Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 so im not sure if this is an actual problem or not as this (v12) is my first ak platform weapon of any kind. ive had nothing but issues feeding cheap rounds...FTE almost every single time. the gas piston threaded into the bolt carrier has a little play in it side to side where it actually threads into the bolt carrier. is this normal? i know the v12 has its self regulating gas system in which its basically supposed to be able to handle all types of rounds, and i also know that some weapons need a "break in period" to be properly evaluated...but, from the people ive talked to who are familiar with actual kalashnikovs, im told there isnt supposed to be any play in the gas piston itself...and thats the only explanation i can come up with for this FTE issue. the issue has been had with numerous #6 shot and also random target loads, all 2 3/4"...slugs and 00buck run flawlessly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadyVepr 10 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 In some cases you need to fire a bunch of higher power ammo before the cheep stuff will run good. Others it works right out of the box, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 How many FPS are the rounds you are running? 1200fps and up have had much more success than lighter loads and "low recoil" stuff. Are you using the factory magazine or aftermarket? Some SGM 10-12 rounders have had issues sticking because of some leftover material inside that needs to be smoothed out. Have you disassembled your weapon at all? If so ensure you replaced everything properly. It has happened that the gas puck was placed in backward when reassembled and this causes some funny issues. Then the bad news. Some of these will not run light loads out of the box. They need some help with smoothing and polishing parts inside and such. Even then some just do not like light loads. For the most part all semi auto shotguns have their own quirks. With the array of ammo, loads, shot type, etc, making one that runs everything is near impossible. Like having a pistol that shoots .22, 9mm, .40, .45, and .357 magnum interchangeably. Would be a nightmare to develop. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Yea its all been disassembled, cleaned, an reassembled properly. Im hoping its just one of thise situations where it needs to be fired more. But the question remains: is the gas piston supposed to have a little side to side play in it? There are dimpled impressions in either side of the threads on the end of the bolt carrier where the gas piston screws in that prevent it from being tightened which leads me to believe its supposed to be that way but for there to be ANY wiggle in such a sophisticated gas system seems a little odd to me. Ill try to post some pics after work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 A little play is normal on your piston. Many AKs have it. Also try not to limp shoulder the weapon. The more stable the shooter, the more reliable your shotgun will run. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Awesome, thats good news! Guess ill just keep running hot loads through it (which is never something to complain about lol) in hopes that i can one day dump a full 10 round mag without a FTE OR it costing me $1 per trigger pull lol. Thanks guys Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Somethingto try and may help. When you said ten round dump i assume you are refering to from a SGM magazine. There has been a lot of talk about these magazines having "burrs" in them fromthe mold causin issues (i had this problem personally). Try this- Unload the magazine. Take your finger and slowly push the follower downward as deep as you possibly can. See if the follower moves smoothly all the way down. If it does not release the follower and let it return to its resting position. Place a screwdriver or other object on the follower ans forcefully push the follower down and let it come back up very quickly. Do this quite a few times until the follower moves smoothly from top to bottom. Easiest way to test the SGM mags is to try your factory five rounder with weaker loads and see if your gun shoots them using it. If it does the mags may be the issue. If not them some other fix may be necessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Good tip menace! The follower is a bit rough in my sgm but unfortunately the fte problem happens with the factory 5 rounder also. But i WILL b racking the hell outta that sgm mag once i get home because the issue seems to be alot worse with the sgm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DresNightfire 39 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 ...the gas piston threaded into the bolt carrier has a little play in it side to side where it actually threads into the bolt carrier. is this normal? ... Please post a video of this if you can. Play on the bolt carrier itself at the location you are speaking of is not normal. It should be solid as a rock, but we will need you to post a video or multiple pics showing the amount of play you are speaking of. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Am i allowed to post a youtube link? Or how would i go About posting a video? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted July 25, 2013 Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 youtube should be fine. there are a ton of gun videos there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Here it is Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2013 Im no gunsmith or engineer or nothing like that but just visually judging by the internals design i figure the tip of the gas piston inserts into the cavity inside the puck once a round is chambered...gotta be tough with 1cm worth of play in the actual piston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 26, 2013 Report Share Posted July 26, 2013 (edited) Your piston gets guided into position by the gas tube. Hence the fat portion of the piston. Mine has a small amount of play in it too, but not much. You could contact WPA for warranty work, but as long as its not being allowed to screw or unscrew, Id say its ok. Yours is moving much more than mine does though. Edited July 26, 2013 by Captain Hero Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DresNightfire 39 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) Your piston rod play room looks fine, but I would call and verify with the importer (or pm papazorro or evlblkwpnz or tac47) and send him a link of your video as well. When you say target ammo, it's too vague as there's a hundred different kinds of target ammo. I've compiled the 12 gauge 2 2/3" shells for your reference: http://www.doitdarith.com/temp/vepr12/wolfammo12gaugevepr12.html Edited July 27, 2013 by DresNightfire 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
menace667 194 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Off topic Dres, bit i looked at the list you posted and had a proud "Team America, Fuck Yeah" moment. The list calls 1400fps rifled slughs high powered ammo, but i have some Hornady 9 pellet 00 that runs 1600fps. It kicks like a freaking mule on steroids, but certainly does what it is supposed to. That is American ingenuity at work. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 From the reports I have seen, Most V12s need something like 3 1/8 Dram eq or hotter to run. Some have guns that will run 3 dr Eq without work, but most end up just buying 3 1/4 dr stuff. The fixes are about the same as the Saiga, but there is less need for friction work. For practical terms, look for loads that are either at least 1 1/8 oz (32 gram) of shot moving 1200 FPS or faster (3 dr eq). Or alternatively, if the velocity is down, the weight has to go up. For reference, 1 oz loads (28 gram) it must be at least 1235 FPS. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff176/_DMC/DEP12.jpg You might have better luck with the 3 1/4 dram eq row of the chart. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Strawdawg 1 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 If you want to shoot the lower end of the range, try one of the CSS springs. I tried one yesterday, and again today, and I shot some old Winchester light target loads that are rated 2 3/4 drams with 1 1/8 oz loads. My favorite light load is the Remington game load which is 3 1/4 drams and 1 oz load at 1290 fps. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lewie212 37 Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 I recommend factory springs. Break it in a bit. My stock v12 runs Winchester universal no problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Off topic Dres, bit i looked at the list you posted and had a proud "Team America, Fuck Yeah" moment. The list calls 1400fps rifled slughs high powered ammo, but i have some Hornady 9 pellet 00 that runs 1600fps. It kicks like a freaking mule on steroids, but certainly does what it is supposed to. That is American ingenuity at work. +1 for the Hornady buckshot. Their new loads are badass. The only slugs I run now are the Brenneke. Seems all others I tried fail in comparison. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Is over-penetration what it is supposed to do? I suppose that makes sense for hogs though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Is over-penetration what it is supposed to do? I suppose that makes sense for hogs though. The brenneke slugs I've used have been more accurate over the others. The SF short mags are prolly the best buy for power and other uses, but the max barrier penetration loads have more ass. They say not to use them for hunting as over penetration is likely. I wouldn't hesitate to use them should the need arise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Is over-penetration what it is supposed to do? I suppose that makes sense for hogs though. The brenneke slugs I've used have been more accurate over the others. The SF short mags are prolly the best buy for power and other uses, but the max barrier penetration loads have more ass. They say not to use them for hunting as over penetration is likely. I wouldn't hesitate to use them should the need arise. I was referring to the hornady 9 pellet OOB 1600 FPS load described in the quote. Considering that standard OOB over penetrates at 1325 FPS for HD purposes, and has a ratty pattern, 1600 FPS would seem a move in the wrong direction. Better to have more pellets and a little less penetration which is what you get with a normal 15 pellet magnum load. There would be a lot of kick with that when you consider the recoil of a 1 ounce slug at 1600 then add another 1/8 oz. Hornady is one of the few companies that is honest about pellet size too. their 00B really are 00 sized, and are generally harder, rounder and plated, as well as buffered. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Is over-penetration what it is supposed to do? I suppose that makes sense for hogs though. The brenneke slugs I've used have been more accurate over the others. The SF short mags are prolly the best buy for power and other uses, but the max barrier penetration loads have more ass. They say not to use them for hunting as over penetration is likely. I wouldn't hesitate to use them should the need arise. I was referring to the hornady 9 pellet OOB 1600 FPS load described in the quote. Considering that standard OOB over penetrates at 1325 FPS for HD purposes, and has a ratty pattern, 1600 FPS would seem a move in the wrong direction. Better to have more pellets and a little less penetration which is what you get with a normal 15 pellet magnum load. There would be a lot of kick with that when you consider the recoil of a 1 ounce slug at 1600 then add another 1/8 oz. Hornady is one of the few companies that is honest about pellet size too. their 00B really are 00 sized, and are generally harder, rounder and plated, as well as buffered. Oh. lol. I couldnt tell you on the overpenetraion aspect, as most of their buckshot is the same across the board. The CD, Superformance, and Zombie loads are all the same shit with different hulls. I never done any real testing with it for overpenetration in an HD scenario, but it may overpenetrate. Theres always a risk for it, but its hard to say how bad it would be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted July 30, 2013 Report Share Posted July 30, 2013 Hornady claims to use different powders in their defensive loads to minimise muzzle flash, so that is probably different. The commercial load that I think makes most sense for HD is a #4 buck higher velocity load with the flight control wad that Federal sells as a coyote buster. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Hornady claims to use different powders in their defensive loads to minimise muzzle flash, so that is probably different. The commercial load that I think makes most sense for HD is a #4 buck higher velocity load with the flight control wad that Federal sells as a coyote buster. Yeah I forgot about that, But they also make a new 3" magnum load which I would like to try out for HD. Its loaded to 1300 fps, and is nickel plated of 1.5 oz of shot. Seems interesting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PapaZorro 401 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Here it isIMHO, it is OK. Piston must have some movement in the bolt carrier, it is described in AK patent as an Mikhail Kalashnikov invention. The absence of small gap is a warranty issue. Of course the gap should not be very big - up to 3 mm up and 3 mm down, as far as I remember. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted August 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 That sounds about right. Thx all for the feedback, glad this isnt contributing to my fte issues...back to the drawing board for me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted August 5, 2013 Report Share Posted August 5, 2013 Do as Gunfun suggested and get some 3 Dram or higher. Mine runs 2 3/4 Dram (Winchester AA). One thing no one has mentioned, as this is your first AK variant. You need to pull it into your shoulder when shooting the low power stuff. If you don't give a it good back stop, you can cause the FTE's. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Onetap 4 Posted August 6, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2013 Yea that was the first thing i thought also. I did quite a bit of research b4 buying this weapon and tht seemed to be a recurring theme amongst the ppl having "issues" with the gun so i made sure i wasnt limping it at all. I think my next plan of action will be to polish the bolt carrier rails and see if that garners any results....other than that imma just run the hell out of some heavy loads. Im quite sure its something simple Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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