Help Verify Parts count please.

[M15A4spr 0]

I will be replacing the FCG with the TAPCO single hook. That counts as 3 parts right?

I also have a US made stock and US made Pistol grip to install.

 

Is that enough to be compliant or do I need more for the Saiga-12 Conversion?

[amish_psycho 0]

Read the "What can you do to a Saiga" at the top of the forum and it will explain it all. Please make sure you are compliant, don't assume. Ask first if any doubt. Amish Out.

[M15A4spr 0]

[G O B 3,516]

No more than 10 IMPORTED parts-from BATF list. Saiga's start with 13 parts. FCG=3 parts. So unless you add an imported pistol grip, or stock or muzzle device (flash hider or muzzle brake. A choke is a 'barell part' and not a "muzzle device"). And if you fit a US gaspiston, then you can use one more 'foregn' part.

 

G O B

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Just to make sure there is no one out there who thinks I Fd up on my conversion, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I started with an S-12 with a 19" threaded bbl and factory chokes (modified and paradox rifled).

I converted to PG and used ALL Bulgarian furniture including PG and handguards.

I swapped the factory fcg with a Tapco G2 double hook (3 parts)

Then I had a custom USA gas piston made and installed that. (1 more part)

Is everything cool?

[emclean 0]

using this part count, (cant guess what some other LEO may count it as) yes you are legal

[RDSWriter 5]

Edited May 24, 2005 by RDSWriter

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yeah that whole barrel extension, muzzle attachment thing is a gray area I guess. Since I also have a factory FH for it I guess I need to figure out something to change just to be sure. Damn I hate to change anything on it!! I thought I was OK. As bad as I hate to do it I could make an exact copy of the PG but it might be hard to match the color. Or I could get an Ironwood US stock and change that out but the same problem with the color match and Uncle Ted would be pissed.

I knew it was too sweet to be true.

[RDSWriter 5]

The easiest fix is to make one or more baseplates out of 3/8" or 1/4" black plastic 'wafer' board. You can easily pick up scraps of the good stuff (e.g. Nylox or polyamide) at salvage yards for 50cents to $1 a pound. Now you have a US baseplate - CHEAP. FYI - The stuff is as easy to work with on a router as wood.

Edited May 24, 2005 by RDSWriter

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thanks I may just have to go that route. With a limited supply of mags the floorplates probably are the easiest thing to change. Metal ones may even be easier to fabricate.

[piggsy 0]

The easiest fix is to make one or more baseplates out of 3/8" or  1/4" black plastic 'wafer' board. You can easily pick up scraps of the good stuff (e.g. Nylox or polyamide) at salvage yards for 50cents to $1 a pound. Now you have a US baseplate - CHEAP. FYI - The stuff is as easy to work with on a router as wood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Man, you're a f-n GENIUS!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Yes RDSWriter you are the man!

I will make up some floorplates and post pics!

Ahhh I hear the black helicopters fading away in the distance!

[TapperMan 0]

Barrel extensions are things that attach at the breech end of the barrel, like this:

 

 

 

on a Browning 1919 or the barrel extension (part 7 here) on an AR15 barrel:

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

M15A4spr I hope your question has been answered to your satisfaction. It's all explained well in USMC_LB's FAQ post. We all have looked at these rediculous laws and tried to make sense of them. It does NOT matter how many US parts you add onto an imported rifle or shotgun. You could easily go to Cabellas or any gun shop and find more than enough US made parts to hang off any gun. The infamous "list" from BATF has all the main parts supposedly on AK types and others. These imported firearms must be left alone in the configuration which they were imported. If you change any of the parts that are on the dreaded list you are "manufacturing a firearm" and in some cases "manufacturing an assault weapon" as they see it. When doing this you must end up with "NO MORE THAN 10 IMPORTED PARTS" from the list to remain 922r compliant (legal). So the key thing to remember is that it's not not how many US parts you add, it's how many foreign parts you replace with domestic. It's pretty rediculous that a non compliant, therefore illegally converted AK is considered a felony to posess, yet you can take out the gas piston, PG, stock, handguards, one of the three trigger parts, or even a follower or floorplate from your mags and replace them with an exact duplicate from the US and the same evil deadly firearm is perfectly legal instead of something that could land you in prison. I for one am thankful at least that we are allowed these loopholes in the senseless law. At least for now. Ok I'm done ranting sorry.

This is how I understand it:

Like GOB said, on a Saiga sporting shotgun as imported there are 13 listed parts, 14 if it has the threaded barrel with chokes. I'm not sure if they call a choke a muzzle attachment, but like RDSWriter said they do attach to the muzzle. A factory Russian flash hider or brake probably is cosidered a muzzle attachment and therefore is the 14th part.

If you convert a Saiga shotgun with a factory threaded barrel to pistol grip configuration it would be easier to use a US made PG. When you put a PG on it you are adding a part to the gun that was not originally on it. So then you have to replace another part to compensate for adding one. That means including the PG or stock you must have 5 US made parts. (only 4 with a nonthreaded barrel)

For example:

You have a stock Saiga S12 (unthreaded) and you think it is front heavy and unbalanced so you decide to put a shorter AK style fixed or folding stock on it. This puts the trigger too close you so you follow instructions you found on this cool website and move the whole FCG forward and put a pistol grip in it's place. Your friend gave you his old Mak 90 trigger group and it fits and works just right. Now suddenly it feels and shoots awesome! It's almost like it was meant to be that way huh? You are manufacturing now, even though all you have done is changed the gun back to the way it was before it was neutered so they could sell it to us evil minded US citizens who can't be trusted with cool stuff. Or maybe it's all about money, but the rules say you cannot do that to this imported shotgun unless you replace at least 3 important parts on the gun with US made ones. Luckily the stock and PG you bought were American made but you still need one more part. You could just buy an american made gas piston and be ok but it is a pain in the a$$ to replace so you decide to spend a little more and replace the trigger group with an American made one. Now you have 5 US parts when you only needed 3. You can thread your barrel for factory chokes if you want now but just like the PG you are ADDING a feature that it was not imported with so you need an additional US part to compensate. You had two to spare so now you are even again. On the other hand If you have your barrel threaded for american made chokes then you still have one extra part so you can change over to a Romainian folding stock or maybe a Chinese wooden pistol grip but not both.

Then there's my case where I wanted to convert my threaded S12 to PG using all imported wooden furniture incl. the PG. Since there are only 7 US made parts currently on the market that I know of(possibly 8 if you count US made muzzle brakes and hiders that will go on the factory threads), and three of those are the stock, PG, and handguards that only leaves me with 4 or 5 to choose from. Unfortunately I have to add an additional US part for both the foreign PG and the threaded barrel, since they are optional, so that means I need 5 parts all together. Since I already have factory chokes and flash hider I chose hammer, trigger, disconnector, gas piston, the only things left. But I had to come up with another part on the list so I made my own floorplates to replace the ones in all my mags.

Just squeaked in under the radar!

Thanks RDSWriter

Untill someone comes out with a US made mag and gives us three more parts we can buy we are just going to have to make do. At least for now though it is just barely feasable to deck out your Saiga in foreign furniture with a little enginuity.

[RDSWriter 5]

Barrel extensions are things that attach at the breech end of the barrel on a Browning 1919 or the barrel extension (part 7 here) on an AR15 barrel.

 

FANTASTIC, thank you! I have been wondering what in the world a barrel extension is; this clarifies it.

Edited May 24, 2005 by RDSWriter

[G O B 3,516]

The difference between chokes and flash hiders/muzzle breaks is explained in 'definitions'. A choke is defined as part of the barell, a muzzlebreak or flash hider is defined as a muzzle attachment. It is not WHERE they are on the weapon, but what they DO. Also here in Maryland flash hiders are verboten, muzzlebreaks are OK ???? Depending on the manufacturer, the exact same device may be a flash hider according to manufacturer "A" and be illegal, and a muzzle break according to manufacturer "B" and be perfectly legal! (AAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!)

 

G O B

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have read a flash hider is designed only to supress the flash and help conceal your position when firing at the enemy.

A muzzle "brake" is designed to keep the muzzle from climbing during rapid fire and helps to reduce felt recoil. Like putting on the brakes on the muzzle. A muzzle brake has holes or slots cut in the top and sides for escaping gases to reduce muzzle flip and climb but it is solid on the bottom. The muzzle flash escapes around the sides stabilizing while pushing down on the solid bottom and keeping the barrel down. The solid part on the bottom is not just to keep the dust from flying when shooting in the prone position.

A flash hider has slots cut all around and disperses the flash in all directions but does not really effect muzzle climb or flip.

[emclean 0]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but from what I have read a flash hider is designed only to supress the flash and help conceal your position when firing at the enemy.

it is to help keep you from being effected by your muzzle flash, not to hide it from others

 

A flash hider has slots cut all around and disperses the flash in all directions but does not really effect muzzle climb or flip.

not alwase, the flash suppressor on the M16 A2, and M4 have solid bottems.

i have also seen yogo SKS's with gernade lanchers being called muzzle breaks, due to the holes in the end of them.

i guess it truly comes down to two things, what the maker calles it, and what you can convence the LEO what it is, there is too much overlap to have a good honist definion