JESS1344 508 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) GUYS, FYI... JESS1344 ATF classification compromise to redefine sporting use, ban certain ammo imports The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives’ classification of pistol grip only firearms with 14” barrels that fire shotgun shells and are over 26” in overall length as neither “shotguns” nor National Firearms Act “Destructive Devices” or “Any Other Weapons” has created a situation wherein the agency must either quietly save face or have it exposed that untold numbers of good faith gun owners currently legally possess firearms problematic for the government to allow. In order for that status quo to continue, ATF, in conjunction with certain members of Congress and lobbying interests, is working at “tweaking” its definition of the arbitrary “sporting use” term, insider sources tell Gun Rights Examiner. And with that will come a push to expand definitions to allow for further importation bans on certain types of presently legal ammunition. While many of the details of the deal being worked on are sketchy, informed sources are of the opinion that the “tradeoff” is a backroom effort that includes undisclosed “bipartisan” members of Congress, ATF acting on behalf of itself, the Department of Justice and the administration, and firearms lobbyists who have traditionally been part of the behind-the-scenes development, if not outright “ghostwriting” of classifications and rules affecting the industry and gun owners. This is hardly the first time ATF has found itself needing to reverse prior decisions. The entire Heller Foundation-supported machine gun case currently making its way through the courts was set up by the Bureau first ruling that NFA trusts are not “persons” as defined by law, and were therefore eligible to manufacture and possess post-1986 machine guns typically reserved for military, law enforcement and properly licensed members of the firearms industry. They changed their minds and demanded their tax stamp back despite no statutory provision for doing that. And with the current state of disorganization and unknown numbers of contradictory decisions, further disconnects where band aid “solutions” are applied will be practically guaranteed, as a recent ATF industry circular demonstrates. “Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked,” ATF’s Firearms Technology Branch declared in its “Open letter on the redesign of ‘stabilizing braces.’” This is tacit admission that conflicting classifications and rulings force firearms makers and owners to face decisions that could land them in life-altering trouble. This reaffirms that ATF only gets around to addressing those conflicts on a haphazard and sporadic basis when individual circumstances bring them to the fore. The scope of that problem is unknown, but quite possibly massive and severe, as a 2005 Congressional Research Services report concedes. “It is significant to note that ATF regulations, rulings and classifications are based upon the agency’s best interpretation of current law and reported case law,” the report observes. “As such, ATF determinations are subject to the Administrative Procedures Act and can be challenged in federal court, after all other administrative remedies have been exhausted.” “According to ATF, the agency has over 300 cubic feet of classification letters stored in file cabinets,” the report elaborates. As noted in my latest GUNS Magazine “Rights Watch” column, none of these have been scanned into a searchable database so that consistency of interpretations can be assured and conflicts identified and resolved. As that report was published 10 years ago, the thought of what it must look like today evokes nothing so much as the government warehouse at the end of “Raiders of the Lost Ark.” As an aside, the APA requirement was directly contradicted by ATF in its aborted (for now) attempt to seek a ban on “green tip” ammo using a “sporting purposes” rationale. As first reported in this column, the Bureau’s Enforcement Programs and Services spokesperson maintained its proposal was merely a “framework” and would “not actually be a [regulatory] change, more of a policy along those lines.” This morning, citizen journalist and blogger Mike Vanderboegh, who first reported on allegations at the CleanUpATF whistleblower website that Operation Fast and Furious weapons were involved in the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, will be attending various seminars at the National Rifle Association’s annual meeting in Nashville. He’ll be asking questions to include if NRA knows anything about a “sporting use” tweak and a potential specialized ammo import ban. His findings will be posted on the Sipsey Street Irregulars blog when he makes his report from the convention press room. With this level of uncertainty, it’s always a judgment call on whether or not it’s too early to issue a report. Admittedly, there’s always a risk involved in doing so, especially with issues capable of generating a lot of passion, and particularly to the credibility of anyone who stirs people up for no good reason. The decision to file this one was made after consultation with knowledgeable insider sources who have a track record of professional accomplishments and of providing reliable information that has borne out in the past. On the “to do” list at this writing will be efforts to determine the exact scope, nature and language of the proposed changes alleged to be in development, and to identify all parties involved, including members of Congress who reportedly have commissioned a research and feasibility study, as well as any lobbyists who may be helping steer the process. Whether that can be accomplished is unknown, as cooperation on the part of people being asked questions is not a given. Perhaps inferences will need to be made based on “No comment” replies, or outright denials. Regardless, three clear points remain valid and ought to be priorities for advocates of the right to keep and bear arms no matter how this story shakes out. First and foremost, the entire concept of “sporting purposes” is not only arbitrary, in addition to having documented 1938 German law origins, it is offensive to the core purpose behind the Second Amendment. It is past time members of Congress who have enjoyed gun owner endorsements and contributions acknowledged that and worked to eliminate it as a criterion -- and that’s something those GOP presidential candidates vying for NRA member support at this weekend’s annual meeting leadership forum could make a point of pledging to sign if elected. Second, it must be made more than clear that no “tradeoffs” or “compromises” on any kind of ammunition are acceptable. Marginalizing hobbyists and enthusiasts like those who fire off tracers at Knob Creek and throwing them under the bus is unacceptable, and part of a “divide and conquer” strategy that all gun owners must stand fast against and refuse to cede ground to. As seen every time the gun-grabbers advance, far from being satisfied, they always use their new position of advantage from which to launch their next deeper incursion. Third, and this is something well within the powers of Congress to require, this business of 300 cubic feet of files, or whatever it is 10 years after that report was made, is unacceptable, and lends itself to further disastrous reversals with gun owners paying the price for ATF’s disorganized laziness. It’s like something we would expect from a police station in a Third World country, not from the government of the United States. Those files need to be scanned and placed in a searchable data base accessible to all, and then audited for consistency, with contradictory classifications and rulings identified and openly resolved with public input and Congressional oversight. This column and Sipsey Street Irregulars will continue to monitor and report on developments. Suggested Links ATF temporarily shelves proposed ammo ban while power to proceed remains intact Heller Foundation raising funds for machine gun lawsuit ATF testimony admits many unregistered machine guns allowed by ruling ATF claims Administrative Procedures Act exemption for proposed ammo ban notice ATF proposes expanding ammo bans using law enforcement protection rationale Edited April 12, 2015 by JESS1344 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 That made my head hurt. The fact that the ATF is looking for a "compromise" where they "give" a little here and "get" a little there clearly demonstrates that the ATF has an agenda to disarm us. If they were only interested in enforcing the law fairly then they would act on each case on it's own merit. To "trade" certain configurations of firearm for banning import of certain ammunition is ludicrous beyond words. The two are utterly unconnected. This would be like a cop who pulls you over for speeding when in fact you were not speeding offering to write you for disturbing the peace instead as a "compromise". 9 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 As stated in the "Grassley letter" addressing the ammo ban, the ATF has no legal authority to determine "sporting use" of guns or the reclassification of ammo at all. Why is there any need for a compromise? 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 This defining shit as Sporting Use, just like the term Assualt, is utter bullshit. The 2A has zero to do with sporting anything. Up next they'll start targeting stuff for banning as anything Tactical. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JESS1344 508 Posted April 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 CHILE, SSSSSSSHHHHHH! THE FUCKERS DON'T NEED ANY HELP!! JESS1344 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 BATFE has been a rogue agency for quite some time. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 (edited) and in the time this thread has been up…... SGAmmo just sells another Billion rounds…..LOL Edited April 12, 2015 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spacehog 2,218 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 The 2nd Amendment makes no distinction of "sporting use" or other use. To buy into this narrative does nothing less than achieve the left's attempt to divide gun owners. After all it has worked in every other aspect hasn't it? Rich vs poor, black vs white, women vs men, republican vs democrat, Employer vs Employee. It is the same tactic over and over again. Remain united and keep pushing. We are winning the idiological battle on gun rights and ownership. Keep pushing! 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XdamagedX 248 Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 This reminds me of the non-NFA "AOW". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted April 14, 2015 Report Share Posted April 14, 2015 Judging from the NRA reaction I would say they dont take getting caught any better than the BATFE. Yeah use the full five letters... they hate that Hi guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Judging from the NRA reaction I would say they dont take getting caught any better than the BATFE. Hmmm? What did the NRA say/do, I must've missed it. I'm no fan of the NRA, they've long been willing to throw others under the bus. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Don't you know? Every time an anti gun law or ruling is passed its actually the NRAs fault. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 As much as I don't like the NRA, it takes a real hater to even think that kind of crap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Please give credit where credit is due. This post is an identical copy of an article written by: http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/david-codrea DAVID CODREA http://www.examiner.com/article/atf-classification-compromise-to-redefine-sporting-use-ban-certain-ammo-imports 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) Oops Edited April 15, 2015 by ChileRelleno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saltydecimator 482 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 and THIS http://www.examiner.com/article/heller-foundation-raising-funds-for-machine-gun-lawsuit is what gets me aroused in the links! just think how quick we could get cool new weapons if manuf. didnt have to spend so much time neutering em 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
storm6490 2,768 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) here's a strange idea. we have hunters safety if you want to hunt. a carry class if you want to conceal your weapon in certain zones and you have to have a valid operation to sell firearms... so there is a reasonable regulation like a felony check before a sale.... if automatic firearms became legal would you be down with having people take a class before operating one? like a drivers license endorsement for a motorcycle? i love autos but they do carry extra responsibilities. i scolded a friend who was pretty clueless on the extra responsibilities of his 338L while training him on how figure out his basic dope. he took a stupid fucking shot and I quit teaching and left. i'd hate to see dip shits go out and buy an auto with no clue. kinda like the assholes who buy a turbo porsche and end up in the hospital within a week. Edited April 15, 2015 by Stryker0946 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jwulf 179 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 Wow, I didn't expect to see anything on the full auto front. Hopefully it brings surpressors, SBR, and SBS along with it if they are sucessful! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 here's a strange idea. we have hunters safety if you want to hunt. a carry class if you want to conceal your weapon in certain zones and you have to have a valid operation to sell firearms... so there is a reasonable regulation like a felony check before a sale.... if automatic firearms became legal would you be down with having people take a class before operating one? like a drivers license endorsement for a motorcycle? i love autos but they do carry extra responsibilities. i scolded a friend who was pretty clueless on the extra responsibilities of his 338L while training him on how figure out his basic dope. he took a stupid fucking shot and I quit teaching and left. i'd hate to see dip shits go out and buy an auto with no clue. kinda like the assholes who buy a turbo porsche and end up in the hospital within a week. Definitely, full auto is not for novice shooters at all. I can't believe I am saying this but full auto does need to be regulated. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 No, it doesn't need regulated. It's a TOOL. So's my chainsaw, nailgun, welder, wood chipper, etc. Treat it like one. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 (edited) I wouldn't want to see those aforementioned tools in the hands of novice operators either. Even though I have and the end results have been deadly. Edited April 15, 2015 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted April 15, 2015 Report Share Posted April 15, 2015 The problem with regulation is simply no one is fit to do it. Or havent we learned that lesson yet? Judging from the NRA reaction I would say they dont take getting caught any better than the BATFE. Hmmm? What did the NRA say/do, I must've missed it. I'm no fan of the NRA, they've long been willing to throw others under the bus. Oh just a vid of them denying the matter and wanting sources named. That second is the give away. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted April 18, 2015 Report Share Posted April 18, 2015 The 2nd Amendment makes no distinction of "sporting use" or other use. To buy into this narrative does nothing less than achieve the left's attempt to divide gun owners. After all it has worked in every other aspect hasn't it? Rich vs poor, black vs white, women vs men, republican vs democrat, Employer vs Employee. It is the same tactic over and over again. Remain united and keep pushing. We are winning the idiological battle on gun rights and ownership. Keep pushing! The 'sporting use' comes from the 1938 Nazi law which the 1968 Gun Control Act was copied from. This is documented by Jews for the Preservation of Firearms ownership. It's hard to understand how World War II veterans voted to implement this Nazi law 23 years after the defeat of Nazi Germany. Apparently the progressives decided to continue in their path to taking our rights away. here's a strange idea. we have hunters safety if you want to hunt. a carry class if you want to conceal your weapon in certain zones and you have to have a valid operation to sell firearms... so there is a reasonable regulation like a felony check before a sale.... if automatic firearms became legal would you be down with having people take a class before operating one? like a drivers license endorsement for a motorcycle? i love autos but they do carry extra responsibilities. i scolded a friend who was pretty clueless on the extra responsibilities of his 338L while training him on how figure out his basic dope. he took a stupid fucking shot and I quit teaching and left. i'd hate to see dip shits go out and buy an auto with no clue. kinda like the assholes who buy a turbo porsche and end up in the hospital within a week. Remember how a nine year old accidentally killed the guy who was showing him how to use a submachine gun? That was a stupid move which cost a life and a boy who will have to live with this for the rest of his life traumatized by the accidental killing. At least at Knob Creek, the range has range officers who ensure that safety rules are obeyed at the range when they have the twice a year machine gun shoot. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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