, anti-gun for you and me, no problem with off duty cops and Donald Trump having guns) and the "Rockefeller Republicans" like Christie share their views on gun control. Couple that with the fact that supporting gun control is a "safe" position here (been 20 years since the AWB and ~70 since the P2P/FID system) and that the five largest counties are all highly urban so no one there wants to hear about guns.

 

It's thoroughly fucked and the only way things would change in NJ is through federal lawsuits to invalidate the laws like they have done in DC/Chicago. Whitman was a republican too and passed a slew of gun control during her term.

 

Here's "conservative" Chris Christie's old campaign flyer from 1995 during his run for assembly.

 

"Vote for safer streets"

 

Edited October 5, 2010 by Classy Kalashnikov

[G O B 3,516]

This is the same New Jersey that has 3 major corruption trials going simultaneously. They have to keep the people disarmed, otherwise the people would forcibly overthrow them and install an honest Government!

[Koljec 37]

A rifled bore Saiga-410, however, would be considered a Title I rifle.

 

 

Here's a scenario:

 

I live in Delaware, and I'm not allowed to have a short-barreled shotgun, but I can have a short-barreled rifle.

 

If I took a 410, chopped it as short as it could go, and permanently affixed (welded) a paradox choke, would it be considered a short-barreled rifle?

[Rockina 60]

A rifled bore Saiga-410, however, would be considered a Title I rifle.

 

 

Here's a scenario:

 

I live in Delaware, and I'm not allowed to have a short-barreled shotgun, but I can have a short-barreled rifle.

 

If I took a 410, chopped it as short as it could go, and permanently affixed (welded) a paradox choke, would it be considered a short-barreled rifle?

 

It would be a mistake to take a ANYTHING you read here as the absolute law !!

 

If that is what you want then write the ATF and your State and get your questions answered from the authorities, but to do anything that is questionable or is subject to interperation without first obtaining a clear legal opinion and/or permission would be very foolish and could prove costly in more ways than one !

[Casp 119]

It would be a mistake to take a ANYTHING you read here as the absolute law !!

 

If that is what you want then write the ATF and your State and get your questions answered from the authorities, but to do anything that is questionable or is subject to interperation without first obtaining a clear legal opinion and/or permission would be very foolish and could prove costly in more ways than one !

 

^^^This.

 

The old adage "it's easier to get forgiveness than permission" does not apply to the ATF.

 

If I took a 410, chopped it as short as it could go, and permanently affixed (welded) a paradox choke, would it be considered a short-barreled rifle?

 

I would imagine so, yes, but PLEASE mail the ATF Firearms Technology Branch and find out for sure. No one here will take responsibility if you don't and it gets you in trouble.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster