7.62 AR vs Saiga for hunting deer

[auburn2 1]

My 10 YO son wants to get into deer hunting and I am looking for a mild round to get in a rifle for him. He can shoot my AR (.223) and my SKS but doesn't like anything more powerful.

 

I think that limits my choices, I have a lot of spare AR parts lying around (including a lower) so I was thinking about $500 could get us into a 7.62 AR, but I haven't heard a lot of good things about them. For a little more I could get a saiga and convert it (or not convert for less $$ but deal with the heinous trigger).

 

Which would be the better option? Which is more accurate in that caiber? I live in Alabama where the deer are relatively small and the shots are usually 100-200 yards.

 

I'm also thinking about a .357 lever action, M1 Carbine, or a 6.8 SPC AR.

Edited November 28, 2011 by auburn2

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Whats wrong with the SKS?

Plenty of SKSs doing duty as deer rifles, plenty of soft point ammo to choose from.

Down here around Mobile, they knock their tails in the mud quite well.

[auburn2 1]

SKS would work but it is a bit heavy for him. The scope options are rather limited too (not to mention I don't want to bubba up my SKS). The latter would apply for the M1 Carbine as well but not the others.

[hutchsaiga 93]

Personally. If it were me id be getting a 308 bolt gun. Savage arnt amazing but the prices are great and will serve you very well. Mossberg or something similar too. My nephew who's 10 has a 243winmag youth mossberg that he shoots very very well and is a More appriote cartridge for 200 yrd shots on deer.

[auburn2 1]

Personally. If it were me id be getting a 308 bolt gun. Savage arnt amazing but the prices are great and will serve you very well. Mossberg or something similar too. My nephew who's 10 has a 243winmag youth mossberg that he shoots very very well and is a More appriote cartridge for 200 yrd shots on deer.

Well if he was 16 I would go for a bolt gun (probably in 30-06 though). My son can't/won't shoot somemething that powerful now though, particularly in a light rifle where recoil is felt more. My M1 Garand and Remington 742 kick too much for his liking, a savage in a similar caliber would be way too much for him to handle. A .243 winchester might be an option, but is it any better than a 7.62x39? I have a .22 Win Mag Marlin bolt that he shoots regularly and well, but it is illegal (and inhumane?) for deer in Alabama.

 

My son is really good with the operation of firearms (blame video games), and I wouldn't worry about him having/handling a semi-auto, and he has shot them a bunch but he is not good with the recoil of a high power rifle.

Edited November 28, 2011 by auburn2

[TacticalGenius 4]

I've got an AR in 7.62x39 and in 6.8, as well as a 7.62x39 Saiga. The x39 AR has a touch rougher recoil than the Saiga, by that I mean the Saiga has a smoother absorption of the recoil than the AR does. But as far as accuracy goes, I can shoot sub-MOA with my x39 AR and the Hornady SST rounds. I use the AR-stoner 5 rounders and they are flawless, kind of a pain to actually load 5 rounds, but flawless anyhow. And I have used the ASC 30 rounders and done a few mag dumps with one fail to extract.

 

I took my AR out hunting for Maine deer this year and got stumped, but for 125yds and less (which is all I will get for a shot here), I am confident in the round and rifle for our large deer up here. Plus the AR is pretty light compared to my Saiga.

 

If you do the x39 AR, I would suggest an H3 buffer to help with recoil, (that is what I have and it is nice), also get the XP hammer spring. I have an AR Performance SOCOM profile barrel on an Aero Precision upper. Love the rifle. Here is a link to it, (bottom of page for pics) http://68forums.com/...39-barrel-rocks!

I would go with the ARP setup since you get a firing pin, bolt, cam pin and barrel for a great price ($265). Plus, by going with the x39, you don't have to invest in a new caliber, just shoot what you already have. (I would avoid milsurp with this setup though, a pain to clean thoroughly)

 

The 6.8 is a great round too, but if you are in close, I would stay with the x39. Plus the 6.8 is noticeably heavier on the recoil. Keep us posted on what you decide.

 

TG

Edited November 28, 2011 by TacticalGenius

[hutchsaiga 93]

Tactical were abouts in Maine? I live in southern maine

Edited November 29, 2011 by hutchsaiga

[TacticalGenius 4]

Tactical were abouts in Maine? I live in southern maine

 

I live in the Bangor area.

[hutchsaiga 93]

Awesome. Hopefully we will be one of the few states with constitutional carry soon! It got close this year. But unfortunately we will have to wait till next. It would be nice to join az,al, and vt as true free states!!

[iarneau 44]

If cost is an issue I would go with a Saiga, in the range that x39 is effective, sub-moa vs 2-3 moa is not going make much of a difference when you're shooting at deer. JGsales has Saigas in x39 for 299, an AR in that caliber is going to be at least 4 times that. And he's going to grow and be able to shoot heavier loads soon, then you're out less money if you go with a Saiga.

Edited December 1, 2011 by iarneau

[imarangemaster 315]

The Saiga is like Russian Mini-30, but much more accurate. My 7.62x39 Saiga will do sub-2 MOA all day. In original form, the 16" saiga is a great 200 yard and under rifle, though I would use mine to 250 with good ammo. If you get a quality side mount optic mount, and use a 4X scope, 200 yards would be a cinch. I am also a fan of Marlin 30-30s with Hornady's plastic spire point "Leverution" ammo. Easily a 200 yard weapon.

[Frankyoz 15]

I would go Saiga even though you have the lower already it will still cost you more money to set up the AR platform and as you know all black rifles drain money as it is after they are intial set up as well lol. Saiga is simple leave it as a sporter or convert it and still come in under the AR and have mag choices a plenty just my .02

[anthony1 5]

Id probably get a 243 bolt versatile mild recoil caliber even on a lightweight hunting rig . You could always just use the AR as well, just use proper bullet selection.

[de9mm 0]

I just had to chime in on this one. Check your hunting laws. Most states require something bigger than .223 for deer. 7.62x39 is also hardly a deer cartridge. In a lot of states, there's a limit on how many rounds the rifle can hold. They're too light for a humane, one shot kill. I'll echo the best advice posted so far. Get a bolt action in a caliber suitable for hunting deer. 30.06, .308, .270, etc. I have a Weatherby Vanguard in 30.06 that'll easily print 1 MOA groups from a cold barrel. You can find them in the $400 price range and they're about the best value for quality vs. price around. .308 would have a bit less recoil and the ammo is cheaper. It's a good choice for deer. An alternative for a younger hunter might be a lever action 30-30, which has quite a bit less recoil than .308 and is a popular choice for deer in brushy areas at ranges up to around 100 yards. If you expect to be taking shots at 200 yards, though, get a real rifle. Keep in mind your target, usually the heart, is about 4 inches across. If you don't have a rifle that will print 4 inch groups or less at the range you expect to be shooting, you don't belong in the woods. I'm not trying to be unkind, but too many inexperienced hunters end up wounding deer by either using the wrong equipment, or for lack of marksmanship skills. That's just plain bad sportsmanship. If you can't do it with one shot, don't do it.

 

The bottom line is black, scary looking, semi autos are plinking guns. You can kill coffee cans with them all day long at 50 yards, but they're about the worst choice you could possibly make for deer hunting.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

First off I curse Mr. Stoners name almost daily so I wont comment on the AR.

 

If a 30-30 is acceptable for deer then the 39R is also, ballistics of the rounds are very close.

 

If you are hunting deer with a 39R get a good American PSP round, I like Remington myself.

 

As for the SKS you can lighten it considerably by replacing that wood with a polymer stock, think ATI makes one. I assume you have checked that SKS for trigger creep.

 

I have picked up a couple of Marlins in 308, a XL7 and a XS7, both turned out to be good shooters right out of the box. Excellent rifle and round for taking down anything you are going to run across.

Surprisingly of late 30-06 ammo is getting expensive and a bit harder to find, lot of guys have gone to the 308 or 270.

[imarangemaster 315]

De9mm,

 

I respectfully disagree. The 7.62x39 is a great deer cartridge, for 200 yards and less. It is ballistically superior to a 30-30, which has harvested more deer in the last century than probably any other single cartridge. With good bullets (Hornady V-Max, 8M3, Brown Bear SPs), it is incredibly devastating. Read the thread about Wolf MC and look at the pictures of the hog. As for too light a bullet, I killed my last deer at 100 yards with a single heart/lung shot from a 110 grain JSP M1 carbine. I could almost stick my fist in the exit wound. As far as "Killing power", under 200 yards, .308s, et al, expend most of their energy out the other side (personal experience here) They shine because they can do at 400 what an AK can do at 200. That's why 30-30s remain so popular. In the south LOTS of folks use SKS and AK platform for deer. As far as black guns good for plinking only, between 50 and 100 million Kalashnikovs and 20 Million or so AR15 platforms are arming the world. I have personally seen what little black rifles do to the human body, and game.

 

Is is the right weapon for 300 yard hunting, no. My Saiga, however, will shoot 1.5 MOA with good ammo, though, so 200 is no problem

[Battosaii 99]

have you ever considered 5.45x39? it has light recoil like .223 but is much more deadly. it will also be pretty accurate out to 600 yards and is cheap to shoot when your just target practicing.

 

Adam Arms makes a good 5.45 upper and the rounds fit in standard .223 ar mags but require the follower to be changed to be reliable.

 

or for a lot less a Saiga 5.45

[de9mm 0]

imarangemaster,

 

RE: "The 7.62x39 is a great deer cartridge, for 200 yards and less. It is ballistically superior to a 30-30"

 

Opinions vary, but numbers don't lie. A 30-30 with a 150 gr. bullet will give you 1900 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle at 2400 fps. A 7.62x39 with a 125 gr. bullet will give you 1400 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle at 2300 fps. Zeroed at 100 yards, the 7.62x39 will drop 8 inches at 200 yards and has 700 ft. lbs. of energy vs. the 30-30's 7 inch drop and 900 ft. lbs. of energy. There's no question a 30-30 is ballistically superior to the 7.62x39.

 

Also, the "killing power" of high powered deer rifles comes from hydrostatic shock, which you don't get from 700 ft. lbs. of energy. There's no question 700 ft. lbs. will kill, but it is not efficient. When the military was testing on the switch from 30 caliber NATO rounds to 5.56 they found it takes 3-4 hits to the body to equal the stopping power of a .308/30.06. That's why real assault rifles are select fire with options for 3 round bursts or full auto. Like Lay's potato chips, one isn't enough.

 

An inexpensive, production bolt action rifle suitable for hunting deer should be good for around 1.5 MOA accuracy. An inexpensive 7.62x39 semi auto is usually no better than 3-4 MOA. The bolt action should shoot 3 inch groups at 200 yards vs. 6-8 inches for the semi auto. I would be very surprised if a $325 Saiga with a 16 inch barrel shoots 1.5 MOA except as blind manufacturing luck, or simply as blind luck. You'd be amazed at the claims I see on gun message boards about what some guns can do. One of my favorites was a guy who claimed 6 inch groups at 300 yards using a .38 special with a 2" barrel. Gotta love the Internet!

Edited December 4, 2011 by de9mm

[Nailbomb 10,221]

imarangemaster,

 

RE: "The 7.62x39 is a great deer cartridge, for 200 yards and less. It is ballistically superior to a 30-30"

 

Opinions vary, but numbers don't lie. A 30-30 with a 150 gr. bullet will give you 1900 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle at 2400 fps. A 7.62x39 with a 125 gr. bullet will give you 1400 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle at 2300 fps. Zeroed at 100 yards, the 7.62x39 will drop 8 inches at 200 yards and has 700 ft. lbs. of energy vs. the 30-30's 7 inch drop and 900 ft. lbs. of energy. There's no question a 30-30 is ballistically superior to the 7.62x39.

And your information is off what ammo?

 

Hornady 7.62x39 is rated at 1508FPS at the muzzle with a 123 grain projectile and at 2350ft/lb according to manufacturer specs. Now admitedly this is out of a 20 inch barrel, but I doubt much if any gain from 7.62x39 getting a additional 4 inches.

 

Comparable hornady 30-30 ammo is rated at 1902FPS at the muzzle with a 150 grain projectile and 2390ft/lb out of a 24 inch barrel.

 

While this does not make the 7.62x39 the heavy hitter at the muzzle at the 100 yard mark the advertised numbers change.

 

7.62x39 is rated at 2040ft/lb and 1136FPS at 100 yards according to the hornady website.

 

30-30 is rated at 1959ft/lb and 1278FPS at the 100 yard mark again according to the hornady website.

 

Furthermore advertised trajectory for each is listed as follows.

 

7.62x39

-1.5" at the muzzle +3.50" at 100 yards 0 at 200 yards and -14.8" at 300

30-30

-1.5" at the muzzle 0 at 100 yards, -7.7" at 200 yards, and -29.6" at 300

 

This would make the 7.62 a flatter shooting bullet, and with higher energy past 100 yards according to manufacurers specs.

 

By the way, with a recrowned barrel, a quality conversion and a 2 stage trigger I have gotten 2 1/4" groups with iron sights at 100 yards. This is not uncommon from a quality built saiga, or a legion SGL.(I was using golden tiger FMJ)

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If you strip the SKS of any military accesories and put it in a synthetic stock I believe your son would do fine with the weight.

[de9mm 0]

plague,

 

You have your numbers all mixed up. You have foot pounds swapped with feet per second among other things. You're also using trajectory data with the gun zeroed at 200 yards vs. 100 yards. It makes a difference. Also, Hornady isn't the best pick for apples to apples comparisons. They offer hotter rounds in some things but not others. Nothing against Hornady, but when comparing factory loads, a bare bones Federal or Remington budget offering will give you a better side by side comparison. Hornady's site has a pretty cool ballistics calculator, which is a handy bookmark to save, expecially if you do any reloading or want to play around with finding an optimum point blank range for your zero. While 100 yards is where most folks sight in their guns, you'll usually get a better place to set your zero somewhere between 200 and 300 yards. "Point blank range" being the distance where holding high or low is minimal. The problem is most ranges are 100 yards and it's not always easy to find places to safely practice at longer distances. A ballistics calculator will give you a good idea about where to hold high at 100 yards to get your zero set for longer distances. For example, if the data shows you have to hold one inch low at 100 yards with zero at 250, sight in your rifle 1 inch high at 100 yards and your zero should be pretty close to dead on at 250. The reason for finding your best zero is inside a certain range, the bullet should go real close to your point of aim, without a lot of fooling around adjusting for elevation.

 

Brady Campaign hype to the contrary, those evil looking semi auto "assault rifles" are decidedly anemic compared to any good deer or elk rifle. For example, the tried and true 30.06 has right around 3200 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and some loads in .338 Win Mag will get you up around 4400 ft. lbs. In dangerous game cartridges, the Weatherby .460 Mag come out the end of the barrel at around 7500 foot pounds of energy. The AR will get you 1200-1300 ft. lbs. and the AK 1400-1500. Bud's Gun Shop is a good site to graze ammo numbers as they give foot pounds and velocity on everything they offer. There are cheaper places to buy but that's the best place to look.

 

Hope that helps clear up any confusion. The bottom line is 30-30 is a good 25%-30% more powerful than 7.62x39.

[imarangemaster 315]

De9mm, hundreds of thousand of dead killed by AKs must have missed your posting. So must have all of the deer, hog and coyote harvested every year by 7.62x39. If a person wants a reach out touch some rifle to hunt get it. If he wants the most reliable battle rifle every made, that can kill deer and hogs 200 yards or less in a pinch, get an AK. BTW, a 30-30 drops like a stone compared to a boat tailed 7.62x39. I carried weapons for a living 5 years military and 20+ years law enforcement. I'm more worried about two legged goblins than if a deer feels 100 ft pounds of impact at 100, or 100 more at 200.

 

Are you just a troll from a black rifle hating hunting forum?

[TacticalGenius 4]

De9mm,

 

Before I address some of your criticisms of certain platforms and calibers...The OP isn't looking for a bolt gun, as he clearly stated since his son is recoil sensitive. Hence the reason for the post, either an AR upper, an AK, M1 carbine or .357 lever action.

 

With that said, the 7.62x39 is an adequate round to the ranges the OP is looking at, especially when you consider that the deer in Alabama (and most of the south) are much smaller than their northern counterparts. Check out these links to a guy that hunts deer with an AK74 in Georgia and seems to do just fine with it. http://68forums.com/forums/showthread.php?24159-Hunting-with-an-AK-74&highlight=poodle

So, if he can take southern deer with a 5.45x39, then the OPs son can take a southern deer with a 7.62x39. Also, if you Google, "7.62x39 hunting/deer" you will find plenty of game that have fallen to this round in the ranges posted by the OP. If people can hunt with a .44 magnum or .357 and take deer, I think the 7.62x39 is plenty capable...

 

Secondly, no one is discrediting your statement that the 30-30 is a great deer round. And for the ranges the OP is looking at, it is fine. It may be a stretch to the 200 yd shot, but fine for anything in closer. You're arguing that the 30-30 is superior to the 7.62x39 is correct, to a point. Once you go past about 100yds, the round dies off considerably whereas the 7.62x39 doesn't die off nearly as much or as fast. The statements are that the 7.62x39 is ballistically similar to the 30-30, (not equal to or the same as). You are arguing semantics concerning 200 fps here and 150 fpe there. They are similar, plain and simple, not equal and no one is saying they are.

 

Your statement about black guns being nothing more than plinkers is flat stupid and ignorant. Google "AR and hunting" and you will see how "incapable" these rifles are with many of the same rounds that bolt guns do use (.223, .204, .243, 308, .260 Rem, etc). Of course, there are several adaptations to other rounds (6.8 from the .277, 7.62x40 WT and 300 AAC from the .308 etc). Now, many of these rounds are going to be less able to be utilized at great distance like a .308 etc., but within the range the OP posted, these rounds would be capable of taking small deer in the south. What's more, regardless of the round, you need to hunt within the limits of the round, and not try to stretch the rounds limits/capabilities. With that said, the 7.62x39 is more than enough at ranges the OP is looking to hunt, especially with the rounds available (PSP, SST, HP, Bear ammo SP etc).

 

TG

[CPF 80]

People, people...we are arguing with a person whose only posts are in this topic...We all know what type of person this is. This is that hunter that you run into at the range or in the woods who thinks that the only way to hunt is THEIR way of hunting. They generally think that guns made SPECIFICALLY for hunting are the only way to go for hunting, and they spit on us for using our "black" guns to hunt. Typically they only endorse bolt action rifles, too, for some reason...

 

I generally get into arguments with these people because they just piss me off in general, but this guy's not worth it.

 

Fact of the matter is, if 7.62x39 wasn't capable of killing deer then it also wouldn't have one of the largest kill count of any round type in the world today. 7.62x39's are used to drop deer every single day, you don't even need statistics to know that.

Edited December 5, 2011 by CPF

[de9mm 0]

There seem to be some pretty rude responses from people who won't take 5 minutes to objectively consider whether or not their opinions are informed. You can just about tell when someone has run out of credible arguments at the point they resort to name calling. Here's Hornady's Ballistic Calculator:

 

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

 

Take 5 minutes to punch in the numbers yourselves. If any of you are real men, you will then take another 5 minutes to apologize for your rude conduct while admitting you're wrong.

 

If you can't handle the recoil, get out of the woods. Don't take your 5 year old on an African safari with a .22 LR because an elephant gun kicks too hard for the little fellow.

[TacticalGenius 4]

"There seem to be some pretty rude responses from people who won't take 5 minutes to objectively consider whether or not their opinions are informed."

 

Said the pot to the kettle... Numbers and data go a long way, no doubt. But, so does a bunch of dead animals that have fallen to these "inferior" rifles and bullets...

 

"If you can't handle the recoil, get out of the woods. Don't take your 5 year old on an African safari with a .22 LR because an elephant gun kicks too hard for the little fellow."

 

Umm...really? The kid enjoys a sport that we all love, why take him away from it because he doesn't want to be the primary recoil mechanism? (This is the reason I hunt with the dreaded AR platform) If the kid wants to hunt with something that has soft recoil and enough takedown power for deer within his, the rifle and the rounds capabilites, then let him do it. He isn't your kid, so quit the holier than thou attitude and actually facilitate helping the OP to make an educated decision. If you can't have the decency to help him out (which is why these forums exist) then don't post, troll elsewhere.

 

TG

[Nailbomb 10,221]

plague,

 

You have your numbers all mixed up. You have foot pounds swapped with feet per second among other things. You're also using trajectory data with the gun zeroed at 200 yards vs. 100 yards. It makes a difference. Also, Hornady isn't the best pick for apples to apples comparisons. They offer hotter rounds in some things but not others. Nothing against Hornady, but when comparing factory loads, a bare bones Federal or Remington budget offering will give you a better side by side comparison.

Your right! I did mix up the LB/ft and FPS! My bad.

 

As far as them not being good side by side comparisons, I disagree. Budget offerings are far from a good comparison when gauging hunting round as your average end user will not be using massive amounts of ammo for hunting. its perfectly reasonable to expect someone to get some "hot" ammo for getting animals with. I know I do.

 

As far as where the gun is zeroed both guns start at the muzzle at a comparable placement, and end drastically different. I believe that's a fair comparison. the simple fact is that a 7.62x39 IS a flatter shooting round in a apples to apples comparison to 30-30, and is perfectly acceptable for taking game under 200 yards.

 

No one is claiming tac driver status on a 7.62x39. We are claiming its a great brush gun, with respectable stopping power under 200 yards.

 

My backyard is dense woodland and swamp. the best shot you are going to get is probably a pop-up shot under 50 yards. In conditions like this a long barrel bolt gun, with a optic isn't really the best choice.

[de9mm 0]

RE: "why take him away from it because he doesn't want to be the primary recoil mechanism"

 

Because he'll end up leaving wounded deer in the woods to die a slow death and go to waste. That's stupid and irresponsible. Teach him guns. Enroll him in classes. Let him practice under good adult supervision how to handle weapons suitable for his size and age. Take him on hunts for varmints and small game so he can learn as he goes. Then, when he's big enough and old enough, he'll know enough about marksmanship, sportsmanship and hunting to handle a rifle specifically designed for deer. By that time he'll have the skill to make humane one shot kills and not be the kind of person who gives hunters and gun owners a bad name.

 

And yes, this will be my last post here. I have better things to do than play with jerks, fools and ignorant poseurs. As I own a Saiga 12, I thought this might be a fun site, but there are way too many lowlifes here for my taste.

 

Bye.

 

PS On the zero post. You're comparing data for the 30-30 zeroed at 100 yards and the 7.62x39 zeroed at 200. It's NOT the same. You have to use the same zero to get comparable data. Pull up the ballistic calculator I posted upthread and punch in the numbers. You can fine tune the numbers I posted earlier if you want to get extra precise by using a BC of .19 and "round nose" for the 30-30 and a BC of .25 and "spire point" for the 7.62. Up to 300 yards the 30-30 shoots flatter and hits harder. After that, the slightly higher BC of the 7.62 makes them close to dead even past that point. Neither of them are good choices for targets at much over 100 yards.

Edited December 5, 2011 by de9mm

[Nailbomb 10,221]

If you can't handle the recoil, get out of the woods. Don't take your 5 year old on an African safari with a .22 LR because an elephant gun kicks too hard for the little fellow.

African safari? 5 year old? .22 LR?

 

Stop it.

 

We should be getting youngsters started as early as possible in hunting. I love the feel of recoil, but its not for everyone, and I don't have to narrow a approach to think that everyone loves it as much as me. There is a reason so many people want to be able to shoot bulk packs in their S-12s on this forum and its not for hunting or clays usually.

 

If that were not the case .50 bmg would be more popular. Now there is a flat shooting round with plenty of energy. Wonder why more people don't use that for deer hunting...

[Nailbomb 10,221]

a rifle specifically designed for deer.

 

We've just been trolled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoPmH3gGkaU