7.62x39 vs 5.45x39?

[Ermac 8]

I've done some research, and am thinking about getting a 74, but I'm not sure which is better. If the 7.62x39 was better, I think I'd just buy another 7.62 AK in its place and get a 74 later. According to this picture, the M67 lead core has very early yaw performance like that of a 5.45x39. Many advocates of the 5.45x39 round completely ignore the earlier yawing M67 round and talk about the less lethal original M43 steel core loading, which has a tendency to leave the body before any yaw occured. Almost new production 7.62x39 today is of the M67 lead core type, so it's not fair to compare the 5.45x39 to the older M43 round. According to ammo oracle "early yawing lead core 7.62 x 39 mm FMJ bullets cause wounds very similar to the 5.45 x 39 mm Russian M74 53 gr FMJ bullets, however, the larger size of the 7.62 x 39 mm bullets results in a bigger permanent cavity compared to 5.45 x 39 mm bullets." How much bigger I wonder? Does the M67 type round have signficantly more lethality then the 5.45x39 rounds? Many Spetsnaz in Chechneya carry around AKM's. For the increased barrier penetration it has over the 5.45x39. Perhaps for increased lethality also. What's your take on it?

[BrutalGardener 205]

Commercial 124 gr 7.62x39 mm rounds are very deadly. Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HPs (featuring the 8M3 bullets) are proven performers. They tend to both yaw and fragment, causing horrific wounds. Golden Tiger 124 gr FMJ is like the M67s on steroids. The fact is: the best-designed 7.62x39 mm round will always have better terminal ballistics than the best-designed 5.45x39 mm round. Many Spetsnaz guys do prefer 7.62x39 mm. Lately, they've been getting rid of their old AKMS' and replacing them with AK-103s.

[XXasdf 29]

Get both if you can afford it, saigas are down to $300 range again so nows a great time to buy. I'm not sure if we have domestic manufactures for 5.45x39 ammo (except hornady) but there's plenty of companies that make 7.62x39. So ammo availability/choices might be a factor in your choice. No idea on the lethality of the bullet, never taken a deer with either caliber.

[Arik 565]

Bullets are very deadly! We can compare their damage on paper all we like and beat it to death on the forums but no bullet is guarantied a 1st shot stop 100% of the time. My friends dad fought in the balkans and took several M67 rounds to the chest. He now has numbness in one hand but he's still alive.

[my762buzz 141]

I've done some research, and am thinking about getting a 74, but I'm not sure which is better.

 

Your considering terminal performance so if this is the only factor your worried about stop considering FMJ and start thinking hollow points or plastic tip ammo.

FMJ military requirements was a bleeding heart cry to minimize damage. There is a reason that hunting regulations in many places require some kind of minimum size caliber and

NON-FMJ because by doing so it increases the ability to swiftly end the life of the animal and reduce needless suffering. Placing this in a similar context, most concealed carry instructors advise against FMJ in a carry pistol because it peforms worse than a hollow point of the same caliber and increases the likelyhood of overpenetration.

 

7.62x39 outperforms 5.45 in terminal ballistics when you compare well designed expanding/fragmenting bullets and softpoints are not exactly designed to do what you are really looking for.

Forget M67 and look into hornady, corbon, or mil classic hollowpoints when available.

I been through this which is more effective for years and came to this conclusion not from caliber wound profile charts but by shooting plenty of stuff and measuring the results.

I can't even begin to go over how disappointed I was with 5.56/.223 versus 7.62x39, but go and satisfy yourself.

 

 

By the way, http://www.texashuntingforum.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2020033/Re_8m3_Carnage

Edited September 29, 2011 by my762buzz

[Ermac 8]

Bullets are very deadly! We can compare their damage on paper all we like and beat it to death on the forums but no bullet is guarantied a 1st shot stop 100% of the time. My friends dad fought in the balkans and took several M67 rounds to the chest. He now has numbness in one hand but he's still alive.

True, there is no magical one shot drop round. I imagine there are people who have survived every caliber in use. As you said all bullets are deadly, but It's not a question of being able to kill, it's a question of how reliably can they kill. And it's a fact that some calibers will do it better then others. You wouldn't carry a .22 LR over a .45 acp.

[pony_express1973 183]

Bullets are very deadly! We can compare their damage on paper all we like and beat it to death on the forums but no bullet is guarantied a 1st shot stop 100% of the time. My friends dad fought in the balkans and took several M67 rounds to the chest. He now has numbness in one hand but he's still alive.

True, there is no magical one shot drop round. I imagine there are people who have survived every caliber in use. As you said all bullets are deadly, but It's not a question of being able to kill, it's a question of how reliably can they kill. And it's a fact that some calibers will do it better then others. You wouldn't carry a .22 LR over a .45 acp.

 

 

yOU CAN'T ASK HOW RELIABLE THEY CAN KILL THAT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTER... THEY ARE ONLY AS RELIABILE AS YOUR AIM..... BESIDES A 22 IS A HORRIBLE WEAPON TO GET SHOT WITH THE BULLET WILL NOT EXIT AND INSTEAD JUST BOUNCE AROUND INSIDE DOING TONS OF DAMAGE TO INTERNAL ORGANS

[Ermac 8]

I've done some research, and am thinking about getting a 74, but I'm not sure which is better.

 

Your considering terminal performance so if this is the only factor your worried about stop considering FMJ and start thinking hollow points or plastic tip ammo.

FMJ military requirements was a bleeding heart cry to minimize damage. There is a reason that hunting regulations in many places require some kind of minimum size caliber and

NON-FMJ because by doing so it increases the ability to swiftly end the life of the animal and reduce needless suffering. Placing this in a similar context, most concealed carry instructors advise against FMJ in a carry pistol because it peforms worse than a hollow point of the same caliber and increases the likelyhood of overpenetration.

 

7.62x39 outperforms 5.45 in terminal ballistics when you compare well designed expanding/fragmenting bullets and softpoints are not exactly designed to do what you are really looking for.

Forget M67 and look into hornady, corbon, or mil classic hollowpoints when available.

I been through this which is more effective for years and came to this conclusion not from caliber wound profile charts but by shooting plenty of stuff and measuring the results.

I can't even begin to go over how disappointed I was with 5.56/.223 versus 7.62x39, but go and satisfy yourself.

 

 

By the way, http://www.texashunt.../Re_8m3_Carnage

Agreed. 7.62x39 wins in hollow point/ soft point form. There are more much wider variety of choices in 7.62x39 hunting ammo. I might get some hollow point 7.62x39's to see how they perform against some clay I bought. I'm just more interested in knowing what's more lethal in FMJ form though.

[Ermac 8]

Bullets are very deadly! We can compare their damage on paper all we like and beat it to death on the forums but no bullet is guarantied a 1st shot stop 100% of the time. My friends dad fought in the balkans and took several M67 rounds to the chest. He now has numbness in one hand but he's still alive.

True, there is no magical one shot drop round. I imagine there are people who have survived every caliber in use. As you said all bullets are deadly, but It's not a question of being able to kill, it's a question of how reliably can they kill. And it's a fact that some calibers will do it better then others. You wouldn't carry a .22 LR over a .45 acp.

 

 

yOU CAN'T ASK HOW RELIABLE THEY CAN KILL THAT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTER... THEY ARE ONLY AS RELIABILE AS YOUR AIM..... BESIDES A 22 IS A HORRIBLE WEAPON TO GET SHOT WITH THE BULLET WILL NOT EXIT AND INSTEAD JUST BOUNCE AROUND INSIDE DOING TONS OF DAMAGE TO INTERNAL ORGANS

I doubt a .22 LR can reliably yaw in tissue.

[my762buzz 141]

The mil classic camo box 8m3 hp are the only cheap imported ones I tested that actually open up and react real well. Bear came second place. Wolf Black box really disappointed.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhyZ9ZoPJ90

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGB5YB9f15Q

Edited September 30, 2011 by my762buzz

[jimdigriz 580]

Commercial 124 gr 7.62x39 mm rounds are very deadly. Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HPs (featuring the 8M3 bullets) are proven performers. They tend to both yaw and fragment, causing horrific wounds.

 

All true, but I would never trust my life to Wolf's quality control (or that of any other commercial Russian ammo manufacturer). I would trust it to military-produced 7N6 though.

 

The Hornady rounds look interesting, but I'm not confident that they will perform well after going through soft body armor, which is a requirement for me.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Bullets are very deadly! We can compare their damage on paper all we like and beat it to death on the forums but no bullet is guarantied a 1st shot stop 100% of the time. My friends dad fought in the balkans and took several M67 rounds to the chest. He now has numbness in one hand but he's still alive.

True, there is no magical one shot drop round. I imagine there are people who have survived every caliber in use. As you said all bullets are deadly, but It's not a question of being able to kill, it's a question of how reliably can they kill. And it's a fact that some calibers will do it better then others. You wouldn't carry a .22 LR over a .45 acp.

 

 

yOU CAN'T ASK HOW RELIABLE THEY CAN KILL THAT DEPENDS ON THE SHOOTER... THEY ARE ONLY AS RELIABILE AS YOUR AIM..... BESIDES A 22 IS A HORRIBLE WEAPON TO GET SHOT WITH THE BULLET WILL NOT EXIT AND INSTEAD JUST BOUNCE AROUND INSIDE DOING TONS OF DAMAGE TO INTERNAL ORGANS

I doubt a .22 LR can reliably yaw in tissue.

 

i doubt it too, but it moves relativley slow and lacks a punch to go through a human body, and when it comes into contace with something like bone, it deflects or fragments causing a lot of damage for its tiny size and lack of speed. an example of the lethality would be the isrealis where using modified ruger 10-22's at will and had to put them on a list of lethal weapons cuz a lot of people were dying when they started using them against people.

 

 

but as for the thread, im going to go against the grain and go with the 5.45. mainly for better range, accuracy, lighter to carry, (in loaded mags) and flatter trajectory. i like how the bullets yaw almost immediatley when contact is made with flesh at all ranges. i know they have a 7.62 military round designed the same way, but we cant get any. and those that have some prolly wont sell.

 

i plan on picking up a 7.62 but my next time around it wont be a wasr-10

 

overall theres pros and cons to both calibers. it just depends on what you prefer.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Commercial 124 gr 7.62x39 mm rounds are very deadly. Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HPs (featuring the 8M3 bullets) are proven performers. They tend to both yaw and fragment, causing horrific wounds.

 

All true, but I would never trust my life to Wolf's quality control (or that of any other commercial Russian ammo manufacturer). I would trust it to military-produced 7N6 though.

 

The Hornady rounds look interesting, but I'm not confident that they will perform well after going through soft body armor, which is a requirement for me.

 

 

hornady may suprise you. i shot some steel plates with the 5.45 rounds they make and it suprisingly punched through cleanly and hit some watermelons on the other side going clean through about 70% of the time. but soft armor shouldnt be as hard on it as a steel plate. i may be wrong thogh.

 

but +1 on the 7n6.

[my762buzz 141]

The Hornady rounds look interesting, but I'm not confident that they will perform well after going through soft body armor, which is a requirement for me.

 

On page 41 of the Hornady Tap police testing report 6.8spc is tested against materials and then how it reacts with gel.

The weight is 110 gr and the velocity is between 2300 to 2400 fps which is fairly close to the weight and velocity of 7.62x39.

The testing is through a car door, firedoor, safety glass, and wall door.

The automotive safety glass is the biggest obstacle in the test. It still penetrates 9 inches of ballistic gel and creates a 4.5 inch max temporal cavity.

 

By comparison, Hornady 75 gr TAP which is declared the best .223 caliber incapacitator in the test results conclusions manages to penetrate

the same safety glass but only further penetrates 7.25 inches into the ballistic gel.

 

With that said, the same test on page 7 says that all of the Hornady .223 Tap rounds will defeat level III A armor with little effect on the performance.

Considering that the 6.8 does even better, I don't think that either 6.8 or 7.62x39 bullets with these same plastic tips are going to fail to peform well enough

through level III A and then into tissue. If I could get ahold of some III A cheap enough, I would be glad to get my video posted up of this event.

 

http://www.hornadyle..._tap_report.pdf

Edited September 30, 2011 by my762buzz

[jimdigriz 580]

Thanks for the info, 762buzz...the penetration on the two lower grain 223 projectiles is disappointing, so I won't be switching from 7N6 in my AK 74 to their 5.45 offering (which is probably comparable to the 223 60 grain). The Hornady would probably work fine in 7.62x39 though.

[rifleshooter474 2]

What I have noticed is my 7.62x39 rifle makes a larger hole in my paper targets then my 5.45x39 rifle.

[my762buzz 141]

All true, but I would never trust my life to Wolf's quality control (or that of any other commercial Russian ammo manufacturer).

 

I have not had any ammo problems with the mil classic I bought in the past, but I really want to see laquered cases, sealed primers, and sealed case necks.

 

I noticed that on the Golden Tiger Ammo website

http://www.goldentigerammo.com/

they show a 7.62x39 hollowpoint version which I have not ever seen before.

124 grains like the 8M3 and a massive air pocket like the 8m3. Is it 8m3? Not sure but I wish they would import that version.

They also show a 5.45x39 58 gr hollow point product.

Both examples are laquer coated and sealed.

 

[physicsnerd 139]

All true, but I would never trust my life to Wolf's quality control (or that of any other commercial Russian ammo manufacturer).

 

I have not had any ammo problems with the mil classic I bought in the past, but I really want to see laquered cases, sealed primers, and sealed case necks.

 

I noticed that on the Golden Tiger Ammo website

http://www.goldentigerammo.com/

they show a 7.62x39 hollowpoint version which I have not ever seen before.

124 grains like the 8M3 and a massive air pocket like the 8m3. Is it 8m3? Not sure but I wish they would import that version.

They also show a 5.45x39 58 gr hollow point product.

Both examples are laquer coated and sealed.

 

 

That is a neat graphic and I wish I could get my hands on that 9x18!

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Ammo for the x39 is going to be so much easier to locate.

I like the 5.45 for target work though, the mil-surp are cheap, for now.

For wet work, 30 cal always.

[thebuns1 4,323]

What I have noticed is my 7.62x39 rifle makes a larger hole in my paper targets then my 5.45x39 rifle.

 

 

duh?