S12 double stack mag quick sketch

[Jpanzer 1,265]

And you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche market? Ok...how many people want or need a quad stack AK mag? My 30 round mags work just fine, and if I want more capacity RPK mags are easy to find.

 

The S12 market is exploding, I don't see the quad stack project as doing anything other than diverting resources and time from what his main focus has always been...the S12.

 

But hey, it's his business, not mine....

 

How many people want or need a big ass 20rd drum? Apparently EVERYONE.

 

Why the fuck would I want a long ass 45rd RPK mag when I could get a 60rd quad stack? FOR THE SAME REASON YOU WANT A DOUBLESTACK .. it shortens the mag and gives higher capacity.

 

And yes.. the S12 market has always been his core focus -- and THAT is PRECISELY why he needs to diversify: to have revenue streams apart from one single shotgun. A shotgun that now has competition from the MK1919.

 

Its pretty freakin clear dude.. he is making the right choice for his business. If folks don't like that, well.. pound sand. Because you're right .. it ISN'T your business.

 

 

Sounds like you work for him pal. Bully for you...

 

Again, if you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche product, you clearly don't understand the definition of the term. If he was making 30 round AK mags to compete with, oh I dunno, US Palm maybe, I could see your point. But a quad stack is not catering to the ENTIRE AK MARKET, only a fraction of it. I think most people would agree not every AK owner will buy one, just like not every S12 owner has bought a drum.

 

 

But hey buddy, you can pound that sand of yours and anything else you want with it,- just be careful if you are using a drum to do it with, since that might fit in your mouth better than it will the other end...

Edited July 25, 2011 by Jpanzer

[FL Thunder Stick 21]

Sounds like you work for him pal. Bully for you...

 

Again, if you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche product, you clearly don't understand the definition of the term. If he was making 30 round AK mags to compete with, oh I dunno, US Palm maybe, I could see your point. But a quad stack is not catering to the ENTIRE AK MARKET, only a fraction of it. I think most people would agree not every AK owner will buy one I would buy at least four!, just like not every S12 owner has bought a drum I bought four.

 

 

But hey buddy, you can pound that sand of yours and anything else you want with it,- just be careful if you are using a drum to do it with, since that might fit in your mouth better than it will the other end...

 

 

I will buy anything if I think it's collectible!

 

 

FTS

[sickness 89]

Sounds like you work for him pal. Bully for you...

 

No. I just hate the communist mentality that says business owners should cater to something other than self-interest.

 

Again, if you don't think a quad stack mag is a niche product, you clearly don't understand the definition of the term. If he was making 30 round AK mags to compete with, oh I dunno, US Palm maybe, I could see your point. But a quad stack is not catering to the ENTIRE AK MARKET, only a fraction of it. I think most people would agree not every AK owner will buy one, just like not every S12 owner has bought a drum.

 

Sure every S12 owner doesn't own a drum.. that was hyperbole on my part. If you want to get all literal, you're right. But I'd bet the vast majority do, are planning to - or would LOVE to if their local laws didn't prohibit it. I think it is pretty clear that, around here at least, folks love their drums. I don't recall anyone saying the MD20 is a waste of money, or that they don't like it. I don't recall anyone saying that don't want one to play with.

 

So yeah, if the AK quad stacks are a niche market - well, SO IS THE DRUM. So are S12 doublestacks for that matter.

 

And yes, not EVERY AK owner will buy one. But if 10% do, that is still bigger than the entire S12 market.

Edited July 25, 2011 by sickness

[aka_mythos 35]

This is a quick sketch I made after thinking about the compactness of a double stack mag on an S12. Its not perfect and needs a lot of refinement but I wanted to know what you guys think about a double stack mag for the S12. Would you buy one? Is it worth the trouble?

 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a market for this and if I should use my time and resources to create them.

I'd buy one. Its certainly worth the trouble and relative to other S12 accessories is relatively low hanging fruit considering the varied examples of double stacked magazines for rimmed cartridges.

 

The big issue you need to address in designing a double stack magazine is that with rimmed cartridges how the rimmed section with sit relative to each other. This has some of the greatest impact on angles and potential binding.

 

Once you have design thats proven to work you have to decide if its worth your time to produce it yourself. It maybe more worthwhile for you to just sell your working design rather manufacture it yourself. The problem with anyone other than an established manufacturer making magzaines is that its a more price sensitive product and you really need that economy of scale to reach a reasonable price point.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Mythos

[tokinshitload 12]

This is a quick sketch I made after thinking about the compactness of a double stack mag on an S12. Its not perfect and needs a lot of refinement but I wanted to know what you guys think about a double stack mag for the S12. Would you buy one? Is it worth the trouble?

 

I'm trying to figure out if there is a market for this and if I should use my time and resources to create them.

I'd buy one. Its certainly worth the trouble and relative to other S12 accessories is relatively low hanging fruit considering the varied examples of double stacked magazines for rimmed cartridges.

 

The big issue you need to address in designing a double stack magazine is that with rimmed cartridges how the rimmed section with sit relative to each other. This has some of the greatest impact on angles and potential binding.

 

Once you have design thats proven to work you have to decide if its worth your time to produce it yourself. It maybe more worthwhile for you to just sell your working design rather manufacture it yourself. The problem with anyone other than an established manufacturer making magazines is that its a more price sensitive product and you really need that economy of scale to reach a reasonable price point.

Mythos,you nailed the problem with having a double stacked shotgun magazine. I believe the best comparison to a Saiga shotgun magazine would be a magazine for a Ruger 10/22. Both have a rimmed cartridge that leads to an inherent inability to feed well when stacked next to each other. Comparing the two platforms and what has been already tried,failed and worked the best bet for a slender large capacity magazine for the 12g platform would be a tear drop magazine. It would be possible to have a 20 round magazine(or 25) in a similar length of a 8 or 10 round magazine with the width a little wider than a double stack. The challenge wouldn't be in making the platform feed, but durability of parts.

xacex

Edited July 27, 2011 by xacex

[jekbrown 14]

I hear what you're saying, but the bottom line is, if this line of reasoning is actually being followed, we'll never see DS S12 mags from MD. After all, the AK mag market could get shut down tomorrow too, along with the S12 one, so quick, let's design/prototype/test/market/produce a drum mag for the Ruger M77. Before it's to late!! You could go round-and-round with a "this might be banned!" theory until you are blue in the face. Meanwhile, your most dedicated cutomers are slowly but surely, one by one, giving up hope and moving on to other things...

[Goose 95]

MD is a smart man, he's made and marketed several great products and has a great fan base, so to speak. And yes, any type of mag will be a niche, but considering that the quad stack has already been designed and produced by several other companies, it's important for him to get his quad stack out there asap before two or three large companies take over before he can get his name out there for the AK shooters. It's a niche he needs to get his foot into quickly. And considering how many people already have quad stacks out, and how good Mike is, I'm sure it won't be too long before he gets back on the double stacks for the S12. As much crap as he put up with from the guys at Alliance Armaments and how hard he fought to defend his integrity as a business man I bet he's chompin at the bit to get a quality product out there that AA hasn't even dreamed of yet. I don't think its right or productive to get upset at a man who's trying to design several things from scratch, and run a business ethically, when he doesn't meet a deadline that he hasn't been paid to meet yet. It also isn't right to start an argument that is taking place in several places, on someone's thread they started to get some fresh eyes on a project he's working on. Enough people want this to happen badly enough (including me) that it will definitely happen. Until then there's not much we can do but be patient, keep encouraging the people that are working on them, and keep saving our money for that glorious day lol.

 

 

Nick89- the sharp angle of the follower will push the last round into the side too hard. what if you mad the follower from two pieces, that stayed close and kept a flat profile, but when it got to the neck the middle sorta telescoped up toward the feed lips? that way the follower wouldnt twist and press inside the body of the mag, but still was able to push the last round all the way up.