Poll - Hi Cap Mag options - Discussion

[BattleRifleG3 16]

And now for yet another post on the most tired subject of all. Discussions of hi-cap mags for our beloved Saiga-308.

 

I'd like not to go into everyone's idea for how someone else could make such a thing. There are simply tradeoffs and economics to a number of realistic possibilities. Hope you folks don't mind me making an assuption or two that some might disagree with. On some things let us please agree to disagree and still have respectful discussions.

 

This poll is for discussion. I have zero intention of taking anything too seriously unless it's technical information from mature, experienced, and knowledgeable people.

 

If the roll option were enabled, I'd post a poll. So please pick a real option and discuss it if you like.

 

As it is, it seems to be an every-man-for-himself on figuring out how to convert existimg mags this way. If there were more standardized options available, which hi cap option for the S-308 would you pick?

 

1. Considering the tradeoffs, I don't feel the need for hi-cap mags for the S-308.

 

2. I would only consider a magazine designed to work interchangeably with the factory mag. I understand that these would be a specialty item and be a tad bit expensive. It's worth it for a mag to fit a standard magged S-308. Probably the better part of $100 each.

 

3. I would go for a trunion modded conversion that involved minor mods to the receiver but some material removed from the trunion. While many have fired thousands of rounds through these without trouble, these were probably NATO rounds, while the S-308 is designed for full power 308. Thus this conversion may prevent safe use of full power 308 ammo. (Rick-16 please comment on this analysis if you have info to shed a better light on it.) This would a.) use modified G3 mags (Rick-16's method) or b.) unmodified G3 mags (Leadhead from Gunsnet's method.) Others have done this with Galil and M14 mags unmodified.

 

4. I would go for a system that requires a minor mod to each G3 mag but still allows them to work in a G3. This involves moderate mods to the receiver but not the trunion, which holds back the force of the bolt when firing. It moves the mag well rearward and remove the central post in the receiver, while providing structural support in its absence. Rounds point slightly downward and are fed upward via an integral feedramp. Such is the mag adaptor conversion system developed by me. The conversion is what I call 80% reversible, ie it can go back to the original mag with some improvisation by anyone qualified enough to do it in the first place. A Blackjack buffer is necessary for correct timing of the feeding.

 

5. I would go for a significant modification to the rifle, ie a partial re-engineering, involving a new hammer, an even farther rearward mag well, and a much larger adaptor with a completely irreversible conversion. This would have the advantage of using completely unmodified G3, M14, or FAL mags (pick one - sorry, not all 3 interchangeably) with no mods to the trunion, any necessary angle of aiming of the rounds, and plenty of length over which to feed them. It would of course require extensive irreversible mods to the receiver, and a large adaptor system. This is something I've begun to think of quite recently, after trying to design "the better battle rifle." Call it my MkIII concept.

 

If you're asking "why", then choose option 1. My reasons why are that the S-308 has AK reliability and durability, accuracy among the best battle rifles, and a great balance and smoothness in firing. It's very affordable to begin with and even a substantial conversion would only bring it up to the cost of a Century FAL or G3.

 

So what do you folks think of the above options? Again, please post your new ideas in other threads. I'm looking for a comparative view of different options.

[Dehamma 0]

I want a mag that interchanges with the factory mag. If I KNEW they worked, I would probably buy one for $75-$80.

[ice4196 0]

If Z1500 is making a 10rnd for the S-12, why cant someone convince him to make them for the 308

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Maybe he will. However, there is a far far smaller market for S-308 mags than S-12 mags. There is no gun like the S-12, and there is no mag market as crazy as for those mags.

 

He had to project how many he would have to sell in order to make it worthwhile. With a smaller market, a mag that costs a lot to tool for in order to have a lower price per mag would be less profitable than a market where you expect to sell far more.

 

Consider that even the US military has a device that uses Saiga-12 mags.

[cpileri 0]

I am a hold-out for option 2.

I still haven't lost hope.

I just orderd a generic 308 mag body that was supposed to be for a Winchester model 70. I still can't leave tinkering with these alone to find THE ONE that will be easily converted to the S-308.

In the meantime, I wait.

C-

[glitch308 0]

I've been giving this question a serious mull for some time now, and I've reached some conclusions. A versatile rifle should accept a readily available inexpensive magazine, not a rare, expensive or custom mag. Saiga 308 rifles are rare, so Saiga-specific hi-cap mags would be rare and expensive, even if you could get one. How much sense does it make to buy $100 mags for a $300 rifle, versus $10 mags for a $500 rifle? I'd say not much. To my mind, this easily justifies a $100-$200 conversion of a Saiga 308 to accept a $10-$20 mag. The only question is which mag. G3 mags are plentiful and cheap, M14 mags somewhat rarer and higher priced, but narrower up front requiring less severe trunion mods. The trunion mods are the key, because a versatile rifle must also be strong and reliable.

 

So here's the big question. How about a custom trunion? A trunion purpose built to accept that cheap mag, but installable in the receiver by the average hand-tool-competent enthusiast? Removing the original trunion from the receiver is possible at home. Getting the new trunion installed on the barrel could be farmed out, because the work is on the barrel, not the receiver. (Actually, an enterprising fellow might be able to manufacture the trunion and offer the installation service as well, including optionally machining the barrel to accept standard AK hardware.) Reinstalling the trunion should be possible at home, since average people build kit guns all the time.

 

It's just a thought, but I wonder...

[G O B 3,516]

Is there a possibility of an adapter/magwell extension that mounts to the .308 Saiga magwell to act as a guide/retainer for another mag, (either modded or preferably not) but still allso allow the stock saiga mag to be used? The adapter could be removable or just phisically large enough for the saiga mag to mount through it.

 

G O B

Edited October 9, 2005 by G O B

[BattleRifleG3 16]

The answer to GOB and Glitches questions is, in my opinion, no.

 

This is just my opinion, but it comes from tons of examination and a BSME degree with my strongest point being stress and strain analysis.

 

The Saiga-308 is a remarkable innovation. It fits the full power 308 Winchester round in the extremely reliable AK-100 action using the same length receiver. They took a gun designed for 7.62x39mm and made it take 308 with minimal changes. Find me a rifle that does the same thing.

 

That innovation, however, took a heck of a lot of stretching, making some parts do double duty, and that means a very special magazine. There is NO way to make a common 308 magazine stick in an unmodified S-308, adaptor well or no adaptor well. It just won't fit. Custom trunion? If you can find a material that is insanely stronger than steel to make it out of. Otherwise, the metal that would have to be cleared for the mag to fit would be the same metal that the trunion needs to do its job. I don't see how there's any room to add material to serve the same job as the material you'd have to remove.

 

In my view, the safer route is to mod the receiver. It's stamped sheet metal, and not a part that retains any explosive pressures. It basically only serves as guide rails for the bolt and carrier, and sustains the recoil between the barrel and the buttstock. That can be cut away and an alternate magwell installed to use different mags. That's the point of my conversion.

 

What I'm looking into is the possibility of using unmodified mags with better feeding geometry. But it would involve essentially re-engineering a good part of the rifle with who knows what results in handling. That's option 5.

[dragon 0]

I would go for a medium price mag, but without modification of the rifle.

I don't need Hi-cap mags, I want another mag and not break the bank getting it. I'll sell my rifle and replace it with another before I modify it.

I am losing hope in my possible source for mags.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Welcome to the losing hope club.

 

My thought is that there is a way to make them a reality, it's just expensive. Seeing how crazily people have paid for S-12 mags, it doesn't seem like a tall order that some folks would pay the better part of $100 for them. Just wouldn't expect to make a mint making them.

 

They're still on the drawing board from me...

[sauerquint 2]

<snip>

So here's the big question. How about a custom trunion? A trunion purpose built to accept that cheap mag, but installable in the receiver by the average hand-tool-competent enthusiast? Removing the original trunion from the receiver is possible at home. Getting the new trunion installed on the barrel could be farmed out, because the work is on the barrel, not the receiver. (Actually, an enterprising fellow might be able to manufacture the trunion and offer the installation service as well, including optionally machining the barrel to accept standard AK hardware.) Reinstalling the trunion should be possible at home, since average people build kit guns all the time.

 

It's just a thought, but I wonder...

 

I've pondered this one as well. With FAL mags there would be room for additional metal for a feed ramp of sorts. There is about a 1/4 inch gap between my FAL mag and the trunion. A new trunion that simply extends back a bit more would add that much more metal for strength. Of course you would need a different mag latch. If I were a machinist it would be interesting to see if one could be made from one of those 80% FAL receivers. Now that's a day dream.

Edited October 20, 2005 by sauerquint

[BattleRifleG3 16]

My concept that might possibly take FAL mags ain't lookin good at the moment, while my MarkII Adaptors are looking better every time I look at them.

[NoTreason4 0]

I like the idea of a 308 Saiga... but there is a 20 round mag in development in the US for the VEPR, which should hit the market soon.

 

So, it seems that a 308 VEPR is another way to go. (and probably the way I'd go.)

 

I don't have a 308 yet, kinda holding off until I see something I like.

[sauerquint 2]

I like the idea of a 308 Saiga... but there is a 20 round mag in development in the US for the VEPR, which should hit the market soon.

 

So, it seems that a 308 VEPR is another way to go. (and probably the way I'd go.)

 

I don't have a 308 yet, kinda holding off until I see something I like.

 

Could you provide a link to the information on Vepr mags?

[bamaboy 0]

I made a 25rnd.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8231

[okie shooter 0]

G-3,

 

Here's the problem, with most of us(you are one of the exceptions with an Engineering degree) we do not have the desire to even touch the metal on our rifles(other than minor modifications to fit a pistol grip or move the trigger group). That leaves the choice to either a custom made mag that will fit the rifle or some sort of adaptor to make the rifle take another magazine. I personally do not want to destroy any value of the rifle by modifying the trunions or the receiver without a good option(the Krebs type option for m1a mags would come to mind). I guess then after those two it would be modified magazines to fit the rifle.

 

Some times I think I want high capacity, in some ways others times I just really want more magazines for my 308 but those are not in great supply either. I might just get the m1a magazine and start a grinding and a fitting it too or settle for the 12 rd galil mags, at least in some ways they would be the easiest to convert and still "woo hoo" give me high cap(yes 12 is considered high cap).

 

If I were only younger and felt the urge to do the machining(I too have a engineering degree but alas they do not let me run the trains at work, sorry folks engineering joke) But if you do come up with a good solution I would love to look at it too.

 

My 2 cents.

[Gummerfan 0]

Welcome to the losing hope club.

 

My thought is that there is a way to make them a reality, it's just expensive. Seeing how crazily people have paid for S-12 mags, it doesn't seem like a tall order that some folks would pay the better part of $100 for them. Just wouldn't expect to make a mint making them.

 

They're still on the drawing board from me...

 

But of course you can't really compare the demand for .308 mags to Saiga 12 mags. For a hi-cap, mag-fed 12 ga., the S12 is the only game in town (unless you go to the trouble and expense of a DD). OTOH, there are plenty of .308 rifles out there with cheap, readily available hi-cap mags.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

That's why I don't thing the folks making S-12 mags will take to S-308 mags as quickly. Meaning machined ones for $75 are more realistic than plastic ones for $40.