My first auto shotty and gunsmith build

[Billybobf 50]

Just picked up a saiga 12 and ten round drum for $720 total.

. I have access to a machine shop where I will probably make it 922r compliant in sport and non sport dress. Reason; I have family in California (bullet button and a legal mag)

 

Plans:

Auction said 20" barrel. No clue but I bought a scrap barrel that I might machine as a compliant part if I can! Have a grizzly gun lathe at work so sounds like fun!

 

Same thing with gas block, gas piston, gas valve, trigger parts, I will make my own, forearm and stock I'm not sure but probably won't be stock as my boss does awesome wood work.

Will read lots on here and will take lots of pictures! Oh yeah lots of questions!!!

Pictures of every angle of every part as I haven't been able to find anything easy. Just bought a cheap barrel "blank" that I plan on machining IF there is enough material to do it (or if material can be added safely to do it)

Plan is to be able to run the hottest 3" loads for whatever and to be able to run cheap birdshot for massive clay destruction!

Local hunting areas include a lot of shotgun only!

 

I plan on a 45* offset scope and open sights up top. I also have a cheap laser I might throw on it.

Last but not least: coyotes are a problem in the shotgun only area! I will have a 20 round drum or possibly a custom build 30rd.

I've got my fire gear on so bring on the flames!!!

That or keep them to yourself!

It's elk season now so shotgun anything is second to all! Guns here on Friday, its also closing day so might not pick it up til Monday!

[Shandlanos 1,470]

10 round drum?

[jdtravers 637]

Small ProMag was/is a 10 rounder.

 

Jack

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Didn't know that - I thought it was 12 rounds.

[gunfun 3,931]

They offer it in either 10 or 12. The shell is the same size. Remember, some states won't allow 12. MD at least used to offer 10 round versions of the MD 20 too. That would just be depressing to me.

[Aram Fingal 11]

They offer it in either 10 or 12. The shell is the same size. Remember, some states won't allow 12. MD at least used to offer 10 round versions of the MD 20 too. That would just be depressing to me.

 

You think that's bad?  They make a 10 round version of the drum for the Tommy Gun.  When I first saw info on it, I thought it was a joke.  But it's real...

 

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/Long-Gun-Magazines/Thompson-T12BKT-10-Round-Drum-Magazine.asp

[Billybobf 50]

Holy off topic batman??? Yes they make 10rd drums

 

I figure I'd keep it loaded with coyote shot. Won't get flat spots?

And since I'm here and you are all reading this,

I might want a longer barrel? Can barrels from two s12s be swapped without too much work?

If I have a 19" barrel and someone else has a 24" barrel could we trade fairly easy? Then they would have threaded short barrel? I wouldn't even care I mine was threaded, just not super short maybe?

[lbsrdi 1,078]

Not easily.

[Billybobf 50]

Guessing between pin locations and angles of both receiver and gas block, port location, barrel diameter at receiver and gas block, would these have a headspace concern? I would think not but I guess depending on how the lugs lock to the barrel or receiver there is potential. Sorry don't have a gas operated gun as of yet. Bolt guns auto guns, pumps shotguns. Blowback pistols, and locked breach pistols. So, don't know how headspace on an ak shotgun platform works. I can make my own heavy barrel out of chromoly for all I care! 30 inches long with six small ports. I could ream out the receiver and machine my own gas block, but it sounds like a lot of work for what I want. Maybe I will make a stainless barrel

If I break something I will fix it. As long as I learn something from it nothing was wasted!

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Guessing between pin locations and angles of both receiver and gas block, port location, barrel diameter at receiver and gas block, would these have a headspace concern? I would think not but I guess depending on how the lugs lock to the barrel or receiver there is potential. Sorry don't have a gas operated gun as of yet. Bolt guns auto guns, pumps shotguns. Blowback pistols, and locked breach pistols. So, don't know how headspace on an ak shotgun platform works. I can make my own heavy barrel out of chromoly for all I care! 30 inches long with six small ports. I could ream out the receiver and machine my own gas block, but it sounds like a lot of work for what I want. Maybe I will make a stainless barrel

If I break something I will fix it. As long as I learn something from it nothing was wasted!

Switching out a barrel on any AK is a pain in the ass. They are pressed and pinned in, except on some milled receivers where the barrel is threaded and pinned.

 

Between the cost of obtaining a longer barrel and having it installed, then having the new barrel refinished (which usually means just having the whole shotgun refinished), you might be better off purchasing an entire new Saiga-12 with a longer barrel. They're still imported in a 24" configuration.

[gunfun 3,931]

There is at least one company selling S12 barrels in the white for $250. It would be crazy to attempt to make one when they are available.

[beefcakeb99 572]

If you have the knowhow and patience, with the right tool you can do anything. I say give it a shot. Lots of guys out there manufacture their own parts and custom guns. Good luck, but maybe you should start just running it and playing around with configuration and getting it comfortable before you go full bore. No pun intended.

Edited November 19, 2013 by beefcakeb0

[Sdustin 578]

Just trade entire shotguns with your friend thats....... better endowed. Chough.

[Billybobf 50]

Trust me, I won't alter stock parts aside from porting and polishing (wait am I working on a cylinder head or a gun?)

 

If I make a barrel it will be for the experience, I'm not new to any form of machine work. Just new to doing it on a gun. I've built $10k 350 Chevy motors for customers I think I can work on a gun.

I've done some work on my 10/22, bolt polishing, sear and hammer work for a better trigger pull. Stuff like that.

And I don't need a longer barrel but might someday I won't change it right away that for sure

[pedal2alloy 206]

Sounds like you'll be able to make what ever you need, but barrels are tricky.  If the material can't tolerate the explosive pressures that it is subjected to, it could be fatal.  Keep in mind that the S12 barrel is actually hammer forged.

[Terminator03 18]

Sounds like you'll be able to make what ever you need, but barrels are tricky.  If the material can't tolerate the explosive pressures that it is subjected to, it could be fatal.  Keep in mind that the S12 barrel is actually hammer forged.

 

I agree with this. You really need to be careful with barrels. I have a machine shop at home and have been designing and machining my entire life, but wouldn't bother with a barrel when they are readily available. Beside the fact that they are hammer forged, they are also chrome lined. How is it you plan to do that?

[Sdustin 578]

Who needs chrome if its stainless?

[Nephilim7 107]

Trust me, I won't alter stock parts aside from porting and polishing (wait am I working on a cylinder head or a gun?)

 

If I make a barrel it will be for the experience, I'm not new to any form of machine work. Just new to doing it on a gun. I've built $10k 350 Chevy motors for customers I think I can work on a gun.  -  SOOOO not the same thing.  Take a good few pictures of your face for future reconstructive surgery.  This is the kind of attitude that can get you kilt...

I've done some work on my 10/22, bolt polishing, sear and hammer work for a better trigger pull. Stuff like that.  -  Straight blowback rimfire is not even close to the same principles at work in the Saiga mechanism.  They are simple and fun to tinker with though.

 

And I don't need a longer barrel but might someday I won't change it right away that for sure  -  Why would you need a longer barrel?  It is known that the velocity difference between a 12" barrel and a 28" barrel 12ga. is around 100fps.  Longer barrel adds weight for swingability; So does a CHAOS rail.  A longer barrel helps with sighting for shooting, except these guns have a gas tube to look down where most shotties have the barrel.  The only use for a longer barrel I can think of is to multiply the effectiveness of one of the handfull of effective compensators.

 

Not to be rude, but read up on these things and consult a few proffessionals before attempting a barrel.  One mistake could be your last.  Pick something else and stop making us nervous!

 

Good luck with the hunting! 

[gunfun 3,931]

The 100 FPS boost for a broomhandle is an argument against long barrels, not for them.

 

Besides, there is a much more weight efficient way to gain  that velocity. it is also a lot more cost efficient, labor efficient, and keeps your gun from becoming large and cumbersome. A tidy S12 is about 7.5 lbs i.e. about what is considered to be the ideal swing weight. (A browning Citori weighs the same depending on which version.)

Carry about 15 grains more powder in your magazine. No length gain, less than an ounce of weight gain. If you are loading, less than a dime of cost gain. Hint, most people are running ammo that is loaded way below max specs. You can easily buy or load much hotter ammo if you want more velocity. Adding a foot or so of barrel is a common but nonsensical way to achieve that. It's based on tradition, not present ability. It used to matter when powders were all slow, and barrels were weak, that if you wanted velocity at a safe pressure you needed a long barrel. It isn't 1930 anymore but groupthink is stuck there. This brings the absurdity of a guy running a long barrel for velocity and reduced recoil ammo...

Edited November 21, 2013 by GunFun

[Billybobf 50]

The 100 FPS boost for a broomhandle is an argument against long barrels, not for them.

 

Besides, there is a much more weight efficient way to gain that velocity. it is also a lot more cost efficient, labor efficient, and keeps your gun from becoming large and cumbersome. A tidy S12 is about 7.5 lbs i.e. about what is considered to be the ideal swing weight. (A browning Citori weighs the same depending on which version.)

Carry about 15 grains more powder in your magazine. No length gain, less than an ounce of weight gain. If you are loading, less than a dime of cost gain. Hint, most people are running ammo that is loaded way below max specs. You can easily buy or load much hotter ammo if you want more velocity. Adding a foot or so of barrel is a common but nonsensical way to achieve that. It's based on tradition, not present ability. It used to matter when powders were all slow, and barrels were weak, that if you wanted velocity at a safe pressure you needed a long barrel. It isn't 1930 anymore but groupthink is stuck there. This brings the absurdity of a guy running a long barrel for velocity and reduced recoil ammo...

Once again I love this forum,

No flames just facts,

So better powder means no need except aim. And gas system is in the way to aim, how about rifled slug accuracy?

 

Also don't worry about my face, like I said I look plenty before I leap and look better and longer before I try to control an explosion 2" from my face. Just the same I've shot a maverick 88 many times with magnum loads, plane Jane blued steel shotgun barrel made in Mexico. They even make it in a 3.5" magnum chamber. Chrome lined is for wear resistance not strength. Material I would use is chromoly made in the USA, or a pre chambered barrel, depending on how the fit would work.

I completely understand that guns and engines are not the same, but keep in mind the explosive forces my engine converts into usable rotating power, yours just has to direct it down a barrel. Mane has to handle heat.... Oh wait this is an ak, it might get hot! Lol sorry some humor.

On that note, the point of all this is to get feedback first, before I do anything. Maybe I will carefully blow up my maverick with a home made barrel before I try it on my saiga!

That being said, a hammer forged low grade steel with a chrome plate vs a high grade chromoly steel that's been formed over a mandrel.

[gunfun 3,931]

I'm not sure what you mean by gas system. I am just saying that if you want more velocity, feed it hotter ammo. That could be from more powder, or different powder, or  a lighter shot load.... There's lots of ways to change a load to get more velocity. The easiest is probably just to by expensive ammo. Remington now sells a shell that uses hi-lo technology to create insane velocity. It ain't cheap, but if you hate your shoulder it's currently the fastest. (Best is another question)

 

 

Slug accuracy is also mostly effected by ammo choice and choke selection. Barrel length has no effect whatsoever. People feel like a longer barrel must make something go "straighter", but that ignores simple physics. Something moving moves a long a vector at a certain velocity. There is no moving more on a vector or less on a vector, so holding  it on track is irrelevant once an object is moving in a certain direction. Accuracy is obtained by reducing things that might push the object off of the intended vector, such as uneven breach, unbalanced projectile, etc. For rifles, length is chosen for powder burn, harmonics, and to accommodate matching a projectile to a twist rate. With a smoothbore shotgun those are all irrelevant or minimal. So a 2" barrel and a 36 inch barrel stabilize the same, so all you need is  a length that burns a consistent amount of the powder. Most shells have released almost all of the powder in the first 12" of the barrel, with only a few percent left.

 

For shot loads whether birdshot or buck, pattern also ignores barrel length. That is completely dependent on two things. 1 Shell: Shotcup design long with  shot hardness and any buffer and 2 Choke design. Not necessarily in that order. You can put the same choke on a short barrel or a long one. The principles of choke design have been worked out since about the 1860s, although some newer wad designs can benefit from minor alterations. Lot's of marketing goes into telling you that someone has something new and better. Lot's of data from some very diligent nerds shows it to be hype. ChuckHawks website has some pretty good technical articles on the topic.

 

Longer barrels do offer a longer sight plane on most guns, but with an S12 you would have to get a different front sight post to get that advantage. Also if you have spent years learning to handle the balance and swing of a long barrel, anything that feels different will throw you off. No harm in keeping your feel consistent. And if you feel more confident with something, you tend to shoot more relaxed, and therefore hit better. It's a legitimate reason to choose a long barrel.

 

That said, here's a more opinion based thought, the S12 is going to feel different from your grandad's wingmaster no matter how you have it set up, so you may as well learn the feel of a more compact package. I've spent more range time on the S12 than other shotguns now, so I have to unlearn S12 to shoot them well. If you are an olympic trap shooter, you will probably hate a saiga, and it will throw off all that training you invested in.  Choose a stock that gives you a good natural cheek weld looking down the top of the receiver and gas tube, and limit the other stuff you hang on your gun. You'll shoot much better if you have a good mount. That will probably make a bigger difference than most of the gizmos people buy. The one that fits me, might be horrible for you. It is completely personal.

 

 

In my opinion, it would be foolish to attempt to make a barrel completely from scratch. You probably don't have the means to pressure test it. They sell raw barrels now for $250, and you probably couldn't build one for less than that in machine time, assuming you have access to a mill and lathe. There would be a great deal of work just figuring out all the critical dimensions in the geometry of the barrel hood and the provisions for the locking lugs. Further, even the pros start with commercially made barrel blanks and machine the profile down and add the features which mate with the front trunion. Those affect timing, headspace, and a lot of other things, so they are really only for people with all the tools and a lot of experience with the platform to mess with. 

[Billybobf 50]

Only shot one auto shotty, otherwise cheap mossberg 500 replicas

[gunfun 3,931]

Get an S12 and shoot it a while, then pick out all your mods before you buy any. Buy once, buy quality, be done.

 

Scroll through the whole picture thread, and note down every piece you like. Then ask yourself for each piece whether you want it for style or function and whether the cost and weight are worth it. Then get what you want and shoot it a lot. Don't take on any difficult projects beyond basic conversion until you are very familiar with how the gun works, and have used it long enough to be sure you will still want those features. Some of the nicest S12s are the simplest.

 

A good buttpad on a comfortable stock, a good trigger, a pistol grip, a few mags and maybe a choke or comp could be all you end up wanting. If you shoot that for a while and still want a quad, then go for it. I'm betting you will be drooling over short barrels rather than long barrels after you get used to the gun.

[Terminator03 18]

Get an S12 and shoot it a while, then pick out all your mods before you buy any. Buy once, buy quality, be done.

 

Scroll through the whole picture thread, and note down every piece you like. Then ask yourself for each piece whether you want it for style or function and whether the cost and weight are worth it. Then get what you want and shoot it a lot. Don't take on any difficult projects beyond basic conversion until you are very familiar with how the gun works, and have used it long enough to be sure you will still want those features. Some of the nicest S12s are the simplest.

 

A good buttpad on a comfortable stock, a good trigger, a pistol grip, a few mags and maybe a choke or comp could be all you end up wanting. If you shoot that for a while and still want a quad, then go for it. I'm betting you will be drooling over short barrels rather than long barrels after you get used to the gun.

 

Excellent summary, and very sound advice!

[Billybobf 50]

Agreed! Only thing I need is to be able to run cheap loads including Remington gun club and federal top gun. This gun will see some clay action for sure.

Only other thought/question. This seems to be a common grey area. My ten round drum in a stock saiga sporter, is it legal? I believe the mag is US made but not sure. So how many other parts and preferably cheap ones do I need to/can I change? Gas piston for sure, can I change trigger parts on the sporter and still use those parts if I convert? Let me know please

[gunfun 3,931]

Nope. Not legal.

if it holds more than 5, you have to have less than 10 imported parts on the list.

You could get away with just replacing the puck and forend with that mag, but you really do want to restore to pistol grip format while you do the 922r compliance conversion. 

 

Gunwiki: 922® Worksheet for Saiga Shotguns if you are unsure about the concept, here is a discussion that some people found helped to understand legal compliance. Am I 922r safe ? Apples Analogy

[Billybobf 50]

Ok so puck an forend makes me legal with hi cap us mag and still legal with factory five round as there is no "evil" ad ons otherwise.

 

Once again, as promised this thread will contain all my questions long before any work is done!

I shoot in California where pistol grips are illegal, sporting buttstock will always have to be able to be used. I may convert later but not right now. Just make legal to shoot the drum.

Best total price for puck and forend? Can I just make my own puck and forend? Lathe for puck and hand tools or whatever for a rough forend?

 

Or wrap the gun in seran wrap and form fit j.b. weld forend? Omg I just said J.b. weld on a gun forum, banned for life!

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Ok so puck an forend makes me legal with hi cap us mag and still legal with factory five round as there is no "evil" ad ons otherwise.

 

Once again, as promised this thread will contain all my questions long before any work is done!

I shoot in California where pistol grips are illegal, sporting buttstock will always have to be able to be used. I may convert later but not right now. Just make legal to shoot the drum.

Best total price for puck and forend? Can I just make my own puck and forend? Lathe for puck and hand tools or whatever for a rough forend?

 

Or wrap the gun in seran wrap and form fit j.b. weld forend? Omg I just said J.b. weld on a gun forum, banned for life!

Not worth it to make your own puck (which should be a precision-machined product made of damned good steel), when you can buy a perfectly competent Tapco puck for about $10. You could make your own handguard, I suppose - or buy one of the many on the market at various price points. Some are meant for AK rifles and require the purchase of a lower handguard retainer, some just plug and play natively with a single screw and no tomfoolery.

[Billybobf 50]

I've got access to good quality steel and can hold the tolerance needed (can make another if the first one isn't right.

$10 plus shipping for the tapco, or make one that I'm proud if

[Sdustin 578]

Nithibg wrong with JB weld I used it on my s308 to old the old trigger guard in place in the correct position, I fired it many times. I have now tig welded it but I had to wait to weld it till I got to the shop but since I had everything to convert it I was like a kid on Christmas and had to have it finished.