Lovegasoline 0 Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Its been a while since I last shot (20 years), and I got my rifle/shotgun permit in NYC not long ago (yeah, NYC sucks for shooting culture, spare me the comments), my pistol license will be here any day as well. I had wanted to purchase a 12g pump for HD and general all around use, fun, but..I have shoulder injuries from years of climbing (torn cartiledge and deteriorated rotator cuffs) and no medical insurance so no fixes in the forseeable future. I had my eye on a alost new 590A1 Mossberg w/Full Vang Comp mods ($450 shipped), but I think I'm going to pass as I fear for my shoulders integrity after blasting 12g. So, I'm thinking a 20g semi-auto would be the best way to go, was considering a used Rem 1100, but I was intrigued by the low cost of the Saiga ($179 at CDNN w/1 mag). I have a few questions. -Does the stock have any sot of reoil pad? Can a good aftermarket pad be installed relatively easily on the Saiga stock? Has anyone done this? -Are replacement sstocks availible in different dmensions (or wood)? -What are the sights like? Can you describe them? Do you like them...seems like a very short distance between front/rear sight? Aftermarket GR sights availible? -why is a bolt lock back important...what is the current workaround for the Saiga20g? -what is the balance and feel of the S20 like? -what mags to get: will the 3" mag accept 2-3/4" shells and feed them jam-free? Thanks a bunch for any input. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 I can answer a few of your questions from my Saiga-12 I just got. (19in threaded barrel) The recoil pad is a slim piece of plastic. However, you can buy a slip-on (med. size) universal shotgun pad from Wal-Mart ($10) that fits perfectly. The buttstock is hollow. Length is a personal preference, I think it's fine, my friend who is 2in taller and 50lbs heavier says its too long, go figure. Haven't seen any wood stocks...I'm actually finishing a wood thumbhole stock for mine right now, though I'll paint it black in the end. Possible through the generosity of Billyjobob, another member here who provided the rough cut. Pic at bottom. I do not have the ribbed sights, but instead a bead in front and an adjustable notch sight in back. Mine came with the bolt hold open and I know that's good because when you load a magazine with ammo in it, the bolt MUST be back first. Then you give the charging handle a quick yank and you're ready. That's all I know so far, haven't been to the range yet with it As far as pump shotguns, would a pistol grip version fired from the waist be acceptable? I favor Remington over Mossberg, but they are a little more $$. Also, I got a folding wire stock (that would not be good for you) but the same company makes other recoil absorbing stocks. See link... http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Products/Compstock.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GoAF 0 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 The S20 has very little recoil, and seems decently balanced. My 3" mag will not even allow me to chamber a 2 3/4" round. The sights stink for slugs because they are loose and short, but work real well for standard operation. It's easy to just point the gun and hit whatever is above the front sight. Wood stocks are available, I'm not sure on different pull lengths, but a little fabrication skill can make anything happen. Many standard AK parts work, and after Sept. 14 you can convert to pistol grip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lovegasoline 0 Posted March 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 Thansk for the reply guys. KYSoldier: -seems like the bolt lock back is a significant shortcoming on the 20g. I'm reading many ranges DEMAND the feature on SGs. -I've not used but am familair with Compstocks...however, do they make a version that fits the Siaga 20g? I wasn't aware of that. The general lack of aftemarket parts also seems to be a strike against the Saiga platform, particularly when there are a myriad of new and used products for other guns. Bummer. -pistol grip from the waist is no good...too Hollywood. From what I understand, shotgun accuracy, like all other accuracy, comes from sighting...point and hip shoot may be OK for across the room (short room), but even then you need to hit the target and hit it where you WANT it hit. Cheek weld, shoulder plant, stock grip, and forearm grip give a solid 4 points of contact, no? Eliminating two of those points of contact as well as the entire sighting system cannot do anything but degrade accuracy. Plus, the SG has to shoulder quickly and aquire the sights quickly...the stock needs to fit for any kind of repeatable accuracy and pleasure. It would suck to get one and have it fit poorly , be stuck with 'one size fits all' and not have access to a replacement with correct dimensions. Maybe there are standard mass produced replacements (read-cheap)I haven't yet heard about? -Nice stock project you have there. I've just got done 1.5 years of designing and building my own furniture and I'm NOT looking for more work - I really want a SG that isn't going to demand it be turned into a project gun in order to acheive good sights, good fit, and safety. I'm after the budget thing at this stage which is why I'm looking at the Saiga. If it needs better sights, a bolt hold back to make it range-safe, and a new stock, the goods plus labor could easily double the cost of the SG. Gah. GoAF: -thanks for the honest assement. The sight picture looks amazingly short for a longarm (and my eyes ain't as good as they were). Looks like they would have to get swapped out to hit well with slugs. WHat ARE the sights/ Rifle sights? Adjustable? I do not know what if any modification would be necessary for a pistol grip stock (where is safety located)...and frankly, other than for looks, I'd probably prefer a standard stock, well fitted (though worth investigating for shoulder impact). I have no faith AWB will sunset. I'll wait and see. -thanks for the heads up on the mags. Anyone else have some input??? Still eager to learn more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomme boy 0 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 The 20ga is supposed to come with both mags. If it did not ask them why it does not come with them. EAA told me they are supposed to come with both. They said that a couple of places were taking out the 3" and selling it seperate to make more $ off of people. They sent me one for free. Isn't the thumbhole stock considered a pistol grip. If it is you can not put it on until after the AWB expires in Sept. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 I can answer your question with a question of my own... If the thumbhole stock is a pistol grip, why did the Chinese stick it on their AKs to comply with the '89 ban creating the MAK90? Why do you need US parts to change that stock to a pistol grip? It's different in the government's eyes, stupid I know, but it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GoAF 0 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 The sights are like open rifle sights. I will be putting on a red dot sight an scope mount before next deer season. That should only run $70. The stock pull length is comfortable to me (5'9", 165lbs). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 (edited) To LOVESGASOLINE I have the SAIGA-12,got it last year. Before I could try it a tree attacked wile I was cleaning up from last august's hurricane. Shattered both bones in right ancle left collarbone in 3 pieces. I finnally took the SAIGA-12 out a couple weeks ago. I was wondering if the recoil would be too much. WHAT recoil?I put maybe 30 to 40 rounds through that sucker with no discomfort at all. Felt more like a 16 gauge or .410 My sons and son inlaws were with me they had a remington pump.We went through 150 shells mostly with the SAIGA. The guys said the felt recoil of the pump was MUTCH heavier. I only had a slip on recoil pad(3/4in). I have since gotten blackjack buffer pads for the action,I haven't tried these yet but I understand this will further reduce recoil and greatly increases accuracy in AK type actions.My point is maybe a SAIGA in 12 gauge would serve your purpose.And if the20 is simular to it's bigger brother I don't think you will be dissapointed with it either. On the bolt hold-open,it is not hard to load without one,is real easy to load with one.Mine has been on order for a while. LOL hope you like yours , mine is a BLAST! Parts are gettin eiser to find,soon I will do a post with some sites that I have found. Edited March 23, 2004 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted March 23, 2004 Report Share Posted March 23, 2004 I'd be interested in what sites offer accessories as well! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GoAF 0 Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 AK hammers and sears work, right? I heard people talk about triggers, and assumed these all worked too . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
J A 0 Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 Reguarding thumbhole stocks read letter # 32. http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/user/wbardw...falist/law.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 OK, this is what I got out of it... "Adding a thumbhole stock to an AK style semiautomatic rifle using more than 10 imported parts would now also constitute assembly of a semiautomatic rifle subject to the cited sections." the regulation being... "Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, part 178, section 178.39, provides that no person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle using more than 10 of imported parts listed in paragraph© of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes" Granted this letter is about rifles, but my Saiga-12 with a thumbhole stock wouldn't be prohibited from importation so I should be fine. Unless you wanted me to notice something else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianW 0 Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 I bought a saiga 20 for my wife to try skeet shooting. She's 5'2" and a petite build. Let's just say that she really didn't like the one shot she took from my Remington 12ga pump. The Saiga still streches her reach and with a 22" barrel and a long LOP she struggles with supporting the weight of the gun with her foreend grip streched far forward. The natural solution would be to move the trigger to the forward position and use a shorter stock, which would move the gun 4 inches back for her making it easier and safer for her to control. But there is no way to move the trigger forward without having to address it being considered an "assault weapon". Letter 32 in the link above said a gun with more than 10 imported parts. I guess that if one converts the saiga one would then be considering the gun to be a US built gun with however many imported (original) saiga parts. Am I correct in this assessment? The second question is how many parts does the ATF consider the Saiga to be made up from? And what are these parts? In other words if I change out all but 10 of the original saiga parts then I could modify the saiga to fit my wife? TIA BrianW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusCow 1 Posted May 6, 2004 Report Share Posted May 6, 2004 BrianW, to answer one of your questions without going into much detail: You can modify Saiga shotguns the same way as rifles, just not legally. If you read the '94 AWB, you'll see that a semi-auto shotgun can only have one of the following (that being the DETACHABLE MAGAZINE): (D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of - (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii)a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine. therefore, if you put a pistol grip on a saiga shotgun before the ban sunsets you will be breaking the law. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrianW 0 Posted May 7, 2004 Report Share Posted May 7, 2004 How do I find the 94 AWB to read. At the ATF.gov website I can't find it . And a search under the following items yeilds zero results: automatic shotgun assault shotgun shotgun Obviously their search engine is pretty blind If you can give me a link that would be great. One last thought, so if the saiga didn't have a detachable mag then a pistol grip would be legal. Is there a way to have a non-removable magazine (perhaps like an SKS)? If I did make the magazine non-removable then I would probably need a bolt catch to hold the bolt open to load shells through the top. BrianW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusCow 1 Posted May 7, 2004 Report Share Posted May 7, 2004 google search US Code (cornell is the best) and look for title 18 section 922. there is a lot of bullshit in there.. the link below will cut through all that for you read everything here Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusCow 1 Posted May 7, 2004 Report Share Posted May 7, 2004 (edited) One last thought, so if the saiga didn't have a detachable mag then a pistol grip would be legal. Is there a way to have a non-removable magazine (perhaps like an SKS)? If I did make the magazine non-removable then I would probably need a bolt catch to hold the bolt open to load shells through the top. BrianW this was discussed in another thread (in the Saiga 12 forum) of course it would be possible, but probably not worth it... another idea discussed is taking out the bottom of the mag, but i'd rather break the law than go through that!!! edit: looking until september is your best bet right now.. Edited May 7, 2004 by JesusCow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.