IMPORTATION OF MAGS

[ironmike82 0]

I was all set to pay for two 8rd mags for the saiga 12 that I use on duty in my police car, when I found that it is illegal for anyone, even a cop, to import shotgun mags in excess of 5rd capacity. I told him to block the mags to only accept 5rds. Then an attorney here were I live brought a very concerning bit of info to my attention. All the ATF or ny other fed. agency like customs needs to do is show illegal intent to establish probable cause to arrest you and make a case against you. Even more concerning is that when the feds make an arrest on weapons importation laws, the suspect cannot bond out like a regular state or local offender could. You will remain in jail untill your trial. Yes you may import a 5rd mag, but if the mag is later converted back to 8rd capacity, you may have more problems than any responsible american gun owner is entitled to. If you think that those hemp smoking gun grabbers arent just dying to make an example of someone this close to the AWB sunset, you've missed the boat. Believe me, I want these mags more than anyone, but prison is a bitch. Let me do some homework with the ATF through the resources that I have available to me at my dept. and I will get back with all of you.

[KySoldier 2]

Yeah, try to find that law, I'd be interested in seeing it as well!

[Bvamp 604]

this is such bullshit these laws i tell ya. the damn POLICE shouldnt have to go through loops to do this but it looks doable with the right forms and licenses/permissions.

 

when the ATF refers to a magazine, they refer to the casing itself, correct? meaning a magazine body is still that 8 round magazine body. you would have to cut it to import it according to what your attourney says and what the definition is of commiting the offense. I dont like what lawyers say when you ask them about gun control laws. They seem to be leery about it for some strange reason, as well as totally convinced about things. They live to think the law tho, and with these types of laws we have here I can see why they are like that BUT...The magazine laws are a part of the assault weapons ban basically, and from the way I'm seeing it, if your saiga can take the ten part/rule thing and fall into a assault weapon, it would be a crime. meaning they said 5 rounds is the limit on the post-ban shotguns, mag manufacture of that large size is prohibited, and that would make them also non-importable. I DO see a form on the ATF site for firearm importation that specifically says on the bottom of it that magazines do NOT fall into that form here:

 

http://www.atf.gov/forms/pdfs/f53303d.pdf

 

I cant seem to find the ACTUAL form for the importation of large capacity magazines for some reason but im sure its in there somewhere...

 

HOWEVER I found this in a faq:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

 

(O11) What documentation must a manufacturer, importer, or dealer obtain from law enforcement officers who purchase semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices for official use? [back]

 

Licensees may transfer semiautomatic assault weapons and large capacity ammunition feeding devices to law enforcement officers with the following documentation:

(1) a written statement from the purchasing officer, under penalty of perjury, stating that the weapon or device is being purchased for use in performing official duties and that the weapon or device is not being acquired for personal use or for purposes of transfer or resale; and

(2) a written statement from a supervisor of the purchasing officer, under penalty of perjury, stating that the purchasing officer is acquiring the weapon or feeding device for use in official duties, that the weapon or device is suitable for use in performing official duties, and that the weapon or device is not being acquired for personal use or for purposes of transfer or resale. In the case of a transfer of a semiautomatic assault weapon, the supervisor's written statement must also state that a records check reveals that the purchasing officer has no convictions for misdemeanor crimes of domestic violence. In the case of semiautomatic assault weapons, licensees are required to retain the above statements in their permanent records for a period of 5 years. [27 C. F. R. 178.129, 178.132, 178.134]

 

(O12) May licensed manufacturers, licensed importers, and licensed dealers stockpile semiautomatic assault weapons for future sales to law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers employed by such agencies? [back]

 

Yes. Semiautomatic assault weapons may be transferred directly to law enforcement agencies with a purchase order. Licensed manufacturers and licensed dealers may transfer semiautomatic assault weapons to any Federal firearms licensee upon obtaining evidence that the weapons will only be disposed of to law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers for official use. Examples of acceptable evidence include the following:

 

1. Contracts between the manufacturer and dealers stating that the weapons may only be sold to law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers.

2. Copies of purchase orders submitted to the licensee by law enforcement agencies.

3. Copies of letters submitted to the licensee by government agencies or law enforcement officers expressing an interest in purchasing the weapons.

4. Letters from dealers to the manufacturer stating that sales will only be made to law enforcement agencies or law enforcement officers.

5. Letters from law enforcement officers as described in Question O11.

 

The above evidence must be maintained in the records of Federal firearms licensees for a period of 5 years.

 

ATF Form 6 applications for the importation of nonsporting weapons, including semiautomatic assault weapons, are approved only if the importer submits a purchase order from a governmental entity. Therefore, importers and dealers may not maintain an inventory of imported assault weapons. [18 U. S. C. 922( v)( 4), 27 C. F. R. 178.40, 178.129( e); ATF Rul. 80-8]

 

(O13) Will manufacturers, importers, and dealers in large capacity ammunition feeding devices be permitted to stockpile devices for sale to governmental entities? [back]

 

Yes. Possession and transfer of these devices by manufacturers, importers, or dealers will be presumed to be lawful if they maintain evidence that the devices are possessed and transferred for sale to government agencies and law enforcement officers employed by such agencies. Examples of acceptable evidence are the same as those set forth in Question O11, relating to semiautomatic assault weapons. The importation of ammunition feeding devices requires an approved ATF Form 6 issued by ATF. ATF will approve an ATF Form 6 application to import such devices when submitted with a purchase order from a law enforcement agency or evidence that the device is being imported for sale to a government agency or law enforcement officer employed by such agency. A Form 6 will also be approved when an application is submitted with a statement by the importer that the devices are being acquired for resale to law enforcement agencies and/ or law enforcement officers for official use. ATF will stamp or type a restriction on the Form 6 stating that the devices are approved for importation and sale only to law enforcement agencies or law enforcement officers in accordance with 18 U. S. C. 922( w)( 3). A Form 6 will also be approved if there is physical or documentary evidence establishing that the magazines were manufactured on or before September 13, 1994. Examples of such evidence are listed in 27 CFR 178.119( c)( 7). Imported magazines manufactured on or before September 13, 1994, may be sold without restriction. [18 U. S. C. 922( w)( 3), 27 CFR 178.40a and 178.119]

 

 

(O14) What markings must appear on semiautomatic assault weapons manufactured after September 13, 1994? [back]

 

In addition to the markings required of all firearms pursuant to 27 C. F. R. 178.92( a)( 1), the frames or receivers for semiautomatic assault weapons must be marked "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/ GOVERNMENT USE ONLY" or, in the case of weapons manufactured for export, "FOR EXPORT ONLY." [18 U. S. C. 923( i), 27 CFR 178.92( a)( 2)]

 

 

(O15) What markings must appear on large capacity ammunition feeding devices manufactured after September 13, 1994? [back]

 

Persons who import large capacity ammunition feeding devices manufactured after September 13, 1994, or manufacture large capacity ammunition feeding devices must legibly identify each device imported or manufactured by serial number and other prescribed markings. The same serial number may be used for all devices manufactured or imported. Such devices must also be marked "RESTRICTED LAW ENFORCEMENT/ GOVERNMENT USE ONLY" or, in the case of devices manufactured for export, "FOR EXPORT ONLY." Domestically made devices must also be marked with the name, city and state of the manufacturer. Imported devices must be marked with the same of the manufacturer, country of origin, and name, city and state of the importer. Persons who manufacture or import metallic links for use in the assembly of belted ammunition are only required to place the prescribed identification marks on the containers used for packaging the links. [18 U. S. C. 923( i), 27 CFR 178.92( c)]

 

there is more on that document if you need to read more. Most lawyers will just look those document #'s up and read them btw....

 

now the actual PENALTY? well I know the hippes are on a witch-hunt too, so I am guessing that you would get hit with a illegal assault weapon importation thing. as WELL as the guy mailing it to you, but they could just use a false name anyway. I asked someone that was in counter-terrorism in one of the govt. agencies about importing dragunov stocks, or even ANY 3rd world ak furniture. he said HIS supervisor said no. cant do it. and that was using channels. so I think you have to do some paperwork and fill out some forms and you might even need to have your FFL holder in your stationhouse get them for you from the guy and mark them, at the least.

 

not my usual thing posting law and such, but i think that one was pretty FOUL and the amount of stuff i had to dig through to figure that stupid bullshit out was just easier to post here in a massive reply. sorry, ill get back to being brief now...

[Lagomorph 0]

Wow, Bvamp, you actually submitted suportive documentation instead of "its illegal" B.S. Good job. But, hopefully, later on this year most of that crap won't mean very much with the expiration of the 94 ban (hope hope) Whoopie!

[ironmike82 0]

Well, I had to pull a few strings, but I actually got the agent in charge of firearms tech. on the phone, and the answer isn't good. Besides the fact that he was a CONDESENDING PRICK!!! (Probably why they have him riding a desk) Importing these mags is not a good idea. Here's why. Even if I import these mags as 5 rounders, the second that I convert that mag back to 8 rouns and join it with the weapon, I have, at that point, manufactured a weapon that is illegal to import. Just because it came here in peices, doesn't make it any more leagal once it is joined into a whole weapon or weapons system. They told me that you don't get special right just because your a cop. I told him, in an insulted voice, that that wasn't what I was implying, I was calling him to avoid breaking the law!!! It looks like any weapon of this type will have to be a department owned weapon in order to keep these guys off your back. Guess we'll all just have to wait for AUG 2004!!! Come on sunset, we're waitin' on ya baby!!! I'm not telling any of you to not go and buy these items, I'm just relaying info that came straight from the horse asses mouth.

[Bvamp 604]

the thing is though, if you have that 8 rounder imported, you need to serial # it, you need to LEO stamp it, you need a note (yes a note) from your supervisor, and his supervisor, you need an FFL holder, you need that FFL holder to be in your dept., THEN you need some stupid FORM which you cant FIND to allow your FFL holder to temporarily import items, THEN you need to find yourself a saiga made before the ban date. If it were another gun that was made preban, you wouldnt have that kind of problem. Your dept can import em, but what the agent said is right, you clip it to your saiga, you just manufactured an assault weapon. So now basically you have to reregister the saiga. I guess if your stationhouse bought saigas for department use, and declared them all legally into assault weapon category (however one DOES that), ONLY then could you do it. stupid shit isnt it? I had a feeling you would be back with an answer along those lines.

 

I believe most (not ALL) of the ideas behind these stupid laws is a good thing and all? but come ON already, its like trying to find a needle in a haystack when you need to see if you would break the law doing something. then on top of that, the guy gave you a fucking attitude when you had to call and ASK because not even a LAWYER could find the law??? pssh, you shoulda gotten his name, we coulda all started emailing him with stupid ass questions. Thats the kinda shit I am talking about right there guys. when you get your driver's license, you get a BOOK saying what is legal and whats not. how do we all know you can take a left on red out of a one way onto a one way? because when they wrote that traffic law, they also put it in the book they give you when you learn to drive. Dont hunters and fishermen get copies of the game laws when they REGISTER to fish or hunt for the year? wheres my fucking book that shoulda came with my first fucking gun I had to register to me? hmm? They shouldnt be allowed to make laws and then not make available copies of said laws to people who need to KNOW them. Anyone that has searched the ATF website for anything knows what im talking about. that just DOES NOT cut it, sorry. And then you call them up and they have the nerve to be assholes to you? pssh. what a legacy the hippes have left us. if hippies liked guns, there would be a book of laws that went with people's first guns i bet. yeh, lets legalise pot and get rid of guns. far out man. far out. I think america had a little too much peace and love goin on in the 60's or sumthin, cause the gun laws LOOK like someone stoned wrote em. they are all OVER the place, and make less sense than penal codes when you try to decypher them.

[loandr. 0]

while it would be nice....its just not worth the hassles , Until we see diff in 04 I for one will stay clear of em. Again just not worth the hassles. Just my .02

Loandr.

[ironmike82 0]

I aree loandr. I could go through my department and make them a letterhead purchase, and find an ffl to import them for me, and have them stamped and all that other stuff, but by the time I get through with all of that, hopefully the awb will be gone. Just too much of a pain in the ass for 3 extra rounds. Besides, I'm sure as this weapon gains popularity, a stateside manufacturer will build a compadible mag for it and then it won't be an importation violation.

[Bvamp 604]

ironmike: it still will be an assault weapon the second you clip that 8 rounder into your post ban shotgun...regardless of where it came from...

[NedPepper 0]

...and we certainly would not want to assault any bad guys with weapons.

[ironmike82 0]

That's a grey area, technically as soon as I put a high capacity mag. in my glock, I am carrying a controlled bost ban weapon. The fact that the mags are stamped for import and sale to L.E.O.s is what makes it okay. If the saiga mag. is a leagaly stamped L.E. and importeed to the dept., it is not an illeagaly manufactured weapon. But once again, who's got that kind of time? I'll just wait. Besides, I also carry a Colt flat top M4 law enforcement carbine in my car. That ought'a do it.

[kmoore 3]

I'm lost. Where did we see (officially) that detachable mags are limited to 5 rounds for a shotgun? And where did we see they cannot be imported? I haven't been able to connect these dots in this thread.

 

I try reading the reg's but it is enough to give me a headache. Having said that, I've never seen anyone point me there. To me, this means at best it's not obvious, and more likely it's someones interpretation. So maybe there's a precident someone could point me to? Is it because it begins to look like the dreaded "street sweeper"? I've heard some say they are afraid Saiga's with higher cap mags could later be deemed a destructive device? is that what we are all worried about?

 

To each his own, and jail time can't be fun so I understand the need to err on the side of caution. But if you took this logic to extremes, we'd all just turn in our firearms and give up. I've got some pretty careful friends that use them currently, and I trust their judgement. That, along with my inability to find a ruling/law/precedence makes me comfortable with them.

 

Me, I'm hoping they become more affordable/available on Sep 14th! Until someone shows me otherwise, they are not illegal to use/possess.

[grendelbane 0]

This is a comment separate from the imported Saiga mag subject.

 

I don't see any thing any where that suggests that I can not use a legal, pe-ban mag in a pistol made after '94. I don't own one, but if my P226, which I bought in 1989, lays down, I would have no qualms about purchasing a brand new P226, and using my old, still legal, 15 round magazines.

 

Now, about the Saiga mags. I don't see anything in the AWB which would apply to them. The trouble I do see is that Saiga's are imported as sporting guns. Therefore, 8 & 10 round mags might be viewed as "unsportiing". However, my home state permits deer hunting with shotguns, and does not restrict magazine capacity. Therefore, it looks like they may have a sporting use after all.

 

It might be necessary to "convert" the Saigas to domestic assembled status. If that is done, I see no problem whatsoever with importing 8 & 10 round Saiga mags. Those with a differing opinion please present evidence of where my position is wrong.

[SaltPeter 6]

What are you guys talking about? ironmike82, it took me about thirty minutes to locate a cheap Saiga 12C, complete with pistol grip and folding stock, on the web. I called the company that was selling them, set up the deal, went to my department, had the letter typed up and signed, mailed it to them with my check, and within a week I had my gun. It came with an 8 round mag and extra ones were $19.95. It was quite easy, actually.

[Bvamp 604]

true, a LEO purchase shouldnt be all that difficult for you. let someone else worry about the mag importing...

 

as for the 8 round deal with shotguns with clips? well, again, let me reiterrate my disgust in the way the laws have been written by anti-gun democrats. there is NO law stating that a removable semi-automatic shotgun clip cannot exceed 5 rounds to my knowledge, but they just go with the lines of shotgun and magazine capacity instead. personally, if there is ANY loophole from MY point of view, that would make the saiga a semi-auto weapon period. regardless of the type of round it takes. meaning it should be able to take 10 round+ mags like post ban rifles...

 

we all need to lobby our NRA and Republican representatives to make them make some kind of discernable set of gun laws if people want to force them on us, instead of having them try to undo the laws that you KNOW arent going to be undone anyway, no matter how much we all want or try. there is no excuse for this type of discrepancy, short of the hippes that made these laws trying to write them down as fast as possible when they had a window of opportunity to get them pushed through. people just have to take advantage of a situation to push thier bullshit on others...typical democratic thinking in my book. i still think the gun laws look like someone on acid wrote them, right after they saw the california bank shootout on tv and got all scared because they couldnt do anything about it...we should have just armed all the police better, not banned 1/2 the shit out there. the cops were NOT prepared to do thier job. so ban assault weapons. LOL what? make it a little HARDER to GET maybe. mandatory ID checking and recording when you purchase ammo? that makes more sense to me even. serial # the shells like the food industry has to do with thier products. but ban the shit? pssh. the only ones having the stuff will be the crooks in 100 years at that rate, with that type of thinking. pretty soon it will be legal to own assault weapons, but not legal to shoot them. i dont even want to THINK about that. which brings me to my next point:

 

just like the anti-smoking laws now where i live...i dont seem to recall any of us voting for them or not voting for them. they just appeared out of nowhere. and where these laws are put into place, its usually a democratic majority, and in the interest of the insurance companies, who usually are run by democrats ANYway. i cant be the only one noticing this trend.

 

BLAME THE HIPPIES AND THE DEMOCRATS THEY BECAME

 

p.s. you shoot it out with the cops and put rounds into MY house, im shooting back. and ill be in the right. the cops dont like you to know that little self defense law anyhow tho.

Edited March 7, 2004 by Bvamp

[JesusCow 1]

im scared. yet optimistic. hopefully mine will ship within a few weeks

 

SHHH

[LargePrime 0]

I belive the semi shotgun clip larger than 5 were banned in 68.

 

By Nixon the Republican

[Lagomorph 0]

I talked with a company who sells class 3 weapons and among other things 8rd magazines for the Saiga, and he said that he had at one point some saiga mags for sale, (with the saiga-12 K) but only to LEO and FFL holders. He said that they were difficult to import but not because of customs or BATF laws and also that he wouldn't have any problem transfering them to me and because I have an FFL. I asked if I could check back later and he said that would be fine because he might get some if the demand was there. So hopefully, hope, hope, I can get some. I also mentioned the 94' ban and if he would be selling the magazines to the regular civilian market after the expiration, he said probibly, if the demand was there. So cross your fingers everybody and hope for the best!

[ironmike82 0]

SaltPeter!!

What's up? Nice to speak to a brother behind the shield. I tried to find these things all over the place, and just ended up looking like a monkey f*cking a football. I got the run around from every dealer, and website that I found. Please shoot me an e-mail with the info on the seller that you went through and I will get my letterhead, and buy, not only the mags, but the whole L.E. saiga 12 as well.

 

Thanks

[SaltPeter 6]

ironmike,

This is where I got mine:

 

www.kalashnikov-usa.com

 

But watch out, I had some trouble with their customer service after I got my gun. Check out my post here:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=134

[ironmike82 0]

I tried to get on their web site but after I signed up, I never got my password in the mail. Do you have a contact number for them? I will contact them directly. Oh, and thanks for the heads up on the customer service.

[SaltPeter 6]

Here it is:

 

Holster USA LTD.

3198 S. HWY 1

Ft. Pierce, FL 34982

 

Tel: 800-784-5677

Fax: 772-465-8771

 

Holser USA and Kalashnikov USA are the same company.

[ironmike82 0]

They've changed thier contact info, but I found it!! I'll cintact them and let you know how it goes. Thanks bro!