Next rifle: Arsenal or Sig?

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Weren't we talking about rifles? 

[DLT 1,646]

Whenever I have a new customer ask me why he should get an AK over another kind of rifle, I like to show them this video.  You have probably already seen it, but it's worth re-watching sometimes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvrG4T2K4sE

Edited November 27, 2013 by DLT

[Voltia 375]

Not sure I agree with that. Sure, the AK is a great gun for the standard soldier, but Americans have never been standard.

 

What caused the British Army to break ranks and run at the start of our Revolution? Answer me that, and you learn

the AK is not the best rifle out there.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Voltia

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Meh, in that list besides the AK I own a FAL and an Mauser 98k. Best is subjective, depending on time, place, and condition. If I had nothing else I would use the Mauser, but we all know it isn't well suited for 21st century conflicts...

 

Back to possible purchase talk, if .308 wasn't so damn expensive I would buy the PTR GI G3 clone. I see it has dropped all the way back down to it's pre-panic price of $899. During the scare they jacked the price up to over a grand for that rifle...

[Arik 565]

Not sure I agree with that. Sure, the AK is a great gun for the standard soldier, but Americans have never been standard.

 

What caused the British Army to break ranks and run at the start of our Revolution? Answer me that, and you learn

the AK is not the best rifle out there.

At the start of the revolution? Exaggerating much?

[Voltia 375]

You may wish to look up the Battle of Concord, where, on the North Bridge, 500 Militia men caused

three companies of the King's Men to BREAK AND RUN due to withering, accurate fire. This was on the

first day of the war, with the battles of Lexington and Concord. The entire British Army presence in the area

then retreated under fire to Boston where they would be under the guns of the British ships in the harbor.

Then, reinforcements arrived and a war for 8 years started.

 

Of course, if you had one of these, you'd know this already, and be a decent shot as well.

 

 

Have a nice night.

[DLT 1,646]

Well I kind of already knew the part of accurate fire and the British turning tail, and you are right, I don't have one of those patches.  But my experience has taught me that accuracy is more the shooter than the rifle.  I've hit steel out to 600 yards using an Arsenal SGL with open sights.  On that occasion, only one other shooter in the range using a 6.8 AR was able to repeat that.  

[dustindu4 101]

I have a 556 patrol and a 522 classic. Hands down the best guns I own.

[thebuns1 4,323]

For a 308, I want the strait cut Vepr, but I really like the Sig 716 and the offering from Colt.

[XD45 7,124]

I don't have that patch.  Don't even know what it is.  I do have this:

 

 

But throwing around patches and badges doesn't make your opinion more right.  

 

For a fighting rifle I must have:

 

Acceptable accuracy.

Acceptable power.

Absolute reliability.

 

The AK platform has acceptable accuracy with optical sights.

The 7.62x39 has acceptable power.

The AK platform has absolute reliability.

 

Is it the "best"?  Oh, please, lets beat that dead horse some more...    

[poolingmyignorance 2,191]

If there was a "BEST" everybody would be able to see it clearly, and there would be little need for anything else. Opinions, are like assholes we all have them and they all stink. Except mine, it's the best, and your all ignorant if you don't agree. I'm sure you all under stand.

[Big John! 2,062]

I don't have that patch.  Don't even know what it is.  I do have this:

 

7th award.JPG

 

But throwing around patches and badges doesn't make your opinion more right.  

 

For a fighting rifle I must have:

 

Acceptable accuracy.

Acceptable power.

Absolute reliability.

 

The AK platform has acceptable accuracy with optical sights.

The 7.62x39 has acceptable power.

The AK platform has absolute reliability.

 

Is it the "best"?  Oh, please, lets beat that dead horse some more...    

Darth,  Does that medal mean you came in 7th?  Is it a military medal?  Not being a dick.  Curious.

[Voltia 375]

I believe it is the 7th time he qualified expert, and that is the either the Army or the Corps.

 

What I put up was the rifleman's patch of Appleseed, and I put it up more for the history that

that program teaches, more than the marksmanship, which is a scaled down version of

the Army Qualification Test, which I don't think the Army uses any more.

 

Appleseed is a great program, and it's good for women and kids in addition to men. You shoot

about a brick of 22 in a weekend and learn all about the American Revolution. The north bridge

battle is very prominent in the Appleseed histories.

 

My point of all that, before Arik decided to try to light my shit up for the second time in one thread,

is that Americans, from day 1, have always fought with accurate weapons. The AK, in standard form,

does not lend itself to accuracy due to large clearances, and wide tolerances, which are the very properties

that make it so reliable.

 

The common belief is that the more accurate a rifle is, the more picky and prone to malfunction it is, so people

say they want reliability over accuracy. I disagree with the statement. I think it is possible to have an accurate,

rugged rifle.

 

My qualifications for a rifle are absolute accuracy, good stopping power, and absolute reliability with proper maintenance.

For a non-optics rifle, that's the M14, in spades.

[Big John! 2,062]

I believe it is the 7th time he qualified expert, and that is the either the Army or the Corps.

 

What I put up was the rifleman's patch of Appleseed, and I put it up more for the history that

that program teaches, more than the marksmanship, which is a scaled down version of

the Army Qualification Test, which I don't think the Army uses any more.

 

Appleseed is a great program, and it's good for women and kids in addition to men. You shoot

about a brick of 22 in a weekend and learn all about the American Revolution. The north bridge

battle is very prominent in the Appleseed histories.

 

My point of all that, before Arik decided to try to light my shit up for the second time in one thread,

is that Americans, from day 1, have always fought with accurate weapons. The AK, in standard form,

does not lend itself to accuracy due to large clearances, and wide tolerances, which are the very properties

that make it so reliable.

 

The common belief is that the more accurate a rifle is, the more picky and prone to malfunction it is, so people

say they want reliability over accuracy. I disagree with the statement. I think it is possible to have an accurate,

rugged rifle.

 

My qualifications for a rifle are absolute accuracy, good stopping power, and absolute reliability with proper maintenance.

For a non-optics rifle, that's the M14, in spades.

Thanks for the info.  Darth is a fucking badass then.

[XD45 7,124]

Yes 7 times qualified Expert in the Corps.

 

Not a badass.  Just learned and applied the fundamentals.  Proper stance.  Proper grip.  Sight alignment.  Sight picture.  Trigger control.  Breath control.

 

Nothing to it when shooting at paper that doesn't shoot back.

 

I'll reserve "badass" for the guys who did it with bullets and rpgs coming back.

Edited November 28, 2013 by Darth Saigus

[mancat 2,368]

Voltia I can smack fist sized rocks at 200yd using iron sights on my shitty loose WASR.. Why should I care whether or not it can pass an Appleseed course? Do you want to stand within 500 yards of the average AK being run by an experienced AK shooter?

[Voltia 375]

Again, the reason I mentioned it was mainly for the revolutionary war history.

 

You don't need to take that AK to Appleseed. The program is for you, not your weapon.

 

Converting your singular targeting nomenclature to standard, a fist sized rock is about

4 inches around and if you're shooting it at 200 yards, that means you say you are shooting

2 MOA groups, which is far above the nominal 4 to 6 MOA the general consensus seems to

have that a standard condition AK has. However, I'll take you at your word.

 

Shooting man sized targets at 500 yards, and I mean hitting them somewhere, requires about

4 MOA shooting from the combined shooter and rifle. Not really sure what you mean by

"running an AK." Just standing there shooting at something 500 yards away would not worry me

too much. If he were slung up and prone, I'd be concerned. I don't particularly want to be shot

at by anyone, but, if I had to be shot at from 500 yards away with an AK, I've got a sub MOA .308

made by the Belgians that I'd like to use for returning fire.

 

I think the AK is a wonderful weapon. I also think there are better ones out there.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I feel the AK can out perform most shooters. But with that said, there are always options that can do other things better, but to be as well balanced across all categories like the AK is, will be hard to match.

I disagree about the 4moa statement, as the weapons are more than capable of engaging targets at that range. Especially with a experienced AK shooter.

[Voltia 375]

I didn't say they weren't. What I said was you weren't going to do it offhand.

[Garys4598 1,065]

Would also consider the PTR-32, but those seem to be as common right now as dinosaur eggs.

Not exactly true.  There is one available for purchase off gunbroker right now for just over $1.2K which comes with 10 appropriate Bulgarian magazines.  Here's the sales link:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=378637918  I saw another one on sale there just two days ago, but apparently it's now gone.

 

Anyway, I can't say enough good things regarding the PTR-32 that I own; most accurate 7.62x39mm rifle I've ever fired.  It's only negative is that its heavy.

.

.

[HighPlainsDrifter 466]

I can't add to the discussion of which is better, but can't you SBR the SLR107-FR and turn it into a AK-104?  Someone chime in if I'm incorrect, but that thought alone makes me think about purchasing one myself.

 

[Arik 565]

Off hand, 400 yards, 5.45, open sights, Russian surplus

 

 

 

 

 

AK47 off hand, wolf 122gr fmj 200 yards

 

Edited November 29, 2013 by Arik

[Voltia 375]

Impressive. By offhand, do you mean off-bench or standing? I use the term offhand to mean standing, myself.

 

Would you mind commenting about the quality of the rifles?

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Hey Arik, where is that at? Looks to pretty to be near Philly! LOL!

 

Would also consider the PTR-32, but those seem to be as common right now as dinosaur eggs.

Not exactly true.  There is one available for purchase off gunbroker right now for just over $1.2K which comes with 10 appropriate Bulgarian magazines.  Here's the sales link:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=378637918  I saw another one on sale there just two days ago, but apparently it's now gone.

 

Anyway, I can't say enough good things regarding the PTR-32 that I own; most accurate 7.62x39mm rifle I've ever fired.  It's only negative is that its heavy.

.

.

 

Gary - Is it finicky about the mags you use in it?

[DLT 1,646]

You know what, it's very simple.  You want rugged, reliable, dependable, and accurate?  Get a Mosin.  

[Jpanzer 1,265]

You know what, it's very simple.  You want rugged, reliable, dependable, and accurate?  Get a Mosin.  

Using your criteria a 2x4 would work too.... 

[DLT 1,646]

 

You know what, it's very simple.  You want rugged, reliable, dependable, and accurate?  Get a Mosin.  

Using your criteria a 2x4 would work too.... 

 

The stock of my Mosin basically  is a 2 x 4!  And the sights go out to 2000 meters!  Neither the Sig or Arsenal can do that!!

[sunnybean 939]

I can't add to the discussion of which is better, but can't you SBR the SLR107-FR and turn it into a AK-104?  Someone chime in if I'm incorrect, but that thought alone makes me think about purchasing one myself.

 

You'd be better off buying a SLR-107CR if you want to make AK-104 SBR.

[Garys4598 1,065]

Hey Arik, where is that at? Looks to pretty to be near Philly! LOL!

 

Would also consider the PTR-32, but those seem to be as common right now as dinosaur eggs.

Not exactly true.  There is one available for purchase off gunbroker right now for just over $1.2K which comes with 10 appropriate Bulgarian magazines.  Here's the sales link:  http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=378637918  I saw another one on sale there just two days ago, but apparently it's now gone.

 

Anyway, I can't say enough good things regarding the PTR-32 that I own; most accurate 7.62x39mm rifle I've ever fired.  It's only negative is that its heavy.

.

.

 

Gary - Is it finicky about the mags you use in it?

Before purchasing my PTR, I had read some bloggers' and other firearms forum members feedback that yes, the PTR-32 can be finicky regarding what magazines are used.  Which is why I stuck with the manufacturer's recommendation of Bulgarian flat-side (or whatever) magazines.  I've never experienced a mag issue using them.

 

.

.

[Big John! 2,062]

Yes 7 times qualified Expert in the Corps.

 

Not a badass.  Just learned and applied the fundamentals.  Proper stance.  Proper grip.  Sight alignment.  Sight picture.  Trigger control.  Breath control.

 

Nothing to it when shooting at paper that doesn't shoot back.

 

I'll reserve "badass" for the guys who did it with bullets and rpgs coming back.

I'll still give you badass status for earning this medal Darth.  I'll reserve HERO for the guys doing it while bullets are coming back.