monomonk 0 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 After reading hundreds of messages about how to reshape the Saiga .308 for pistol grip and for hi-cap mags, and messages about adapting mags for it, I have finally concluded that, for me, it is best to leave well enough alone. My .308 happens to have a good trigger which is perfectly adequate for my needs. I do not feel any compulsion to put a pistol grip on this rifle or cut it up in hopes of making a hi-cap mag work. Take a deep breath and then you will see that eight round mags are perfectly fine for hunting or target shooting. No one is likely to take the Saiga .308 into battle and need to fire hundreds of rounds in a session. If you want an AK type rifle that takes standard AK rounds, buy the very fine MAK-90 or some alternative. If you must have a high capacity .308 rifle, buy one that that is made that way. Just my opinion. Monomonk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 After reading hundreds of messages about how to reshape the Saiga .308 for pistol grip and for hi-cap mags, and messages about adapting mags for it, I have finally concluded that, for me, it is best to leave well enough alone. My .308 happens to have a good trigger which is perfectly adequate for my needs. I do not feel any compulsion to put a pistol grip on this rifle or cut it up in hopes of making a hi-cap mag work. Take a deep breath and then you will see that eight round mags are perfectly fine for hunting or target shooting. No one is likely to take the Saiga .308 into battle and need to fire hundreds of rounds in a session. If you want an AK type rifle that takes standard AK rounds, buy the very fine MAK-90 or some alternative. If you must have a high capacity .308 rifle, buy one that that is made that way. Just my opinion. Monomonk <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Umm.... ok. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I do concur that the Saiga 308 is wicked competition as a sporting gun against the likes of the Remington 7400. If they do come out in 30-06 and 270 like they were supposed to years ago, they may well be the 7400's death blow. One reason I never believed Remington would import the Saigas (which everyone confuses with the Baikal line that is now Remington's Spartan line) is that they would absolutely kill the 7400. On the other hand, AKs in 308 are a rare and special variety. Look at what people pay for Zastava M90s and Galils. VEPR IIs as well. At some points, the S-308s have sold in the mid-$200 range. Add $100ish for US compliance and P-grip conversion parts, and add say $100 for an adaptor and several mags, and you have a high capacity AK durable rifle for under $500, about the same price as a Century built FAL or G3 clone. Having a G3 myself and wishing I had a FAL, I can definitely appreciate those other guns designed for hi-caps from the beginning. Time produces good ideas and bad ideas. It's one thing to place your confidence in a proven and reliable design as your best choice. More power to you. But all of these designs were new at some point. Some are better than others, some stand the test of time and become the proven designs of the future. You can be humble and place your confidence in the designs and work of others above yourself. In engineering, we are ethically bound to work only in areas where we believe we are competent (while still imperfect.) To me that is exemplified in what I do work on and what I don't, what I offer for sale and what I keep to myself. But if we don't try anything new we'll be in bad shape. We have to decide day by day whether to choose something new or something proven. We have to do both from time to time. The Saiga 308 itself is an example of innovation. I mean, fitting the full power 308 round in a standard AK-100 length action? Amazing. One of the reasons it does take so much to convert it to hi-caps as opposed to the other Saiga rifles. Years ago I scoffed at it as too much power in too weak a gun. And now I try to take it a step further. Iszmash did a great job with the Saiga-308. In its stock configuration it's a great hunting and target rifle that kicks Remington's butt. If that's what you want, great. I believe it can also kick the G3's butt and the FAL's butt and even the AR-10's butt, if in no other way but what it gives you for the price. BattleRifleG3 can't sell his G3. But he sure can complement it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 Oh, BTW, I'm not at all saying this is you, but some people in the world absolutely can't stand innovation on account that they don't understand it. They see NO value in developing ANYTHING new EVER. Folks said about a hundred years ago that everything which could be invented had been already. Boy were they wrong. Don't get be wrong, I LOVE my Mauser and use it more than my M1. I sold my AR because my AKs kicked its butt. And I chose a Hyundai Elantra over a Ford Focus mainly because it's more traditionally designed. But keep those new ideas rolling. They bring misfortune as much as benefit, but the alternative is misfortune without benefit. My ex girlfriend said she'd sick me on people to talk them to death. I hope you're still alive and enjoying your stock S-308. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monomonk 0 Posted July 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 G3, your first posting on this topic was fair-minded and reasonable. I recognize that some love to machine and drill and modify and that some believe that by remodeling a Saiga they can get something better at a good price. Of course, I am not opposed to innovation; in fact, I consider intellectual and technological advances the key to human progress and happiness (see Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged). But I think it is sometimes a mistake to buy a Honda Civic and try to make it into a Ferrari. One may end up with something which is inferior to both automobiles. Monomonk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I agree on the Civic. Of course there my tastes come in. But yeah, I can't stand seeing Cobalts and Neons decked out like a sports car. Then again, I don't like sports cars to begin with. I like big trucks and I cannot lie. Maybe if I really liked sports cars I'd go for a decked out Civic. Me, I'm a fan of the full power battle rifles. I love intermediate rounds like the X39, but see an important place for the 308. Which is why I find a value in hi-capping the S-308, full power with AK durability. Can't say I'm accurate enough myself to warrant a 308 over an X39, but I'm getting there, ever so slowly... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 quote: I sold my AR because my AKs kicked its butt --------------------------------------------------------- ha! once again, proof that the ak is better! i love it! i too see nothing in converting my 308 or my x39 or my 12ga or my 20ga. they are perfectly fine the way they are (to me). if i want a pistol grip and a 100 round mag i'll just grab my mak90. if i want a 308 with 30 round mags, i'll just buy a cetme or fal or m14. my saigas are staying stock for as long as i own em. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris410 0 Posted July 1, 2005 Report Share Posted July 1, 2005 I dont know, I find PG stocks far more comfortable, I just cant wrap my hand around most "traditional" stocks in a way that I like, I always end up kind of hanging my thumb over back of the thing and my wrist just wont twist to allow my non trigger fingers to grip the stock. I thought the trigger on my 410 was sufficient but now having it converted, in comparison to my standard s-308 the converted trigger feels much better. (To me) As far as capacity goes, if 8 rounds of 308 dont get your point across, you're probably better off with a pair of running shoes. However, I wouldnt mind having hi-caps though, just for the fun factor, but as many of you state, " if I want to waste ammo I have a x39 AK". I like the idea of BRG3's G3 adapter, but like many others am a bit weary of permanently mod'ing my receiver. But with the price of g3 mags it is almost justifiable. I dont know. I guess I'm just an undecisive prick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 As long as you don't ask for one unless you actually want one... I concur that X39 is a better blaster round. But 308 isn't much more expensive than 223, which the AR folks blast with all day. One reason I went for the G3 mag conversion to the S-308 is that factory mags are expensive when you can find them. And that was when they were $20! With the PG conversion, you also have a less barrel-heavy arm, and a shorter one too. I concur also that the P-grip is more natural. That's actually why it was used in the first place. I'm currently designing a standard stock to give the best of both worlds. I also concur that the standard FCG, especially the G2s, are some of the best triggers out there. Way better than my AR's (whose butt my AKs kicked... right out of my gunsafe ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 (edited) I had to read over the original post and replies a few time before I think I finally wrapped my head around what was trying to be conveyed. So hopefully I can have a little more input. All the projects I've taken on are not just improving, or customizing some item. They almost always have the theme of making something do what it shouldn't... and do it VERY well. For example.. my '66 mustang can out handle most new cars and I'm working on a new powerplant for it... a turboed charged aussie inline 6cylinder. Why? Because it's unusual and a challenge. My 10/22 is shooting under 1/2MOA and groups keep getting smaller... with only $150 invested in it. ( including used rifle) and the list goes on from there. And there in lies my fascination with the Saiga .308. I love the AK platform... the more rifles I shoot, the more I like it. Probably why I own 2 variants and an looking at a 3rd. I love everything about the gun, the overly simplistic action, the raw ruggedness, even the egronomics. Now wrap that all around a time proven do-it-all cartridge and whats not to love? As G3 said, the Saiga pretty much blows away all its competition especially if you consider the price! So why screw with it? Because I can see the potential for it to be more... more than it should be. I know I can make one shoot under MOA without sacrificing reliability. I've got a pretty good idea floating about in my head on how to change to a fully freefloated bullbarrel AK. Now what isnt sexy about that???? The "sporter" stock just isnt comfortable to me on an AK platform... but I can change that easy. And I'd make my own furnature for it. So in one inexpensive rifle I can have a fun blaster/hunting rifle/ SHITF weapon. For me, thats something worth trying because I do have the time, knowledge, and ability. And incase you're wondering just how twisted I am... I plan on building (ground up) a 1900lb 2 seat midengine roadester... powered by a 1.9L turbo diesel making about 220hp/300ft-lbs Gearing is going to be tricky or it'll be a smoke machine. In comparison, modifying a Saiga 308 is nothing. Edited July 2, 2005 by Dieseler Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grizzlybigbore 0 Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 het dieseler, ive been thinkin about a project involving cars myself. how about a 1977 corona with an offenhauser 20r motor and tri power cylinder head? i have no idea what i am getting myself into but its because of the challange. i think 1500 horsies would be really fun, thats why im thinkin about doin it. about the saiga----i could do the conversion really easily, but i love it how it is. no modding for me(unless i get another 308) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 2, 2005 Report Share Posted July 2, 2005 My hat's off to you, Dieseler on the car stuff. I hope to some day do a freakish conversion or two on automobiles. My tastes are quite different so it would be interesting to see how it would turn out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 My hat's off to you, Dieseler on the car stuff. I hope to some day do a freakish conversion or two on automobiles. My tastes are quite different so it would be interesting to see how it would turn out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Compared to sitting down the other night and shimming my reciever to remove .016" of lateral play.... cars are easy. If it's close... hit it with a hammer, she'll fit. Really it all comes down to... we do what we do cause we like it. As long as you're having fun with what YOU do then everything is all good, no need to punk others for enjoying different things. I was at the range awhile back, guy to my right had a bone stock Saiga.308. The guy to my left had what once was a Rem700 in a custom stock and was fitted with a wildcat cartridge Shilen barrel. I was plinking with a Sar-2. And we were all having fun, thats what matters! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 HIS STOCK WAS MADE OUT OF BONE?!?!?!??????? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 HIS STOCK WAS MADE OUT OF BONE?!?!?!??????? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Makes for a true "evil feature" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 heres to hoping it will be made out of Hillary's SKULL BONE! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tbaus 0 Posted July 3, 2005 Report Share Posted July 3, 2005 (edited) It is interesting reading both points of view. I bought my .308 Saiga with the long barrel and wooden stocks because I like the way it looks. I got in the Saiga "action" after the prices started going up. If I could pick up another .308 with plastic stocks at the old prices, I would put on a pistol grip and other AK style "stuff" in a heartbeat. I think both "variants" are cool. My Saiga .308 shoots very respectable groups and looks ( I think) cool in it's stock configuration with the Russian side-mount scope mount with a short tube 3x9 scope sitting atop it. I forgot to say that I would go for hi-cap mags if they became available at a reasonable price. What projects I have heard about are modifying mags to work with the Saiga, not modifying the Saiga to work with hi-cap mags.(other than 7.62x39 mods to make them take standard AK mags) I bought an extra standard .308 mag for my rifle and it set me back $50! No eight round mag should cost $50! That's a little much! Bravo to you guys that are working on making other mags work on the Saiga! Good shootin'... Edited July 3, 2005 by tbaus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jsf 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 I did the conversion because I could not stand the standard trigger, the idea of a trigger that has a upward motion to it's pull was very unnatural to me, plus the standard stock , I could not get a comfortable grip on it, although I shot it well.I think the reason most convert is we can not leave well enough alone we have to as we see it improve the product. It's the nature of the beast.Plus I like assultie looking weapons, I donot need a high cap. mag although I like the look. I don't care for blasting away, but if someone else does I say enjoy. I was skeptical of a 308 Ak at first and still am but everytime I shoot it, it grows on me more and more, when I go to the range guess what I pick first to bring, my Ak's 308 & 223. I got in on Saiga's while they where still a bargain and I would buy one again if the price is right and convert to pistol grip,but not at the price I see some asking.They'r still out there at good prices but we have to keep our eyes open, some gun shops don't know what Saiga's are and are still selling at old prices, that's how I found my 223 the gun shop said he couldn't sell it, said he had it for almost 2 years. That my story and I'am sticking to it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danny boy 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 How bout a 3.8 from a Buick GN in a Pontiac Fiero with a Porsche transaxle? That's some doin'. Why? Well, why not??? Stretch the frame 7", mod the subframe and bolt it in. Sucks my new house doesn't have a garage that I can work in so THAT project has been on hold for a while. This pretty much happened with my Saigas. My .223 is now an AK101, and my S.308 now is setup as a lo-buck Romak3. I can't leave well enough alone. I don't care for actually using hicaps much anymore and have no interest in a high cap .308. The 8 round has never been loaded with more than 5 anyway, and I use the 5 rounder for my Romak3. What I do with these rifles doesn't warrant a higher capacity. I do use 30rounders in my .223 and x39 AKs except for when I'm sighting them in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 jsf thats how i just got my x39 a few eeks ago. found it buried at a local shop they been having it since 1999. you could tell by the dust. only paid $175 for her! thats not too bad of a price for a never fired saiga nowadays. ok ok ya'll are breaking me down. if i ever got a duplicate i'd probably consider converting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 How bout a 3.8 from a Buick GN in a Pontiac Fiero with a Porsche transaxle? That's some doin'. Why? Well, why not??? Stretch the frame 7", mod the subframe and bolt it in. Sucks my new house doesn't have a garage that I can work in so THAT project has been on hold for a while. Ya dont even have to stretch the frame! I know you can wedge a 400 smallblock chevy in a Fiero without modding the enginebay/frame. The stock transaxle is good for a deceint amount of power as long as you keep away from slicks. Yes, I have thought of doing that.... deffinetly would be a deathtrap on wheels! I wish I could find a cheap Saiga rifle laying around! Pawnshop back home had one for $400 .... this is when CDNN was carrying them cheap! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 dieseler what caliber and where are you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dieseler 0 Posted July 4, 2005 Report Share Posted July 4, 2005 dieseler what caliber and where are you? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm looking for a .308 and i'm in oklahoma Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TWGLADF 0 Posted July 5, 2005 Report Share Posted July 5, 2005 ok well good luck then i haven't seen a 308 since all this importation crap started. the local shop i got my x39 from may have a couple more. i'm in la so i don't guess it would do you any good anyway. goood luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 To each his own! Some like the 'sporter' configuration and some don't. I like my .308 woodie stock, I put a "tank cannon" break from AA-OK on one of Rick-16's adapters, with a 3X9X50 scope and that one is almost done (needs a leather lace-on cheek piece and a fiberglass re-inforcement of the forestock). My S-12 is stock except for the russmil raised front sight, and althow it will not get pistol gripped, it will get wood furniture and screw chokes with the muzzle break (gunneers choice) and also the 'paradox' choke. However for the wife's .410 (pix in the.410 thread) I did the conversion to PG and underfolder stock. I plan to aquire a S7.62-39 and a S.223 - both of wich will get PG conversions and green nato- length furniture. If funds permit I would love to do one each of those two with underfolders also. As far as franken automibilia goes-- I once had a '67 Dodge 1/2 ton with a 331ci/in hemi from a '54 Imperial and a 4 speed from a '67 Charger. That was a BLAST to drive! For my retirement (5 years off) I am working on a '77 Suburban with the 9000# tow package, with a 500 cu/in Cadallac engine and a turbo 400 trans with the 'switch pitch' converter. I figure that this will be the perfect combo to pull a camper around the country! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danny boy 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 The GN 3.8 is turbo and the engine is going in longitudinal. SBC kits are everywhere for these cars and I want something different. It won't even really be a fiero when its done- entirely different interior, long ways engine, Ferrari F355 front clip (I love the kit car industry), Tubular front suspension/custom coilover rear setup, 7" longer and 4" wider, its gonna be mean! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
monomonk 0 Posted July 10, 2005 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2005 I have been considering the FAL and the Cetme as an alternative to the .308 Saiga. But all of these rifles which sell under $2000 or so are parts guns assembled in the US and of unpredictable quality. The better US made FALs (DSA) and Cetme/HK91s (JLD) sell for $700 to $1000 or more. The Saiga .308 is a quality AK action rifle, not a reassembled parts gun, and I bought mine for $250. Because the .308 round is quite robust, I do not feel the need to rapid fire 20 or 30 at a time. If I want to do that, I can use my Mini 14. So, for me, the eight round mags are adequate. If some reasonably priced hi-caps come to market, I will buy some. Monomonk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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