FTE going to make me crazy

[Shadoh 16]

When I first got my S12 it was under gassed and would FTE. I opened up the ports to the ?/32 size Ive seen posted here and that cured the problem. When I got my MD drums it started up again so I smoothed up the bolt and that seemed to fix it. Now, months later it is starting to FTE again badly.

 

Every FTE the empty shell will stand straight up parallel to the gun but will not leave the gun. Then the carrier closes and comes to a stop on the sideways brass just above the next partially loaded shell from the magazine. Ive fired the gun with the cover off so I could watch the action and the carrier is coming all the way back fully. Ive even put putty on the trunnion so I could see how hard its hitting it and it is making contact. With my Tac auto plug I can adjust how hard it hits the trunnion but that makes no difference on the FTE's. Its doing this with the Tac plug as well as the factory plug. Ive pretty much convinced myself that its either the extractor, that lower nub opposite the extractor or the part of the receiver that strikes the empty shell and kicks it out (extractor pin?)

 

The part of the receiver that kicks out the shell is not cut at a 90 but instead has a slight backward angle to it. This means its hitting the edge of the shell first. I imagine I could square that up a bit or even undercut it and change the impact point on the empty shell casing to tune it a bit. What Im really looking for is some advice from folks who have seen this problem and what they did to fix it. Sending it to someone else for them to fix it isnt an option ).

 

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give me.

 

Edit: I should also note that when it does not FTE that is basically doing the same thing but the bolt is hitting the shell on the way forward and knocking them out. All my shells have always been thrown forward of the gun and a tad to the right. Ive never had them flying off to the side like Ive seen in many vids here.

Edited December 30, 2010 by Shadoh

[TwentyNizzo 66]

high or low brass?

Edited December 30, 2010 by TwentyNizzo

[Shadoh 16]

Both

[msrdiver 42]

On the surface, this doesn't appear to be an under gassed issue. Lemme tell you about my stove pipe experiences.

 

Mine mostly occurred when I was shooting Fiocchi White Rhinos (blue hulls). Although the brass plated steel head was 16mm tall, the rest of the shell was soft. The problem usually occurred after the gun was warmed up and I suspect the shell was sticking. I rarely had problems with other brands, but still did, and that's when I noticed how uneven the feed area was milled.

 

There was a large sharp point on the lower right of the chamber's entrance. The shells would deform and not extract properly. I saw score marks on the firmer Remington hulls. Occasionally, the Remington shell was dented on top of the shell by the sharp point. This also caused the shell to not extract properly. I dremmeled this area even and smooth and now the shells don't deform and all non Fiochhi shells extract without incident. Well OK, the shells with bad primers don't extract very well.....

[Paulyski 2,227]

Which mags are you running & does it happen the same on multiple mags including the Russian 5?

[dbrunette 22]

Have you added any accessories like rails, or is it in factory setup?

[Shadoh 16]

It does it with my MD20, Promag 12 and my factory 5. Ive got a Chaos Quad, Tac 47 Auto plug and its been restored to pistol grip. Ive taken off the rail and ran it with the factory plug with no change. The hulls are not damaged in any way other than the dent from being mashed between the bolt and the front of the gun on the brass section. I initially thought it was a gas problem and opened up my gas ports a second time one size larger than the recommended 9/32. I suspect my gun is actually a bit over gassed now but thats not a huge problem with the auto plug. At a guess I would say that I put at least 500 rounds through it after it was working the first time. By working I mean running Wally World Winchester bulk pack through all mags with no problems.

 

Would an under gassed gun still be cycling hard enough to touch the rear trunnion under recoil with the Winchester?

 

I almost believe that its an extractor problem. It seems like the when the shell is pulled back and hits the that leg that kicks it out its actually pulling it out from under the extractor and down rather than the extractor holding it and pivoting the shell up and out.

[dbrunette 22]

If you have taken the rail off and ran it (bare boned) with no rail wat so ever and that didnt' help the run, I have no idea man, sorry. Just keep reading the forum and maybe youll get lucky, I know I did.

[dbrunette 22]

I did polish my bolt, bolt carrier, and hammer a little bit B4 I figured out my UTG quad rail was clamped down to tight on the gun. I just used a dremel and it went very easily and very smooth. Good Luck .

[geepelton 105]

Try Federal or Remington bulk from wally world!!!!

[Shadoh 16]

I use both of those as well as the Winchester. I also use the Remington Sluggers and Shot as well as the Winchester Cheapo slugs. The Remington seems like the better slug though.

[Paulyski 2,227]

I wouldn't touch the ejector (that little piece of metal on the bottom of the receiver that hits the rear bottom of the shell & rides in the bolt's notch) until everything else was addressed first.

Can you post a pic of your ejector?

 

You may benefit from the extractor slot fix if you haven't done that already;

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51368&view=findpost&p=480426

 

 

 

At any rate, no more porting.

Your ports should be big enough.

Edited December 31, 2010 by Paulyski

[Bvamp 604]

before fucking with it any more, try smearing the contacting surfaces on the underside of the bolt and trigger group (read: hammer face) with transmission fluid. it isnt a fix, but its a quick way to make your action extra slick and see if resistance is the issue or not. its not a gun product, but it was invented to lube steel on steel in high temperatures.

 

also check the pins in your bolt head to ensure they arent moving.

 

once the gun loosens up a bit, as in the bolt carrier and op rod, you lose a little bit of the oomph from the gas piston hitting the op rod, and if you have an issue with say your hammer profile, it will show up then.

 

a huge percentage of cycling issues on converted guns revolves around the hammer profile, if you can believe that. start there. A flawed hammer face will cause problems immediately, and even if its only slightly out of spec will show issues down the road as the gun loosens up (the latter being normal for an AK)

 

stay away from winchester bulk pack. its crap and floor scrapings and not loaded evenly. get the federal 1 1/8 bulk pack if you shoot cheap shells, and make sure it works with THOSE.

 

with all these folks modifiying thier guns these days and playing with the gas and shit, in a few years this forum will turn into the "how do i fix this broken gun".

 

the answer to which will be "get another one, and dont take the engineering out of spec this time"

[macaholic 5]

before fucking with it any more, try smearing the contacting surfaces on the underside of the bolt and trigger group (read: hammer face) with transmission fluid. it isnt a fix, but its a quick way to make your action extra slick and see if resistance is the issue or not. its not a gun product, but it was invented to lube steel on steel in high temperatures.

 

also check the pins in your bolt head to ensure they arent moving.

 

once the gun loosens up a bit, as in the bolt carrier and op rod, you lose a little bit of the oomph from the gas piston hitting the op rod, and if you have an issue with say your hammer profile, it will show up then.

 

a huge percentage of cycling issues on converted guns revolves around the hammer profile, if you can believe that. start there. A flawed hammer face will cause problems immediately, and even if its only slightly out of spec will show issues down the road as the gun loosens up (the latter being normal for an AK)

 

stay away from winchester bulk pack. its crap and floor scrapings and not loaded evenly. get the federal 1 1/8 bulk pack if you shoot cheap shells, and make sure it works with THOSE.

 

with all these folks modifiying thier guns these days and playing with the gas and shit, in a few years this forum will turn into the "how do i fix this broken gun".

 

the answer to which will be "get another one, and dont take the engineering out of spec this time"

 

What have the most consistant numbers been on the gas ports of the three hole19" barrels, based on your personal experience? I only ask because I sent my Saiga 12 back under warrantee and it ran perfect on 1 1/8 and 1oz low brass on the #2 setting. I did'nt see any contact with the bolt and trunion either.

Edited December 30, 2010 by macaholic

[Bvamp 604]

most consistant in terms of what? the factory holes? or consistant in getting the gun running smoothly?

 

IF there isnt a hammer profile issue, and that is in spec, three .093 holes i believe is what the warranty spec calls for. it mighta been two .093 and one .096. whenever i fix one around here for a shop or someone, i just open the ports to .093, and havent had any issues. one guy was shooting the gun with a limp shoulder as is the tendency for AR guys without training do, and that contributed to his FTE issues.

 

I have a 2001 3 port gun with i dunno what port sizes, and one is partly blocked, and it doesnt give me problems with 1 1/8 oz bulk pack, but then again, its got so many rounds down it, its well loosened up. It has jammed 3 times on me in that time.

 

 

there are a bunch of factors, especially with converted guns as I stated, to consider with cycling issues.

[Paulyski 2,227]

It does it with my MD20, Promag 12 and my factory 5. Ive got a Chaos Quad, Tac 47 Auto plug and its been restored to pistol grip. Ive taken off the rail and ran it with the factory plug with no change. The hulls are not damaged in any way other than the dent from being mashed between the bolt and the front of the gun on the brass section. I initially thought it was a gas problem and opened up my gas ports a second time one size larger than the recommended 9/32. I suspect my gun is actually a bit over gassed now but thats not a huge problem with the auto plug. At a guess I would say that I put at least 500 rounds through it after it was working the first time. By working I mean running Wally World Winchester bulk pack through all mags with no problems.

 

Would an under gassed gun still be cycling hard enough to touch the rear trunnion under recoil with the Winchester?

 

I almost believe that its an extractor problem. It seems like the when the shell is pulled back and hits the that leg that kicks it out its actually pulling it out from under the extractor and down rather than the extractor holding it and pivoting the shell up and out.

You meant 3/32, right?

 

But the reason for this post, is I just notice your post here;

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=38318&view=findpost&p=559074

 

Great thread with tons valuable information, THANK YOU!!

 

Now for my question that I hope is different enough to warrant some feedback ).

 

I want to SBS my S12 to 11.5 inches BUT I dont want to move the gas block. Its not because I dont think I can do it its because I want to keep my Chaos Tri Rail and not have to remove the top to get to the gas plug. I shoot the hell out of the Wallyworld cheap stuff including the Winchester value pack and I want to continue to do so as well as the occasional slugs and heavy shot when I can find it in stock for cheap. I know Tromix says to move the gas block but Cadiz and Lonestar both have 11 and 12 inch SBS's with the block in the stock location. I was told its a "Trade Secret" and to send the gun in if I want my gun that way but if I cant do it myself then I wont have it done, thats half the fun of this gun, at least for me anyway.

 

Is there anyone with an SBS that short with the stock gas block that is still able to shoot whatever loads he wants that could throw some info/advice my way? I don't want to steal anyone's business or give away any top secret technology but come on, this isnt rocket science ), I will figure it out eventually I would just rather take the shorter road to get there especially when it comes to modifying hard to replace parts.

 

Second question, when you SBS your gun and you add a brake or breacher do you have to permanently attach it? Its seems like every time I see a post with an SBS they have the brake permanently attached. As long as the actual barrel is the length I apply for cant I hand anything off the end of it I want to?

 

Thanks guys

 

 

 

So, did you shorten yet, or is your gun still a 19"?

[Shadoh 16]

Its still at 19". I wouldnt even consider shortening it until I was happy with it at stock length, which I was, for over a month ). Yeah, 3/32, Im terrible at remembering numbers. Its actually one size larger than that now, which isnt much as I do have all the fractional and lettered sizes, well, allot of them anyway. I have a friend who has an S12 who says his will shoot the cheap crap and all he has done is convert it back to pistol grip. In the near future Im going to borrow it and try to find out what is different between our two guns.

[macaholic 5]

most consistant in terms of what? the factory holes? or consistant in getting the gun running smoothly?

 

IF there isnt a hammer profile issue, and that is in spec, three .093 holes i believe is what the warranty spec calls for. it mighta been two .093 and one .096. whenever i fix one around here for a shop or someone, i just open the ports to .093, and havent had any issues. one guy was shooting the gun with a limp shoulder as is the tendency for AR guys without training do, and that contributed to his FTE issues.

 

I have a 2001 3 port gun with i dunno what port sizes, and one is partly blocked, and it doesnt give me problems with 1 1/8 oz bulk pack, but then again, its got so many rounds down it, its well loosened up. It has jammed 3 times on me in that time.

 

 

there are a bunch of factors, especially with converted guns as I stated, to consider with cycling issues.

 

 

Thanks, I believe you answered my question.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Here's one thing to check...

 

I've found that another aspect of inconsistancy is the channel in the carrier & the rails that the carrier's ride on.

 

If your rails were a tight fit to your carrier in any way, then the rails had a soft soft spot & distorted at all, this could cause excess drag on the carrier.

To rule this possibility out, simply remove the hammer & see if there's any resistance from the rails to the carrier anywhere along the cycle.

If not, check if there's resistance from somewhere in the gas tube/op-rod interaction.

 

Just some more points to check before trying to make a new gas block..... (your latest topic)

[Shadoh 16]

Believe it or not my action is as smooth as glass in both directions. Someone had a video of his gun in the upright position as he showed his action being slowly allowed to go up to demonstrate that it wouldnt get hung up at all. Mine will do that with any mag in the gun and the mag follower pushing on the action. It will almost do it with a shell in the mag. I know gas is leaking from the gas blocks as you can see the carbon streaking coming out from the front of the block between the barrel and block. it also comes out of the holes that pin the block to the barrel.

 

I really appreciate the help and suggestions.