Disco Hang up.

[redfish28 50]

Ok, so the S-12 has eaten everything I have given it up until today. I finally fed it sum weak Winchester stuff from Wally World and I ran into a problem. Everything fed fine but the disconnect at the rear would hang up on the hammer, not letting it fully reset. I shot some bulk federal after and had no problems. So what could be the problem. I mean the gun fed the next round but the hammer was just caught up. Help me out brothers.

 

Thanks,

RF

[RABIDFOX50 6]

Weak loads just are not cycling the action fully causing the problem I would guess. 3 port S12?

[lvkyle 9]

check to see if the trigger spring on the right side slipped off. It happened to me and I have to manually reset the trigger until I put spring back in place and bent it so hopefully it wont happen again. Its on the side the BHO is on.

[redfish28 50]

I checked and the spring is still good to go. It only does it on this Winchester crap. Just shot some more out back and had my first FTE with this stuff. It did not hang up this last few rounds. Wonder if its cause of weak ammo.

And yes Rabidfox 3 port S12.

 

Its weird cause when the Disco hangs up the rounds still feed and eject. This leads me to believe it may not be gas related.

Edited December 12, 2010 by redfish28

[Etek 32]

It IS weak ammo.

 

Crappy ammo can cause the bolt carrier to go back enough to eject shells but not far enough to set the hammer onto the disconnector.

 

Don't use shitty ammo in a Saiga 12.

[redfish28 50]

It IS weak ammo.

 

Crappy ammo can cause the bolt carrier to go back enough to eject shells but not far enough to set the hammer onto the disconnector.

 

Don't use shitty ammo in a Saiga 12.

 

 

I hear you on not using crappy ammo. I have had the s 12 for 2 years now without any issues due to my ammo selection. I was just thinking in a worst situation, where I would have to scrounge for ammo, I should probably try out the Win. junk. So the question is do I leave well enough alone, or due I aspire to use any and all ammo? What do ya think?

[mstumpe 1]

I had this problem. Carefully and slightly polish where the hammer and disco mate.

[DrGonZo 157]

1st check to make sure your ports are unobstructed. If they're not obstructed and of proper size I would suggest trying a JTE reduced power mainspring before you modify anything.

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-328/AK47-Saiga-JT-Engineering/Detail

 

It reduces the force it takes to reset the hammer, and still has enough power to strike the pin with enough force to reliably fire ammunition. If it still wont cycle ammo/reset trigger correctly, then try one of the many after market gas adjustment plugs.

From what I gathered from how you described your issue, one or both of those replacement parts should allow your gun you fire the cheapo low brass shells. If you try those parts and it still won't cycle that stuff, Then try a bolt re-profile/internal polish job. If you do all that and it STILL won't cycle the cheap stuff, sell that POS to me for a greatly reduced price and start over.

 

If your ports are obstructed and your gun is unmodified, contact Cadiz Gun Works for a warranty repair.

[Paulyski 2,227]

check to see if the trigger spring on the right side slipped off. It happened to me and I have to manually reset the trigger until I put spring back in place and bent it so hopefully it wont happen again. Its on the side the BHO is on.

 

This is the most common cause. The ENDS of the spring MUST bee all the way out & the bends touching the insides of the trigger legs.

If they've even slipped in a TINY bit it won't have the leverage to reset the trigger & you'll need to push the trigger forward to get the hammer in the trigger hooks.

Polishing all the metal to metal surfaces in the FCG, including where stuff rides around the axis pin will also help.

Also, a drop of oil helps too.

Also, if one neglects to remove enough off the BHO side of the hammer's axis, this could result in friction & binding that could contribute to this particular issue.

 

I use a micrometer to make certain my hammer's axis are exactly the same size as the factory's & polish the sides to make them smooth & avoid any possibility of added friction against the BHO or receiver.

 

As for the difference in ammo, I'd assume the weakness of Winchester may be just a touch less shock than the others have that jar crap & get stuff moving?

Or if you're using a different mag with the weaker rounds, maybe there's more spring force in that

 

 

Crappy ammo can cause the bolt carrier to go back enough to eject shells but not far enough to set the hammer onto the disconnecter.

From what I read, the hammer, I think I understood him as saying the hammer was actually making it into the disconnecter, but the trigger wasn't full resetting & getting the hammer into the trigger hooks.

I think that's what he's describing at least.

[Paulyski 2,227]

1st check to make sure your ports are unobstructed. If they're not obstructed and of proper size I would suggest trying a JTE reduced power mainspring before you modify anything.

http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-328/AK47-Saiga-JT-Engineering/Detail

 

It reduces the force it takes to reset the hammer, and still has enough power to strike the pin with enough force to reliably fire ammunition. If it still wont cycle ammo/reset trigger correctly, then try one of the many after market gas adjustment plugs.

From what I gathered from how you described your issue, one or both of those replacement parts should allow your gun you fire the cheapo low brass shells. If you try those parts and it still won't cycle that stuff, Then try a bolt re-profile/internal polish job. If you do all that and it STILL won't cycle the cheap stuff, sell that POS to me for a greatly reduced price and start over.

 

If your ports are obstructed and your gun is unmodified, contact Cadiz Gun Works for a warranty repair.

Before I'd put reduced power springs in a gun I'd make sure the ports were right.

 

I'm confused on his issue now though.

 

Hanging up on the disconnecter can mean 2 things. Does it actually make it into the disconnecter????

 

If it actually DOES make it into the disconnecter, reduced power mainspring would be the opposite of what he needs.

Otherwise, it would be a workable jerry rig.

 

 

ETA;

REDFISH...

DOES THE HAMMER ACTUALLY MAKE IT INTO THE DISCONNECTER?

We're unclear on this.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Paulyski

[redfish28 50]

Yes. The hammer is making it all the way back to the disco. Best way I can describe it, is that its like I was holding the trigger while pulling back the hammer. Normally when you let go of the trigger it will full reset and you can pull it again and the hammer will hit the firing pin. The disco just doesnt want to let go. If I jar the shotty it will reset. Once again only happens on Winchester 7 1/2 shot. Otherwise the gun has been flawless. I did the minimum polishing/profiling job on the hammer when I converted. I can still take a bit of material off and polish more if I need to. I think thats what needs to be done.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Yes. The hammer is making it all the way back to the disco. Best way I can describe it, is that its like I was holding the trigger while pulling back the hammer. Normally when you let go of the trigger it will full reset and you can pull it again and the hammer will hit the firing pin. The disco just doesnt want to let go. If I jar the shotty it will reset. Once again only happens on Winchester 7 1/2 shot. Otherwise the gun has been flawless. I did the minimum polishing/profiling job on the hammer when I converted. I can still take a bit of material off and polish more if I need to. I think thats what needs to be done.

Most important is the BHO side spring leg having a slight outward bend (in the middle of the spring leg) to ensure it's seated properly.

AKs don't have this issue, because they lack a BHO. The BHO pushes against the spring & makes it want to wander slightly to the center of the trigger leg.

 

Outside of that, de-burring around the rear axis pin where stuff rides, polishing the lip of the hammer that the disconnecter grabs, & a drop of oil will fix your issue.

 

Don't remove any metal from your hammer face or bottom of your carrier for this issue. That will not help it.

 

Good Luck.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Paulyski

[DrGonZo 157]

Yes. The hammer is making it all the way back to the disco. Best way I can describe it, is that its like I was holding the trigger while pulling back the hammer. Normally when you let go of the trigger it will full reset and you can pull it again and the hammer will hit the firing pin. The disco just doesnt want to let go. If I jar the shotty it will reset. Once again only happens on Winchester 7 1/2 shot. Otherwise the gun has been flawless. I did the minimum polishing/profiling job on the hammer when I converted. I can still take a bit of material off and polish more if I need to. I think thats what needs to be done.

Most important is the BHO side spring leg having a slight outward bend (in the middle of the spring leg) to ensure it's seated properly.

AKs don't have this issue, because they lack a BHO. The BHO pushes against the spring & makes it want to wander slightly to the center of the trigger leg.

 

Outside of that, de-burring around the rear axis pin where stuff rides, polishing the lip of the hammer that the disconnecter grabs, & a drop of oil will fix your issue.

 

Don't remove any metal from your hammer face or bottom of your carrier for this issue. That will not help it.

 

Good Luck.

 

I dont think the problem is part of the gun unless the ports are obstructed/improperly sized. He said it only happened with the cheapest of the low brass ammo he had and then functioned smoothly later with different ammo. If the gun hasn't been fully broken in, It will have issues cycling the lowest brass. I bet a few boxes of slugs and buck will ease up the recoil/main springs enough for it to cycle that walbogs low brass.

I had the same thing happen to my gun a few times after it wouldn't cycle low brass and I got a few parts to try to improve it. First I got a Gunfixer plug and that helped it cycle Federal Target Loads better and stopped the trigger reset issue (that only happened 2 or 3 times), then I got the JTE spring and that allowed it to cycle Winchester Super X. It still wouldn't cycle Estate Target Loads @1135fps, so I polished the hammer/disconnecter/guide rails/carrier and re-profiled the bolt/carrier/hammer, now it will shoot everything I feed it with ZERO issues.

I'm not saying your suggestions won't help. I think they will, but I think there are other reversible methods that should be tried first. JMHO

[Paulyski 2,227]

Yes. The hammer is making it all the way back to the disco. Best way I can describe it, is that its like I was holding the trigger while pulling back the hammer. Normally when you let go of the trigger it will full reset and you can pull it again and the hammer will hit the firing pin. The disco just doesnt want to let go. If I jar the shotty it will reset. Once again only happens on Winchester 7 1/2 shot. Otherwise the gun has been flawless. I did the minimum polishing/profiling job on the hammer when I converted. I can still take a bit of material off and polish more if I need to. I think thats what needs to be done.

Most important is the BHO side spring leg having a slight outward bend (in the middle of the spring leg) to ensure it's seated properly.

AKs don't have this issue, because they lack a BHO. The BHO pushes against the spring & makes it want to wander slightly to the center of the trigger leg.

 

Outside of that, de-burring around the rear axis pin where stuff rides, polishing the lip of the hammer that the disconnecter grabs, & a drop of oil will fix your issue.

 

Don't remove any metal from your hammer face or bottom of your carrier for this issue. That will not help it.

 

Good Luck.

 

I dont think the problem is part of the gun unless the ports are obstructed/improperly sized. He said it only happened with the cheapest of the low brass ammo he had and then functioned smoothly later with different ammo. If the gun hasn't been fully broken in, It will have issues cycling the lowest brass. I bet a few boxes of slugs and buck will ease up the recoil/main springs enough for it to cycle that walbogs low brass.

I had the same thing happen to my gun a few times after it wouldn't cycle low brass and I got a few parts to try to improve it. First I got a Gunfixer plug and that helped it cycle Federal Target Loads better and stopped the trigger reset issue (that only happened 2 or 3 times), then I got the JTE spring and that allowed it to cycle Winchester Super X. It still wouldn't cycle Estate Target Loads @1135fps, so I polished the hammer/disconnecter/guide rails/carrier and re-profiled the bolt/carrier/hammer, now it will shoot everything I feed it with ZERO issues.

I'm not saying your suggestions won't help. I think they will, but I think there are other reversible methods that should be tried first. JMHO

Okay, here's a prime example of a guy who hasn't actually inspected how his gun works, but has read a bit of our forum, so he thinks he does.

Sorry to come off harsh bro, but bear with me....

I'm not insulting your intelligence, just attempting to help you throughly understand how your weapons system works.

 

 

If the hammer makes it into the disconnecter & the shell ejects, clearing the gun & a new round loads you had enough gas for that round. Period.

 

When you fire a round, the carrier travels backward.

If you have enough meat on the bottom of the carrier & face of the hammer, the bottom of the carrier pushes the hammer down far enough to where the top of the hammer engages the disconnecter. (this is why during profiling it's important to know what you're doing, otherwise you'll remove too much steel & not push the hammer down far enough for the disconnecter to engage, or not far enough to allow the disconnecter time to travel forward & clip over the hammer... Off topic, but for anybody who reads this, when profiling NEVER remove steel all the way down the bottom of the carrier. Just smoothen the transisions to round the tips of the angles... If you DO screw that part up, & grind down the whole length, then your carrier no longer resets the hammer... Contact me. I can rebuild it out of tool steel & re-profile then polish it right.)

 

Once that carrier travels back far enough & pushes that hammer into that disconnecter, the gas & carrier have done their job as far as the FCG is concerned. (unless it's a select fire or FA gun, but that's a different FCG all together)

 

Now that the hammer is in the disconnecter, other parts go into play.....

If your finger still is holding the trigger in the pulled position, the hammer remains in the disconnecter. Once your finger releases the trigger, the mainspring pushes down on the rear of the trigger legs, pushing them down & the trigger moves forward, the disconnecter moves back, releasing the hammer & the hammer falls into the trigger hooks. Then you pull the trigger again & hopefully the same thing happens all over again.

 

Once again, once that carrier pushes the hammer back & down hard & deep enough to engage it into the disconnecter, the gas has done it's job as far as the FCG is concerned.

 

Now shit that can go wrong with the disconnecter releasing the hammer....

 

1- The disconnecter may be sharp at the tip or have a bur & catch a minute rough spot on the top of the hammer where it catches it;

This can happen from shooting a lot, because the back of the hammer actually wears the steel of the disconnecter a tiny bit each time it pushes it back, eventually resulting in a slight eagle beak shape at the tip of the disconnecter. Also, if the disconnecter manufacture messed up, or a kitchen table gunsmith hacked on it without knowing what he was doing, it could cause this.

This can be remedied by smoothening the area of the hammer that the disconnecter catches & smoothening the front tip of the disconnecter. (you smoothen, removing hardly ANY steel from the disconnecter. throw the dremmel away for this task. A few rubs with emery cloth or even rubbing the tip on a concrete curb would be better than the dremmel, as you really don't want to remove steel, just dull the tip.)

 

2- Binding;

Around the axis pin of the trigger, the Tapco's sleeve or the inside of the axis hole of the trigger may have a minute bur somewhere causing it to bind up slightly, then the axis pin actually becomes the part trying to rotate in the receiver. (with e-clips or a loose retainer plate the axis pin can make up for this & rotate, but if the gun is using a shepard's crook, it will be creating force/friction against the pin preventing this for the most part)

Binding can also happen if the trigger is tight in the trigger hole from a factory fuckup, either from the FCG manufacturer, or the maker of the receiver.

To remedy these, make sure there's no extra friction in the FCG.

 

3- Mainspring weak, or lacking proper leverage;

The disconnecter spring is strong. It needs to be to return quickly & grab the hammer during cycling. If not, it sets up a potential slamfire scenario*

The design of the FCG requires the legs of the mainspring to be to the out as far as possible on the trigger legs.

Unfortunately, the mainspring runs parallel to the trigger legs.

The mainspring legs WANT to self-spread & DO on AKs or AK based guns without a BHO, But add a BHO & it throws the geometry off, & pushes the BHO side mainspring leg inward.

If this happens, being as the spring leg & trigger legs run parallel to eachother, & the spring leg is only hooked over the side of the trigger leg to keep the spring from moving off the trigger leg, the contact point of the spring leg will not be at the furthest back possible point of contact on the trigger leg... The spring leg will be on top of the trigger leg & the wrong part of the spring will be pushing the trigger leg down.

It's like trying to break a bolt loose with a wrench & gripping the wrench up close to the bolt. Less leverage.

THIS IS THE MOST COMMON POST-CONVERSION ISSUE WITH S-12s equipped with BHOs..

 

 

Also, after stripping to paint, solvents used to remove oil do just that.

Slight corrosion can result, & one may find that after painting a gun this trigger reset issue can arise.

This has happened to me once & a drop of 10-30 motor oil on the trigger's axis to lube that area cleared it right up... There really is a reason all the guns come with an oil bottle from the factory.

The Tapco FCG with it's fucking split sleeve bullshit doesn't help.

Yes, Saiga's shipped over here in a sporter configuration also have the sleeve, but that's just for ease of assembly during production.

real AKs FCGs have no sleeve.

One must remember, these guns do resemble AKs, but they have been altered for economic reasons, like the demand for a BHO from those under the anal eye of blowjob range-"masters" who require the bolt held open for inspection & speeding up production led to the sleeve, Laws against FA led to a FCG redesign. The original redesign of the FCG was good, but when they added the damned sleeve, they screwed up.... But at least they don't waste time fumbling with parts during FCG installation.

The Texas Ak FCG & others omit the sleeve & that's better, but they also need modification to work in the S-12....

Makc, this forum's owner, recently sent a bunch of their FCGs out to be CNC modified & I may just pick one up for the reasons stated above.

(Funny story though...

Texas AK sent Makc a "dealer sample" FCG.... After he inspected it, he liked it, so he put in an order for 50... So what does Texas Ak do???

They send him 49, citing the dealer sample as 1 of the units in his order! )

 

 

*With regards to the possible slamfire issue outlined above, that triangular part that protrudes from the rear of the carrier is there to take the force of the hammer if it were to release before the bolt & carrier were in full battery. The rear shaft of the bolt is not extended rearward until the gun begins to enter battery.

This makes slamfire VERY rare on these guns, but if you have a really soft or abnormal primer in a round when the disconnecter fails to catch the hammer, you wouldn't want to risk the contact that actually does eventually take place between the hammer & FP is still a risk.

This makes slamfire unlikely, but still something to be avoided.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Paulyski

[danklab 57]

Pretty sure your mainspring is your issue, as has already been mentioned.

 

Just a question though... you do have your disconnector spring installed correctly right? I would think you'd have the opposite problem without it however.

[redfish28 50]

Pretty sure your mainspring is your issue, as has already been mentioned.

 

Just a question though... you do have your disconnector spring installed correctly right? I would think you'd have the opposite problem without it however.

 

Yes, I have it installed correctly. It hasn't hung up again but I'l be watching the main spring. When I converted the FCG I did put a slight bend in the spring to counter act BHO problems. Thanks for all the great input everyone.

Edited December 13, 2010 by redfish28

[danklab 57]

Sounds good.. Hopefully you got it worked out.

I actually had that happen in a regular old AK with no BHO.. one side of the mainspring was slipping inward and I needed to bend it to get my trigger to reset properly

[redfish28 50]

I was just thinking.... and wanted to make sure I bent the spring in the right direction. I grabbed it in the middle and bent the end towards the receiver. Any one have a better way of doing it?

[Fumes 84]

Sounds right, check the vid, 4th one down 6:00 in to it.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=57912

[redfish28 50]

Well I hope these springs are tough. I just bent the shit out of mine. I mangled it back and forth until I got it to stay put real well. Just out of curiosity, Is this a standard AK spring or is it S 12 specific? Should I ever need a new one would I be able to get one?

 

 

Does anyone have a picture of how they bent there's? Not trying to make this complicated but I just want to see how others have done it. Mine's had to be bent and twisted to stay put.

Edited December 13, 2010 by redfish28

[Paulyski 2,227]

Well I hope these springs are tough. I just bent the shit out of mine. I mangled it back and forth until I got it to stay put real well. Just out of curiosity, Is this a standard AK spring or is it S 12 specific? Should I ever need a new one would I be able to get one?

 

 

Does anyone have a picture of how they bent there's? Not trying to make this complicated but I just want to see how others have done it. Mine's had to be bent and twisted to stay put.

Yes, it is a standard braided AK mainspring. For that matter, It's worth mentioning that the extractor spring is also a standard braided AK extractor spring.

 

I put a slight outward bend in the middle of the straight part of the spring leg & that works for me.