recoil spring help

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Just did a search for 'recoil spring' and found a post from ChileRelleno dated October, 2012 that seems to answer

one of my questions and wanted to see if anyone else could add to it.

I shoot the heaviest slug loads out there and want to reduce the force of impact from the bolt carrier on the return-spring guide, which is significant. Already purchased and installed the Tromix Factory Full Power Recoil Spring, as sold by CSS (part # TRX-SPRING), at forward position, and am now considering purchasing a second Tromix Full Power Recoil Spring and installing it at the rearward position as a way to further reduce the force of impact. ChileRelleno said it would be OK but I would like to also hear from any of you that may have pertinent comments or suggestions.

I don't need to be able to cycle low brass or other low-power shells. Once I can shoot the commercially available higher power shells (i.e. the Lightfield Commander IDS 3-inch) with only nominal impact, then, and only then, can I consider developing custom slug loads that may be a little heavier still.

 

Other relevant mods are a Tom Cole heavy duty Op Rod, the JTE spring guide and rod, and a DPH 6-position gas plug set to 1 (was told by Greg at CSS this allowed even less gas in than the factory plug also set on 1). Even with these changes the force of impact is still severe and I would like to reduce it further. BTW, reducing the power of the loads has already been ruled out as an option, and the increase in recoil from the even heavier loads is not an issue. SAAMI or CIP pressure issues are being evaluated separately from this consideration.

The gas block does have the factory 3 ports unmodified and I'd prefer to not have to close any of them

A gas plug that would allow even less gas in than the DPH on 1 would be fine but I don't know of any

Increasing the mass of the moving parts further does not seem practical

Using a rubber recoil buffer seems to be a work-around but not a fix.

I have reduced the amout of gas acting upon the system, I have increased the mass of the moving parts, and I have increased the stiffness of one of the recoil springs, both if I get a second one.

 

Are there additional ways to reduce the impact I have not considered?

 

Thanks everybody

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Just my initial thoughts, try using the heaviest possible gas puck. I have several and weighed them a few years back, there was one that was particularly heavy. When Mike made the booster piston he stated that the reason it was so effective was due to its light weight. I am just thinking that you could use this line of thought in reverse. Also another thought, you could use a heavier spring for the front and rear springs. Most people only switch out the front spring. I do not know the power of either factory springs so I don't know if it would even help, just a thought. I don't know if this helps but that is all I have rite now.

[corbin 621]

Would an auto plug work if you set it to vent off the majority of the gas? I suspect it would.

[Bcrider 68]

This is a very interesting topic opposite the usual under gassed threads. Corbin I think the auto plug idea is great. Weren't some of the older saigas with the longer barrels 2 porters? May have to ultimately close a port.

[Nephilim7 107]

Word of caution:

The Auto Plug is suggested NOT to be used with 3" shells by the manufacturer. Perhaps if it had a progressive spring and longer vent stroke with more ports, it would be more versatile...

 

Too much recoil absorption can cause light cycling issues for some guns. You might try a 1"-2" soft recoil pad. It would help your shoulder anyway.

 

I would think the factory plug could have a "0" setting detent notch cut to hod the reg nearly all the way in, beyond setting "1".

 

I would want to choke the gas to reclaim as much gas as possible for velocity. Velocity kills!

[slippingaway 89]

This is a very interesting topic opposite the usual under gassed threads. Corbin I think the auto plug idea is great. Weren't some of the older saigas with the longer barrels 2 porters? May have to ultimately close a port.

 

I have to agree with Person Dog. You are going the exact opposite direction that most people with Saigas have. I can respect this thing as a slug gun for sure. My favorite round to shoot. I honed out one of my ports to cycle low brass, and now the Remington Slugger so hard it's smacking my dust cover up! Need a high tension spring or a buffer myself.

 

 

 

Thanks everybody

Welcome to the Saiga Forum, LoudBoomBoom! Glad to have you on board. You are right in asserting that Tolstoy would have suffered if told to keep it short.and get on with the story. If he would have done that I might have been able to read Anna Karenina without passing out after every 5 pages when I was in middle school!

But hey, this is a forum, which is more like a conversational exchange. I will admit after a long day of staring at screens, your paragraphs started to blur on me. It favors keeping the reader's attention by being concise, brief, and on topic. That said, I appreciate your thoroughness in posting.

Edited January 24, 2013 by slippingaway

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Wow!, What a response in so short a time! Thank you guys... I'm blown away.

 

King of the Hill - Increasing the mass of the moving assembly will work. I wasn't aware of heavy gas pucks being available. Do you remember a brand name or other fact to steer me in the right direction? I just heard this morning from Tony at Tromix about some 15% stiffer recoil springs he knows about and I am waiting to find out more info on how to get hooked up with those. Please let me know about that gas puck... please.

 

Corbin and Person Dog - Based on information provided by Greg at CSS, the DPH 6-position plug set to 1 is more effective at restricting gas flow to the puck than the auto plug; that's why i'm using the DPH. Closing off one of the three ports on the barrel would be a most drastic last resort.

 

Nephilim7 - You are correct about the auto-plug. Recoil absorption is not an issue when shooting from a 60 lbs. bench rest, and I have already addressed recoil to my shoulder when in the field (I use a modified LimbSaver setup and a large JTE Competition brake). The less unwanted gas is used for cycling the action, the more is available for muzzle velocity; Agreed!

 

slippingaway - Thank you for the flowers and your point is well taken.

 

As soon as I make any progress, whether with stiffer spring(s) from Tromix, or whatever, I'll post. As I have stated before, I am new to the Saiga world and there is way too much that I don't know, so, please, allow me to be your humble student at this collective. Keep it coming. Thanks again.

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

Update

 

Just learned something very interesting about recoil springs...

 

There are the "reliability" or "low-power" springs which are meant to allow better cycling of low-brass/low-power shells. These springs are made less stiff than the factory springs. No surprise there.

 

There are the factory standard springs meant as an accommodation compromise for the average shotgunner. No surprise there either.

 

There are after-market springs called "Factory Full Power" also being sold. I purchased one of those as a stiffer alternative to the factory spring to reduce the force of impact of the bolt carrier on the return-spring guide. The one I bought was part number TRX-SPRING from CSS and labeled as a Tromix spring. Tony at Tromix explained to me that spring is called "Full Power" to differentiate it from the "low power" model but not in comparison with the factory spring. It has about the same degree of stiffness as the factory spring and is supposed to be sold as replacement for the factory spring when it fails and not as an enhacement meant for 'full power' loads. I need to let Greg at CSS know this because, obviously, he didn't know this when he recommended it as a replacement for my brand new Saiga's spring.

 

Then there are specialty springs made either in low quantities for testing purposes, to satisfy custom requirements, or made for a different purpose originally but adapted to this use. Brownell sells Wolff springs that would come under the latter description. Tromix, and maybe others, have springs that would be the former. I just ordered two specialty springs from Tromix that are rated at about 15% stiffer than factory and they should help.

 

After some inquiry, I have also learned that a product has been developed by a well-known manufacturer in this field and should soon be in production, and available, to address the concerns of shooters who, like myself, want to fine tune their Saigas to better suit their preferences. I am sure the manufacturer will make its announcement at a time and medium of its choice. I appreciate being entrusted with this information but it is not my place to jump the gun, let the cat out of the bag, or any such idiom, or provide details that a potential competitor could use to scoop them.

 

And as soon as I find the heavier pucs that King of the Hill wrote about, I should be in business.

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Adding one of the mid-barrel comps should work. They rob a lot of gas pressure after the bullet passes by. Most have to have gas work performed after installation .

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

sapper137usmc - Your comment is exactly the type of thinking outside the box I have come to cherish on this forum. I appreciate the thought required to make such a relevant observation. Thank you. You are correct in pointing out that a mid-barrel compensator (MBC) does play a role in reducing gas pressure before the projectile exits the bore. An MBC will reduce muzzle climb, perceived recoil, and look very cool while doing so.

 

However, if I understand the mechanics involved correctly, the MBC taps in to the barrel and bleeds off gas downstream from the 3 ports for the gas block; that is AFTER the gas has entered the gas block, has moved past the gas plug, and has started to act upon the puc and the bolt carrier assembly. I can see it affecting the residual pressure level in the barrel at that time but I don't know if that is early enough in the cycle to make a difference, or too late because of the linear momentum already acquired. Keeping in mind the only objective is to reduce the force of the impact of the bolt carrier against the return-spring guide and that an MBC comes into play after that process has already started, with my limited experience in this field, I can't quite see it. I would love to learn more about how an MBC's distance from the gas block ports affects the timeline of the gas action. Given an arbitrary velocity of 1800 fps for the gas column at the time it passes under the gas ports and a distance of 5 inches to the MBC we can figure just over 2 ten-thousandths of a second elapsed time. Has the puc already started moving? I don't know but it certainly sounds intriguing. Thanks.

 

I wonder if Dr. Sheldon Cooper is available...

[lbsrdi 1,078]

After a lot of searching I found the data on the weight of the 5 pucks I own, unfortunately it may not help much. I have found that the factory puck is the heaviest of the ones that I own. The info is in a old thread called "two new pucks from MD Arms."

Here is another thought, it has been reported by many(I own one) that the twister puck is the most inefficient puck on the market when it comes to transferring the energy from the gasses in the gas block to cycling the action. This is for several reasons. So it seems that using this line of thought, if one wanted to lessen the energy used to cycle the action, the twister puck may work for you.(I can't believe I said that)

There are people that will say they would never put one of these pucks in their GB, for several reasons. The company had terrible CS and ripped people off here, plus the puck sucks for reliability with low-brass. The main reasons I no longer would use it is due to it being a bitch to knock out of the GB, and due to there being better options on the market. If you can find one it may be just what you need, or not. If you can't find one to test out you are probably best off using your factory Russian puck, as it is the heaviest puck that I know of. GL

[Nephilim7 107]

Has the puc already started moving? I don't know but it certainly sounds intriguing. Thanks.

 

I wonder if Dr. Sheldon Cooper is available...

I believe Dr. Cooper, being a physicist with no interest in the applied sciences, would respond, "Actually, the puc is always moving until its temperature entirely reaches 0 K, that is -273.15 degrees F. It's called thermal energy."

 

NO ONE OUT-GEEKS ME!

 

Truth is, I don't know how you would find that out aside from testing with high-speed cameras. On paper, impulse is nearly instant. In real life, there are way to many variables to be able to know. One can guesstimate from experience though and have a pretty good idea what will happen. Maybe one of the talented business members can chime in with their depth of experience and give you a good guess.

 

Personally, I would try all else before trying the very permanent MBC. All the other ideas combined may be more than sufficient and cheaper. I hear those MBCs can be tough to keep clean. They are also too expensive for my tastes. Just my opinion. Do as you will, but be sure to report back! Pics are always nice. Good luck!

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

King of the Hill - OK. That's what I wanted to know. Now I feel free to go to my local hardware store, buy some depleted U stock and machine my own. Thanks. I appreciate the effort you put into this.

 

Nephilim7 - Dude!... You are on fire!... That didn't even come close to crossing my mind. I loved it!

 

I am hoping that when I put on those two specialty springs I ordered from Tromix that will do it. If not, I do have one little trick up my sleeveless coat. BTW, You said you wanted pictures? How about the one below? Thanks

[Nephilim7 107]

Happy to amaze and entertain!

 

Along the lines of a heavy puc:

 

What's to stop you from boring out a blind hole in the rear face of the puc, score the walls of the hole, and fill it with molten lead? You would need to make sure there was appropriate face area left for contact with the rod, but this would give you an adjustable-weight puc. Too heavy? Cut a bit out with a knife. The impulse driven acceleration would serve to constantly hammer the malleable lead into its hole. Just something to consider...

ETA: I would suggest a round mill so as to leave a smooth dome at the bottom of the hole for structural integrity of the puc. Don't want to start any micro-cracks down there...

 

Edited January 25, 2013 by Nephilim7

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

verry interesting...