Almost Zero Recoil?

[perzentkar 0]

I'm just wondering what any of you have tried for recoil reduction of the Saiga 12? I've done a lot with mine and am just looking for some ideas as to what others have done with theirs.

[bobabuee 29]

welcome

 

ati scorpion grip ,I have ace folder aluminum stock  with 1inch pad,  also have mako front grip  AG-44SB I wish ati made fore grip  but its ok on recoil for now not to bad all depends what you shoot and how much

I want mussel brake cant decide on one.

[perzentkar 0]

Thanks, I am an engineering Physics student and designed my own system for it. I am also looking for a compensator, i recently contacted barret and asked about getting one of theirs for it. I shoot pretty much everything through it without a problem, I am just trying to maximize the performance of it. I have a collapsible stock on mine with two recoil springs i specially ordered, even on it's lowest gas setting i can shoot low brass. This week I will finish milling a couple parts for it and I want this to be the last step.

[gunfun 3,931]

There are many threads on this topic already. You can best search the sight using google.

 

The recipe is fairly simple. 

Some sort of stock/ buttpad that allows the gun to decelerate over greater space and time (including options of: enediine type stocks, pogo stocks of various brands, and mercury tubes.). A good muzzle brake compensator, such as Molot, Tromix Monster, JTE competition, etc.(or for max performance, a short gas job and dual mid barrel comps.) Obviously light ammo counts too, and if you want to go very light, you will need to retune the gun to run it, at the expense of the ability to run the heavier stuff. Race guns are tuned with timing adjustments, soft/ progressive springs, and probably carefully tailored load selection. They can get very close to recoil neutral, but they are less concerned with the feel of impact on your shoulder than keeping the muzzle level and on target.

 

I've got kick eez sorbethane butt pad, 16 oz mercury tube, and a compensator all of which add up to a soft shooting gun. I am not sure whether I think the mercury tube is worth the weight for the medium and light ammo, but girls seem to prefer that gun to the light one...

[Nephilim7 107]

GunFun has it right.

 

For me, the setup with most recoil reducing measures (would have diminishing returns) would be:

 

CSS GK-01 clone muzzle break

Mid barrel compensator (expensive)

Soft, squishy pistol grip

Enidine Shot Stock receiver extension tube (hydraulic)

GL-Shock stock ( collapsible pogo stock)

Mercury tubes or the like on the outside of the stock to add inertia

KickEez sorbothane butt pad

Shoot the lightest loads that reliably cycle the weapon

 

Shorter barrel helps too, but will make the mid barrel comp difficult. Also, a vertical fore grip helps control muzzle rise.

 

The whole system would have to be engineered and tuned to work together to squeeze the most out of it. There would be tremendous diminishing returns and some of those items are expensive and it's not very practical to do all of these together. You could eliminate all recoil by only firing the gun from a lead sled...

 

I plan on only a GK-01 clone, GL-Shock stock, and a KickEez sorbothane butt pad. As a wise and very Evl man once told me, modern shotshells have evolved such that there isn't much performance missed by shooting only 2 3/4" shells. In general, I tend to agree.

 

I have also kicked around the wild idea that an extended piston system could be installed in a reinforced receiver extension tube (aka, buffer tube) and the rear trunnion drilled to allow rod protrusion into the receiver almost to the rear of the locked up carrier (hammer modification required). This would allow a progressive spring and buffer to act on the weapon in a long recoil stroke. I don't believe anyone has tried this before. Maybe they have. It would certainly slow down the cycle rate, but should transfer a lot of the sharp recoil into a firm shove. This would be an interesting project...

 

I wish I had known about the S-12 when I was picking my senior year design project.

 

Let us know what you decide to do. Good luck!

[JoeAK 337]

I just hold the gun tighter, wood stock with a steel butt-plate.

[gunfun 3,931]

JOEAK-That works, but I guarantee that you can run a gun with a good comp and a simple recoil pad faster with the same ammo. There is no advantage to pain. I also think the steel buttpad on the AK stock is slippery and doesn't mount as positively. I can reload more quickly when my gun stays planted in my shoulder without having to concentrate on keeping it there. 

 

I agree with neph about rapidly deminishing returns once you have done a recoil pad and a comp. (and the comp doesn't do a lot with the weak ammo either. The difference is measurable, but you probably won't feel it. When you use hotter ammo, the gas vectoring becomes increasingly effective.)

 

IMO it's kinda pointless if you have to shoot wimpy ammo. To me, the question is how can I get the most comfort and control out of full power ammo, without adding cost, complexity, significant bulk or weight. I did mine just to see how far I could go short of the short gas/ mid comp mods. (although I'd sure like to try that someday.) To be honest, I might like it just as well without the weight of the mercury tube. I just wanted to see how much of a difference it made. If I ever run competitions as I hope to do, that will probably come out to lighten up the gun.

 

Shoot your gun a bit before you spend scads of money on recoil reduction. You will find that with just a good kick-eez or limbsaver  pad it is gentler than anything else you have tried with the same loads. If all you plan to run is target loads and mid-power buckshot, it's not all that big a deal. 

 

The way I think of it is, that S12 is on the softer shooting end of gas operated semi-s. There might be something a little softer out there, but not by much and I haven't tried it. Shooting a standard field load of 00B out of an S12 is pretty comparable in feel to shooting a tactical reducded recoil load out of a pump. 

 

I waffle as to whether I find the compensator or choke more useful. Obviously the preferred option is to have both at the same time.

 

Final shot- I'd suggest avoiding any stock that telescopes under recoil. Some people love them and others hate them. A lot of it has to do with body size and shape, but many people get pinched or find that it throws off their cheek weld. I like a solid stock with a sorbethane pad. It mounts solid with just enough grip at the back, but not too much, and only gets squishy under impact. So you get the same repeatable constant cheekweld you would with a steel buttplate. Limbsavers are grippier and squishy all the time. They feel like they soak up about the same amount of kick to me, but we all know how hard that is to measure and how easy it is for a manufacturer to claim some unsubstantiated percentage.

 

Here is a low quality video of a petite girl I know shooting my lightweight (non-race style) S12 with 3 dram ammo, and improper stance. She probably weighs 110 and is not getting beat up. This one only has about 1/2" of sorbethane pad on the steel plate, and weighs ~7.6lbs empty. Notice that she can handle it. I wish I had the video still of the difference leaning into the gun made for her. http://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&ns=1&video_id=Wp8aL2ju6ZQ

She barely moves at all with the other gun and the same ammo.

[JoeAK 337]

I won't argue with that, but I'm not too worried about gaining speed, as I'll barely notice any gain, people at the range already think the thing is FA when I'm shooting. Only time I've had pain with the S-12 is shooting slugs benched.

[perzentkar 0]

Thanks Guys,Here's what I have done to it thus far. I custom ordered a compression spring for the stock and milled out two 2-inch slots in the collapsible stock to give it two length adjustments with a travel of 2 inches upon firing. This is a 14 pound spring, i also have a 9 and a 20 pound spring for it, The gas system is a 6 slot so I shouldn't have to worry about cycling issues, if I do I will port that out as well, I polished the trigger and buffered the backplate to take some pressure off it, also i ordered a recoil spring that is 2 pounds stiffer than the stock one and the chambering is definitely noticeably better. It's definitely a work in progress and I have some other ideas I'm throwing around before I try them.

[saltydecimator 482]

need moar pics!!!

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks Guys,Here's what I have done to it thus far. I custom ordered a compression spring for the stock and milled out two 2-inch slots in the collapsible stock to give it two length adjustments with a travel of 2 inches upon firing. This is a 14 pound spring, i also have a 9 and a 20 pound spring for it, The gas system is a 6 slot so I shouldn't have to worry about cycling issues, if I do I will port that out as well, I polished the trigger and buffered the backplate to take some pressure off it, also i ordered a recoil spring that is 2 pounds stiffer than the stock one and the chambering is definitely noticeably better. It's definitely a work in progress and I have some other ideas I'm throwing around before I try them.

 

What is the spring rate for your recoil spring? I've been trying to figure out what the OEM recoil spring rate is, since on of mine seems to be getting old. Also, how did you determine spring rate?

[Capt Nemo 882]

I went with a Kicklite stock for mine.  Only problem is screws loosening even under blue Locktite.  Get a wisker pulled out of my moustache every once in awhile, but no pinching.  After 50+ heavy loads with the Kicklite, no problem!  With the old AK stock that Century had put on, those 50 rounds would have your arm in a sling for a month!  My arm is still a little sore in some positions from my first time out, and it's been almost a year!

 

Tweaking the gas system also helps with the recoil.  Mine refused to fire even 3" on the factory #1 setting, because they didn't grind the threads down far enough.  A little off the plug made those 3" loads fire with just a strong but gentle shove instead of the sharp recoil normally felt.  An aftermarket fixed adjustable plug would help tweak things more, but an auto plug probably wouldn't help.  If the gun also has a wicked recoil with heavy loads, do a night fire and watch for breach flashing.  If it happens, you have way too much gas!  Too much breach flashing/overgassing will tear the crap out of your timing lug on the bolt, and also tear up the channel on the carrier.

[patriot 7,197]

The Saiga12 is the softest recoiling shotty I own! Mine's a Tromix with one of Tony's breacher brakes on it.

[jdtravers 637]

 

Thanks Guys,Here's what I have done to it thus far. I custom ordered a compression spring for the stock and milled out two 2-inch slots in the collapsible stock to give it two length adjustments with a travel of 2 inches upon firing. This is a 14 pound spring, i also have a 9 and a 20 pound spring for it, The gas system is a 6 slot so I shouldn't have to worry about cycling issues, if I do I will port that out as well, I polished the trigger and buffered the backplate to take some pressure off it, also i ordered a recoil spring that is 2 pounds stiffer than the stock one and the chambering is definitely noticeably better. It's definitely a work in progress and I have some other ideas I'm throwing around before I try them.

 

What is the spring rate for your recoil spring? I've been trying to figure out what the OEM recoil spring rate is, since on of mine seems to be getting old. Also, how did you determine spring rate?

 

16# seems to be the average.  I have a spring rate tester that I built to check the springs prior to installation.

 

Jack

[gunfun 3,931]

Thanks very much. I guess I'll be sending money to Wolff shortly unless you have a better suggestion.

[perzentkar 0]

I have a few suggestions, Use a .45 acp 1911 recoil spring, use hooks physics laws to determine the amount of pressure you want to relieve from the recoil and then measure and cut accordingly. Sunday is the test, the spring constant that mine has is 279, that is a lot, i had to place a washer in the recoil pad and loctite everything on as well as epoxy an extra layer, I see another spot in the action that i can place another buffer or compression spring, I will be testing all of my designs and work on sunday and posting pictures as soon as I test it and fine tune it. Any questions just ask.

[perzentkar 0]

Well, worked amazingly, don't have any pictures but it was a dream. Had less recoil than a 20 gauge with birdshot, even when I put slugs through it and compared the two, The vote was unanimous that I had the lightest recoil shotgun there and I did an amazing job with it. I'm not going to change a thing on it. Needless to say I am quite proud of it.

[Terminator03 18]

Well, worked amazingly, don't have any pictures but it was a dream. Had less recoil than a 20 gauge with birdshot, even when I put slugs through it and compared the two, The vote was unanimous that I had the lightest recoil shotgun there and I did an amazing job with it. I'm not going to change a thing on it. Needless to say I am quite proud of it.

 

Wow, I forgot about this topic and missed your posts, but this has me intrigued. Pictures of what you did with descriptions would be awesome if you don't mind taking the time.