IndyArms 10,186 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Well, Lets just hope that since the OP was a *LONG TIME AGO*... Things have changed for the better. One never knows why people act the way they do... maybe that day the owner of Gunsmoke had the ATF in house giving him the ol' sand in the vaseline... and he was at his wits end... Who knows... Lets just give them the benefit of the doubt, as thats the only issue we have currently... and it was over 2 and a half YEARS AGO! I will personally never understand why people need to bring up and resurrect these old DINOSAUR posts that really dont offer anything PRODUCTIVE... If you want to take this as a reason NOT to deal with Gunsmoke, Then maybe you should call them and get the skinny firsthand, and not go with almost 3 year old complaints... a LOT can change in 3 years!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 at least if u call there u talk to someone, and we also get out conversions in a timely manner, usually a couple weeks at the most. we'd be faster if i didnt have a full time job as well. i wasnt working there at the time, but we dont know if the OP kept calling constantly and what was said on his part. CW doesnt sugarcoat anything. the other guy that does the coversions, RED, welds thats why im asking questions here. i can read this on my breaks at work and learn as much as i can. also do R&D in my head before it gets actually done. if u think my conversions look nice, they all were done there. as well as dozens more. dont let a few peoples bad experiences keep you away from a fine firearm. thanks for the words Indy, and for word of mouth advertising....it isnt the dozens of jobs u do great and people thank you for....its that 1 time you get irritated and cuss someone out that get plastered on the internet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Hmm....... Very strange and sad story... Since it has been over 2.5 years form the initial post in this thread, maybe there is a chance that everything changed for the better - lets just wait and see - please, give the guys a chance... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pagadawg34 0 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 I sent Gunsmoke a letter last week. He returned my money order for over $500 in todays mail. Thank God I am out of this S-12 short barrel mess!!! Wolverine Well now their a business member. Amazing. That dealer sounds like a real dumbass. I'm a newbie about to buy a Saiga 12 19" barrel. What is (or was) the short barrel issue? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Saiga sent in a container full of S12's with barrels that were only 17 3/4" long... or some-such length that was just a cunthair shy of "legal limit" for shotguns... The ATF was not pleased... BUT instead of confiscating them all and destroying them, the importer was allowed to recall them all, and permanently weld a barrel extension on ( think of a thread protector here...) and allow them to reach legal limit to be sold legally in the USA... Thats the story in a nutshell... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 After all this time, I only have one question for Gunsmoke... Were Miss Kitty's real?? (This thread needed lightening up!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ObCom 0 Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Folks, Gunsmoke is a rural gunshop in North Florida with a major asset; they're one of the few RAAC distributors, and they're nearby. C.W. is old school, and will emphatically share his opinions if pressed. However, C.W. & Red will definitely give you a straight-up deal with no B.S. if you're in the market for a Saiga! BTW, they've got an exclusive manufacturing contract on a couple of nice muzzle break designs for the S12 as well. I bought the two-slot design to simply reduce muzzle rise: Perhaps Red will post some pictures of the "hog's tooth" door breacher design in their new forum soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Perhaps Red will post some pictures of the "hog's tooth" door breacher design in their new forum soon. hey, beat u to the request, look at my s12 in the picture thread. btw i work there as well. we got a few 12s getting converted about to go into paint. we are remodelling the workshop but still getting product out. and the hawgs tooth is $69. looks similiar to tromixs but a few differences, and by no way is it a "knock off". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Hmm....... Very strange and sad story... Since it has been over 2.5 years form the initial post in this thread, maybe there is a chance that everything changed for the better - lets just wait and see - please, give the guys a chance... That thread might seem strange because it is a part two of an earlier thread. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...amp;hl=gunsmoke In the earlier thread of Feb 11 2006, the initial post was about myself calling CW at gunsmoke and asking him about his inventory of Saiga 12s that I was in the process of trying to order one from him. Tony Rumore had just began to warn about the barrel length problem on the new imports and I called gunsmoke about my concern. CW refused to check while I was on the phone with him and argued that this was some kind of BS rumor, implied I was lying about this issue, and argued that 16inch shotgun barrels are the legal limit. quote from my original thread Called him because i had ordered a Saiga 12 from him.Told him that he needed to check his Saiga 12s to make sure he doesnt sell off any that are less than 18 inches. The dickhead says the literature says they are 19 inches and that this is all a liberal scheme to stop sales. I said please dont take my word for it measure a few. He refused and said he knows best. Told the dickhead, his order to me is going back and his arrogance will be mentioned on the internet. What an asshole. By the way, the owner of gunsmoke argued that 16inch shotgun barrels are legal installed. It hard to believe a fucking dealer doesnt fucking know a simple NFA rule about shotgun barrels needing to be 18 inches. The owner of Gunsmoke also had the nerve to say " And even if Im right about his need to check his barrrels, what the hell would he do for all of the ones hes already sold".So he doesnt care about his customers. Its all about the $ to him. He acted like this in two separate events by nearly a month apart, and in the end he knew I was right about the first call and refused to apologize and proceeded to cuss me out over the phone. No apology ever came. Forget apology, hes been in the gun business for along time and told me a shotgun barrel length limit is 16 inches that is way wrong. Then his ethics about if I am right what the hell he would do for all the ones he already sold. The guy is an idiot with bad ethics and a horribly closed mind. I have never had such a bad experience buying anything in comparison to what occurred with CW. His business relations might have got better, but I will not attempt to find out. 152dbs sorry but your boss burned his bridge with someone that was trying to help him at one time. Its not that I think less of any of his employees. Please do not let my experiences and the fact that this occurred nearly 3 years ago prevent anyone from trying to do business with Gunsmoke. Things might have changed by now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKdomination 1 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I read some bad reviews about gunsmoke at ar15.com. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I read some bad reviews about gunsmoke at ar15.com. when were these posted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKdomination 1 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I read some bad reviews about gunsmoke at ar15.com. when were these posted? Here is one from 2006 http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&am...5294&page=3 Has something to do about ar15 parts. I seen other ones I guess do a search. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I read some bad reviews about gunsmoke at ar15.com. when were these posted? Here is one from 2006 http://www.ar15.com/lite/topic.html?b=3&am...5294&page=3 Has something to do about ar15 parts. I seen other ones I guess do a search. not us man, its another gunsmoke.....we barely carry any products for an AR. all i can think of is the AR tool/wrench, ammo, mags.... we arent gunsmokeenterprises.net....we are americansaiga.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I'm considering sending my wifes new 410 to gunsmoke for a conversion to put any of these myths to bed.... No one has even done business with these folks since they signed on.... Just a bunch of smack talk from over two years ago... Give them a chance, people..... Truth like cream rises to the top...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I'm considering sending my wifes new 410 to gunsmoke for a conversion to put any of these myths to bed.... if im the one doing it, ill treat it as my own... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I'm considering sending my wifes new 410 to gunsmoke for a conversion to put any of these myths to bed.... No one has even done business with these folks since they signed on.... Just a bunch of smack talk from over two years ago... Give them a chance, people..... Truth like cream rises to the top...... I'm sure everyone will feel the same about inviting back Alliance Armament in 2 years when things might have become different with how they do business. I have heard a bunch of smack about them too I guess you can't trust anybody's experiences anymore. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 all I'm asking for is a clean slate with them being brought on board as a business member.... As I stated before.... time will tell.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 I'm considering sending my wifes new 410 to gunsmoke for a conversion to put any of these myths to bed.... No one has even done business with these folks since they signed on.... Just a bunch of smack talk from over two years ago... Give them a chance, people..... Truth like cream rises to the top...... I'm sure everyone will feel the same about inviting back Alliance Armament in 2 years when things might have become different with how they do business. I have heard a bunch of smack about them too I guess you can't trust anybody's experiences anymore. man, u never dealt with me, and things do change. i guess people w/ closed minds are too immature to allow people a chance. instead of whining and being negative, just dont say anything. or let us do a conversion for u...then again we'd prove u wrong and ud still say nothing nice. ur just cranky about an old man, set in his ways...and a small temper...its not as bad as when u dealt w/ him nearly 3 yrs ago. have u actually seen any of our work...1st hand? or are my pictures the closest uve gotten. and if anyone sees the word "gunsmoke" around...it probably isnt us. its a pretty common name thanks to the tv show. btw, thanks juggs. at least got someone on our side that isnt just bitching about what theyve read, heard, or dealt w/ along time ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 (edited) This is an interesting topic. I see both sides of this conversation. I also believe in second chances. Still, customer service is very important in this business. 152dbs, you are certainly entitled to the benefit of the doubt. However, I must say that if a vendor cussed me out and was rude to me, (particularly when I was in the right), I would tell my cohorts. Would that not be expected? We rely on each other to find out who is worthy of our hard earned money and who is not. I am getting old, but being old is no excuse for being a rude jackass. If the people at Gunsmoke are rude, I would NEVER do business with them. Plain and simple. Treat me like crap and I would spread the word and I might hold a grudge. I have done business with at least 75% of the vendors on this board. All have treated me with respect and dignity. If they didn't, I would tell the members of this board about it. So, with a fresh start, and an apparently courteous and knowledgeable staff of employees such as yourself, I offer a simple suggestion. Keep the old guy off the phone and in the back putting out a good product. In his case, silence might be golden and being salty might be a costly luxury. As Juggs said, time will tell. W Edited October 18, 2008 by WarriorJudge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
152dbs 0 Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 This is an interesting topic. I see both sides of this conversation. I also believe in second chances. Still, customer service is very important in this business. 152dbs, you are certainly entitled to the benefit of the doubt. However, I must say that if a vendor cussed me out and was rude to me, (particularly when I was in the right), I would tell my cohorts. Would that not be expected? We rely on each other to find out who is worthy of our hard earned money and who is not. I am getting old, but being old is no excuse for being a rude jackass. If the people at Gunsmoke are rude, I would NEVER do business with them. Plain and simple. Treat me like crap and I would spread the word and I might hold a grudge. I have done business with at least 75% of the vendors on this board. All have treated me with respect and dignity. If they didn't, I would tell the members of this board about it. So, with a fresh start, and an apparently courteous and knowledgeable staff of employees such as yourself, I offer a simple suggestion. Keep the old guy off the phone and in the back putting out a good product. In his case, silence might be golden and being salty might be a costly luxury. As Juggs said, time will tell. W i know what u mean....been on the "receiving" side more than not. but its sad....that people generally spread the "bad" more often than the "good". with how frustrated i am....im at least not being negative. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gator Guns 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 I've known CW and Red for about five months and while I will agree CW is uniquely different with his strong belief's and opinions, I have taken his concealed weapons course, purchased a 45 auto and just bought a S-12 which I will get converted by Red when my funds are replenished. In all this time I have known them to be honest, professional and a pleasure to deal with! PS Always a great deal!!! : Quote Link to post Share on other sites
quinci956 1 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 I bought one of those short S12's back then from C.W. The problem was that he trusted RAAC and would not believe that they would have screwed up so he stood up for them only to get embarrassed later on. C.W. is that kind of man. Once he trusts you, a brick wall has to fall on him before he will think other wise. You have to look at the area his shop is in and actually be there when some of these crackpots call. You would not believe some of the crap he has put up with over the phone inthe years he has been there. He has become a little sceptical to some of the rumors that come in and he will speak his mind. To me that is a plus. I never have to try and read the true meaning of what C.W. is thinking because he is very clear and doesn't pull any punches. I converted the s-12 and the .223 I bought from him and told him about it over the phone. Again he was sceptical about the conversion until he made a trip to Pensacola for a meeting and I convinced him to shoot both of my conversions. I ended up making several trips to Crawfordville and even leaving my guns there for evaluation for extended periods of time. C.W. went through two "gunsmiths" before finding a couple of guys that could do them properly. I personally have worked on conversions with Red and have total confidence in his work. I wanted my guns to work flawlessly. I tortured mine by shooting cases of ammunition through them without cleaning them. I would then just throw them in my trunk where they would sit and get beat around back there until I wanted to play again. Red is very meticulous in his conversions and they will not leave the shop until they pass C.W.'s inspection for function and appearance. Call C.W. what you want, but for me, he is exactly who I would want to buy my conversion from. I want the guy who won't take anything less than perfection before he puts his name on it. He has sold several rifles and shotguns to friends of mine and I have never heard any complaints. He had converted rifles and shotguns left over from one of the previous "Gunsmiths" that were poorly done and refused to sell them. They sat in the back on the shelf until Red was able to tear them down and completely rework them. The ones that still could not make the grade were reduced to spare parts. Today with Tromix and all of the other proven shops that have so much work that they can't take on any new orders, Gunsmoke is not a bad option. You can either get on a year long waiting list or give these guys a try. If for some reason you buy one of the converted Saigas and find a problem, C.W. will take it back and correct it. All it takes is a phone call and you will be answered by either Red or C.W. to explain the problem and make arrangements. I mentioned Tromix earlier and I am by no means saying anything negative about their work or product. My point is that their quality is already proven and because of that, they sometimes get more requests for work than they can fill. I am just saying that I have seen the guns that they put out and I have been very pleased and am confident in passing on my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Once he trusts you, a brick wall has to fall on him before he will think other wise. IMHO these can be the best people/friends. And working with consumers can be hard, you get all types... He should of looked into it more, and RAA is known for making mistakes, I think the most current one is the third hole with a rivet going through it. I can respect trusting what you know, but he could of handled it a little better... I would have no problem dealing with them from what I have seen. There is a Gunsmoke that has a bad rep with AR-15's... and they are located in FL. I think they got put on the AR15.com black list due to misrepresentation of AR-15 parts kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
quinci956 1 Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 Once he trusts you, a brick wall has to fall on him before he will think other wise. IMHO these can be the best people/friends. And working with consumers can be hard, you get all types... He should of looked into it more, and RAA is known for making mistakes, I think the most current one is the third hole with a rivet going through it. I can respect trusting what you know, but he could of handled it a little better... I would have no problem dealing with them from what I have seen. There is a Gunsmoke that has a bad rep with AR-15's... and they are located in FL. I think they got put on the AR15.com black list due to misrepresentation of AR-15 parts kits. That is not the same business. Gunsmoke in Crawfordville doesn't sell parts kits. C.W. is an Olympic Arms distributor and only sells factory AR's from them. He does not deal in Ar parts kits. I agree that the problem could have been handled better. I know C.W. can come off harsh at times but when it comes to doing business, he still believes that a man's word means something. He is definitely old school and to him his word and a handshake carry as much weight as a written legal contract. I guess that was the original problem, he trusted the Russians not to make a mistake. Unfortunately the Russians are not as bound by their word as he is. After this short barreled incident and a few other sneaky Russian tricks his eyes were opened. These were not mistakes by Homer or RAA but by the Russians themselves. I think that RAA fell victim to the short barrel issue also. The fix was easy. Getting all of the sold weapons back to weld the screw on chokes for ATF inspection was the tricky part. There were a few that were refusing to bring them back in at first but it finally all came to a pieceful end. My choke was spot welded in place. I have since removed it and have a Tromix Shark Break spot welded in it's place. Beats the hell out of lock tite for keeping it in place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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