Feeding Problems

[Hammer1960 0]

I am experiencing feeding problems on my S12. The shells stick in the chamber or as pictured. I have tried several magazines and shells and it does it periodically (one out of 10 shells). It happens on initial loading and when shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Needs extractor slot work. Take the sharp edge off where the hull is getting hung, but don't go crazy.

 

 

Click on the pic and note the red marking. This is where you need to remove A LITTLE metal. Go slow.

 

Edited August 27, 2012 by evlblkwpnz

[Lead Poison 2]

Needs extractor slot work. Take the sharp edge off where the hull is getting hung, but don't go crazy.

 

 

Click on the pic and note the red marking. This is where you need to remove A LITTLE metal. Go slow.

 

 

Thats great advice. How do you know how much is to much? I have FTF's as well but not crazy FTF's. Can certain shells cause FTF's?

[Hammer1960 0]

What should I use to remove the material. It is sticking on the rim inside the chamber (I may not be using the correct terminology). I tried sandpaper but it really hard to get inside the chamber with enough force to do any good. Thanks

[kdoske 1]

Skinny long round file should do it I would think.

[Hammer1960 0]

I took off a small amount of material and now this is what happens on at least 1 out of 10 shells. It really jams in the chamber, I sometimes have to take a mallet to the charging handle to extract shell. I have tried 3 different mags and it does the same with all. It does not matter whether I am loading or shooting, same malfunction. I have used a micrometer to measure the shells and the small variance in size does not seem to matter. I don't know what else I can try, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

[Nephilim7 107]

Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

Ummm... What was that name...?

 

Tromix??? Yeah. I think Tromix might work on Saigas...

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Post a pic of where you removed material. I hope you didn't go crazy removing material. We need pics to tell.

[Hammer1960 0]

Post a pic of where you removed material. I hope you didn't go crazy removing material. We need pics to tell.

I took a file and smoothed out the area shown on the red mark in RAW's post above. I did not remove much material at all. The shells are not longer jamming at an angle but one or two out of ten are still sticking in the chamber.

 

Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

Ummm... What was that name...?

 

Tromix??? Yeah. I think Tromix might work on Saigas...

Thanks, I should have said in the OKC area, hard to get any better than Tromix but I'm guessing turnaround will be months instead of weeks.

[Lead Poison 2]

Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

Ummm... What was that name...?

 

Tromix??? Yeah. I think Tromix might work on Saigas...

 

Yeah and he'll get his gun worked on sometime in 2017. Better off sending it to the moon....

[lbsrdi 1,078]

You should post a pic of the area 'smoothed"

[JoeAK 337]

I took off a small amount of material and now this is what happens on at least 1 out of 10 shells. It really jams in the chamber, I sometimes have to take a mallet to the charging handle to extract shell. I have tried 3 different mags and it does the same with all. It does not matter whether I am loading or shooting, same malfunction. I have used a micrometer to measure the shells and the small variance in size does not seem to matter. I don't know what else I can try, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

I think I know this problem, I had it too, and tried to "fix" the wrong area. (good thing I didn't go nuts with the "fixing")

 

I think this is an extractor spring that's too strong, if it is, you need to check the extractor cutout in the bolt head for debris, if that's not it, you can file the spring a little shorter, OR you can shoot it or somehow flex it more, mine weakened itself with time and doesn't jam like that anymore.

 

I could be wrong, so you should wait for someone to confirm that before you do anything.

Edited September 12, 2012 by JoeAK

[Hammer1960 0]

The picture shows the areas that were smoothed with a file. I did not remove much material I only took off the sharp edge.

 

I took off a small amount of material and now this is what happens on at least 1 out of 10 shells. It really jams in the chamber, I sometimes have to take a mallet to the charging handle to extract shell. I have tried 3 different mags and it does the same with all. It does not matter whether I am loading or shooting, same malfunction. I have used a micrometer to measure the shells and the small variance in size does not seem to matter. I don't know what else I can try, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

I think I know this problem, I had it too, and tried to "fix" the wrong area. (good thing I didn't go nuts with the "fixing")

 

I think this is an extractor spring that's too strong, if it is, you need to check the extractor cutout in the bolt head for debris, if that's not it, you can file the spring a little shorter, OR you can shoot it or somehow flex it more, mine weakened itself with time and doesn't jam like that anymore.

 

I could be wrong, so you should wait for someone to confirm that before you do anything.

Thanks, this is a good suggestion, does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

[Nephilim7 107]

_{I don't think that is the area that was suggested to be filed. Look at Evl's pic again. It is the slot the extractor hook ("claw") slides into. Am I correct on this?}

 

 

_{It looks to me as though you are filing on the edge of your chamber. I would be VERY careful about doing that. It is my understanding that if this is done much at all it can lead to pressure failures on firing.}

 

 

 

 

_{***BOOM!!!***}

Edited September 17, 2012 by Nephilim7

[lbsrdi 1,078]

So the brass of the shell is getting caught on the area the arrows point to? Does it do this with different types of ammo?

Evlblk is talking about the extractor slot. I have done this mod with good results. It took me 20 seconds with a small round file. Word is you can do more harm than good if done wrong. I very lightly filed to remove the sharp edge in the slot you can feel with your pinky finger. Once it was no longer sharp I quit filing and had good results with this mod.

Do not do this mod based on anything I said, I am just reporting what I did.

[Hammer1960 0]

So the brass of the shell is getting caught on the area the arrows point to? Does it do this with different types of ammo?

Evlblk is talking about the extractor slot. I have done this mod with good results. It took me 20 seconds with a small round file. Word is you can do more harm than good if done wrong. I very lightly filed to remove the sharp edge in the slot you can feel with your pinky finger. Once it was no longer sharp I quit filing and had good results with this mod.

Do not do this mod based on anything I said, I am just reporting what I did.

The picture I posted on 27 August 2012 shows the problems I was having to begin with. The red arrows show the area I filed, I did not remove much material only enough to smooth the sharp edge. On 12 September 2012, I posted a picture of the jams I am now getting. I made a little progress at least one round per mag is jamming. It happens with all types of ammo. My extractor does eat up the brass on all of the shells, JoeAK had a good suggestion, may look at the extractor. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[lbsrdi 1,078]

What I was thinking was that in the pic from Sep12 it looks like the brass could have been getting caught on the area you later showed with the red arrows. I was asking if that is what you thought was happening.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

If it isn't too much trouble, I'd like to see a pic of the feedramp diagonally from above with the cover off and carrier completely out of the weapon.

[redhooker 2]

I have the same EXACT problem as this gun. My shells hang up as shown in the original post. I started a thread yesterday and recieved the same smoothing advice, but I believe the shell is hanging on that inner ring, albiet right where the slot is. I am probly wrong but it sems like the notch allows the shell edge to catch the rim easier right there. My rim has the same wear mark right where the notch is as is shown in the most recent pic with the 3 arrows. I have not done any smoothing yet as I don't want to fugg this gun up yet.

 

I have been unable to find anybody in my area (NE FL) that can do anything beyond part swaps on these shotguns. Evlblk-who do you use?

[Paulyski 2,227]

I am experiencing feeding problems on my S12. The shells stick in the chamber or as pictured. I have tried several magazines and shells and it does it periodically (one out of 10 shells). It happens on initial loading and when shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What type of mags?

The FTFs generally stem from a slow feed on mags.

The bolt's feed foot makes contact too high on the rear of the shell & kicks the nose of the shell up early, then the bolt is trying to jam it in there after it's bounced & dragged around till kingdom-come, and the inertia of the carrier / power of the recoil spring just runs out and it stalls.

 

I tune ALL my US made stick mags. Just as a precaution.

 

With the AGP, I take them apart and sand the inside channels on the sides where the follower rides with 200 grit where you'll see plastic disruptions from where the pins in the injection molding tool push the parts out. That's what you're hitting.

Then I screw the halves back together snugging the screws, then backing them off 1/3 rotation so they're not tight & won't collapse the mag.

Then I grasp the ends of the spring & stretch to add about 8"

 

With Surefires, I disassemble the mag, insert a standard 3/8" drive 5/8" spark plug socket in the top of the mouth like a shell would be sitting in it, then dip the top in boiling water for about the count of 10, then I let the mag cool with the socket inside until it's cool to the touch.

I do this to slightly widen the inside so there can be no drag on the shells whatsoever which could cause resistance as they feed.

I also grasp at the ends & lengthen the surefire mag's spring about 8"

 

On Personal guns, I found the tuned Surefire in the 8 round configuration to be extremely reliable and before acquiring Russian 8's, this was my preferred US made HD mag, with the strength to lift the heavy 3" magnum .00 buck quick enough to feed extremely reliably.

I really like the Surefire's Feed Lips, as they're always the perfect length to keep the nose of the shell down as it's supposed to be until fed.

 

 

Of course as with everything related to guns, YMMV.

Good luck.

 

ETA;

You should really fix your mag catch pin. It's half backed out in your picture. It's likely going to fall out next time you go shooting & you're going to have a hell of a time finding the pin & spring.;

 

[Nephilim7 107]

...Evlblk-who do you use?

 

Yeah, Evl, I want to hire the guy that works on your guns!!! LOL

 

 

He does all his own work and loves to encourage others to do the same. He requested a pic in his last post. Post a few. If you ask really nicely, I bet he and several other experienced guys on the forum would try to help figure it out...

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

...Evlblk-who do you use?

 

Yeah, Evl, I want to hire the guy that works on your guns!!! LOL

 

 

He does all his own work and loves to encourage others to do the same. He requested a pic in his last post. Post a few. If you ask really nicely, I bet he and several other experienced guys on the forum would try to help figure it out...

Get that asshat out of the Oval Office and people can hire me after I work out the legal details and a business membership here. I have a growing waiting list and really hope things work out. Get out and vote, people!

 

Honestly, it is really difficult to diagnose some of this stuff from afar and feel confident that I am leading the person in the right direction. I will try to post some pics later of the exact views that I would like to see, as an effort to keep the OP from wasting a bunch of time. I don't know it all, by far, but will try my best to help.

 

OP,

I am going to IM you tonight to ask a few questions about the ammo and your weapon.

[OBITUARY 12]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dinzagarms.com%2Fdownloads%2Fpolishing_saiga-12.pdf&ei=GNFZUJCoLomx0AHKoYG4DA&usg=AFQjCNHYWywn0MQMHhgV2ggKSfffqRdxbQ

 

I had the same problem with certain shells . I did the prior posted linked above and it resolved the issue . If you do it make certain you follow the directions.You need some steady hands . I am pretty certain that should fix it . Hopefully you didn't remove too much from the top .

Edited September 19, 2012 by OBITUARY

[OBITUARY 12]

On your pic it does look like there is a raised / bump spot between the middle arrow and the one to the right smooth/blend that bump down/out

Edited September 19, 2012 by OBITUARY

[Goose 95]

I took off a small amount of material and now this is what happens on at least 1 out of 10 shells. It really jams in the chamber, I sometimes have to take a mallet to the charging handle to extract shell. I have tried 3 different mags and it does the same with all. It does not matter whether I am loading or shooting, same malfunction. I have used a micrometer to measure the shells and the small variance in size does not seem to matter. I don't know what else I can try, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

Make sure you didn't leave any burrs pointing inward from smoothing off that edge. Are there any deep scratches going the length of the hull after you hammer it out?

[msrdiver 42]

Pauly,

 

I think the second video in the list explains more clearly what you were trying to write. Focus folks, foooocus!

http://www.agparms.com/pages/Media.html

[OBITUARY 12]

http://www.dinzagarms.com/downloads/polishing_saiga-12.pdf

[Hammer1960 0]

I am experiencing feeding problems on my S12. The shells stick in the chamber or as pictured. I have tried several magazines and shells and it does it periodically (one out of 10 shells). It happens on initial loading and when shooting. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What type of mags?

The FTFs generally stem from a slow feed on mags.

The bolt's feed foot makes contact too high on the rear of the shell & kicks the nose of the shell up early, then the bolt is trying to jam it in there after it's bounced & dragged around till kingdom-come, and the inertia of the carrier / power of the recoil spring just runs out and it stalls.

 

I tune ALL my US made stick mags. Just as a precaution.

 

With the AGP, I take them apart and sand the inside channels on the sides where the follower rides with 200 grit where you'll see plastic disruptions from where the pins in the injection molding tool push the parts out. That's what you're hitting.

Then I screw the halves back together snugging the screws, then backing them off 1/3 rotation so they're not tight & won't collapse the mag.

Then I grasp the ends of the spring & stretch to add about 8"

 

With Surefires, I disassemble the mag, insert a standard 3/8" drive 5/8" spark plug socket in the top of the mouth like a shell would be sitting in it, then dip the top in boiling water for about the count of 10, then I let the mag cool with the socket inside until it's cool to the touch.

I do this to slightly widen the inside so there can be no drag on the shells whatsoever which could cause resistance as they feed.

I also grasp at the ends & lengthen the surefire mag's spring about 8"

 

On Personal guns, I found the tuned Surefire in the 8 round configuration to be extremely reliable and before acquiring Russian 8's, this was my preferred US made HD mag, with the strength to lift the heavy 3" magnum .00 buck quick enough to feed extremely reliably.

I really like the Surefire's Feed Lips, as they're always the perfect length to keep the nose of the shell down as it's supposed to be until fed.

 

 

Of course as with everything related to guns, YMMV.

Good luck.

 

ETA;

You should really fix your mag catch pin. It's half backed out in your picture. It's likely going to fall out next time you go shooting & you're going to have a hell of a time finding the pin & spring.;

 

Thanks for the heads up on the mag catch pin.

[Hammer1960 0]

I took off a small amount of material and now this is what happens on at least 1 out of 10 shells. It really jams in the chamber, I sometimes have to take a mallet to the charging handle to extract shell. I have tried 3 different mags and it does the same with all. It does not matter whether I am loading or shooting, same malfunction. I have used a micrometer to measure the shells and the small variance in size does not seem to matter. I don't know what else I can try, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Anyone know a good S12 gunsmith in OK?

Thanks

 

I think I know this problem, I had it too, and tried to "fix" the wrong area. (good thing I didn't go nuts with the "fixing")

 

I think this is an extractor spring that's too strong, if it is, you need to check the extractor cutout in the bolt head for debris, if that's not it, you can file the spring a little shorter, OR you can shoot it or somehow flex it more, mine weakened itself with time and doesn't jam like that anymore.

 

I could be wrong, so you should wait for someone to confirm that before you do anything.

I removed the bolt and took it to a friend who also has a S12 and we compared bolts. The shells were much more difficult to remove from mine than his. He did a little dremmel work on the shell holder on the opposite side of the extractor. THIS SOLVED THE PROBLEM!!! Ran 30 round through it last night and she ran like a bandit. I really appreciate everyones suggestions.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

The feed foot is opposite the extractor. As I said earlier, it is really difficult to diagnose some of this stuff from afar. Great to hear you got it running. Never give up! Stubbornness prevails again!