scattergun10 125 Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 I've thought about getting one.What are the pros and cons? I already have a recoil buffer installed if that makes any difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 What cal.? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergun10 125 Posted March 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 7.62x39 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted March 5, 2016 Report Share Posted March 5, 2016 Get a Wolff or ALG spring. Ditch the buffer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergun10 125 Posted March 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Are there any benefits besides keeping the bolt carrier from contacting the rear trunnion too violently? Wouldn't an extra power spring also cause the carrier to contact the FRONT trunnion more violently on return to battery? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 It will make it feel nice. Dump the buffer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BigChongus 765 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 I run them in mine. I do like the decreased cycle time and they make the impulse less violent, but I wasn't having any issues without them. Are there any benefits besides keeping the bolt carrier from contacting the rear trunnion too violently? Wouldn't an extra power spring also cause the carrier to contact the FRONT trunnion more violently on return to battery? The extra force due to the spring on the front trunnion is nothing compared to the amount of force that's on the rear trunnion if it's contacting excessively hard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sim_Player 1,939 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 I run them in mine. I do like the decreased cycle time and they make the impulse less violent, but I wasn't having any issues without them. Are there any benefits besides keeping the bolt carrier from contacting the rear trunnion too violently? Wouldn't an extra power spring also cause the carrier to contact the FRONT trunnion more violently on return to battery? The extra force due to the spring on the front trunnion is nothing compared to the amount of force that's on the rear trunnion if it's contacting excessively hard. No experience but, that sounds like good science. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 The amount of increased force from a spring with slightly more force is nowhere near powerful enough to make a difference in the front trunnion. If your spring has the force to damage the front trunnion you got some serious problems with metallurgy and shouldn't be shooting that thing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Yup ditch the buffer. The AK was designed from the start to have a recoil spring strong enough to remove the chances of the bolt carrier striking the rear trunnion. I use a Wolff extra power recoil spring in one of my AKs chambered for 7.62x39, I can tell you I don't really notice a difference in reduction of felt recoil and the extra spring power being that low negates any advantages of increased lock time (Which would probably with only a 5% increase be measurable in just a few milliseconds.). But hey it's extra stiff without sacrificing performance which means I'll have to do that much more sending lead downrange before I have to replace it with another one. If you still want one, go for it, it works. But ditch the buffer. It's not a MAC-10, it wasn't designed to run with one (The MAC-10 was.). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Meh 6 of one half a dozen of the other, done both no problems with either even after thousands of rounds. BTW the S308 was designed to run with a buffer. Always go with quality either way. Thanks to football my right shoulder can be a mess so any reduction in felt recoil is welcome, keeps me in 30 call instead of 22. If my left was any better I would learn to shoot left handed, it can be that bad. Edited March 6, 2016 by Rhodes1968 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) AK wasn't designed to use a buffer. Doesn't need one. AK was designed to use a spring. Does need one. And before somebody starts arguing "Well the AK wasn't designed with vertical grips and red dot sights either so you better not use those!!" (because internet is for arguing), I'm talking about parts that affect the action. AK recoil buffers keep the bolt carrier from going all the way back and can cause failure to feed from the bolt carrier not getting enough energy from the spring to strip and chamber a round. Yes I've seen it happen in a 100% reliable AK that suddenly had ftf on the first round from the mag due to the buffer. Use one if you like but those of us who will never use one have good reason. Edited March 6, 2016 by Darth Saigus 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) AK wasn't designed to use a buffer. Doesn't need one. Tell that to my I.O. AK. It was designed with a buffer and needs it to operate…. To every rule there is always an exception. https://youtu.be/o--88i-SMdg Edited March 6, 2016 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vance665 225 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Rob Ski from Ak operators replaced the springs in ALL his AKs with the ALG spring. Theres a short youtube video on it. I'm waiting to see what his long-term results are. AK wasn't designed to use a buffer. Doesn't need one. Tell that to my I.O. AK.It was designed with a buffer and needs it to operate…. To every rule there is always an exception. I believe that's just a bandaid to fix an overgassed/shitty product. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) Just because something is designed different does not make it shitty. Shitty would be something that does not function or is problematic. My I.O. has functioned flawlessly with zero problems at +1000 rnds. I am more than happy with it so far. Sure, other people have had problems with theirs, but other people have problems wiping their own ass too. Does having to use a buffer on an AK to work, go against all things AK….yes,absolutely. Your gun won't operate with out ammo either, does that make it a shitty gun? This certain gun was designed to use a buffer to operate correctly….. so it is what it is. If it bothers you, all I can say is don't buy one. I have a Saiga, a Yugo and a polish AK……I shoot my I.O. the most…..go figure. I'm really trying to get this sucker to break, but it just won't. Edited March 6, 2016 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) There are many reasons IO products are considered shitty. If you got one that works then good for you. But IO didn't design the AK. That theirs needs a buffer to keep the bolt carrier from jumping out of the rails shows that they aren't building them correctly. Because if countless variations of AKs made by countless builders are working great without buffers then what does IO do differently that it needs a buffer? According to this, if you replace some parts with properly made pieces then the buffer isn't needed. So let me revise and extend my previous remark. Since the AK wasn't designed with a buffer, and the vast majority of AKs don't need a buffer, don't use one unless you have one of the few AKs that was built with one. Edited March 6, 2016 by Darth Saigus 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Would I ever buy another I.O……probably not, as I like variations in my AK collection. Am I sorry I bought my I.O…….absolutely not, it has been great so far. I am very aware of all of the issues this brand has had in the past, so I consider myself to be very fortunate to have one that is performing well. I have only had mine for about a year now so maybe they are finally getting things worked out. They are considered the black sheep of the AK world so they have a lot of bridges to cross before becoming well respected in the AK community. But if their new products are anything like mine, they should do all-right in the near future. The USA built AK's are becoming a very competitive market so they definitely have their hands full. I'm just a big fan of AK's in general..the good, the bad and the ugly……I like em all. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SHOTGUN MESIAH 855 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) I really like that guy in those videos, Seems like a real person who actually cares. Some great info right there. It will be interesting to see if I.O. gets all these problems fixed and more so, if they take care of those of us who have purchased their product. Like sending us, free of charge a updated bolt carrier and recoil system. If they come through on that, they will be top notch to me. I will continue to fire mine the way it is until I have issues. Using a buffer does not bother me at all. Edited March 6, 2016 by SHOTGUN MESSIAH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scattergun10 125 Posted March 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 I ordered a Wolff EP spring. I read on another forum that it also helps reduce muzzle rise. If that's the case, I imagine it could possibly even help improve accuracy,guess I'll see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ShadowFire 220 Posted March 6, 2016 Report Share Posted March 6, 2016 Meh 6 of one half a dozen of the other, done both no problems with either even after thousands of rounds. BTW the S308 was designed to run with a buffer. Always go with quality either way. Thanks to football my right shoulder can be a mess so any reduction in felt recoil is welcome, keeps me in 30 call instead of 22. If my left was any better I would learn to shoot left handed, it can be that bad. If they use the same spring to operate the .308 cartridge then yes that makes sense if the spring they use is actually made for weaker cartridges. One of those "Ehh, it'll work if we just add a buffer to it." moments. Doesn't mean that it's a bad idea, just means that Saiga made that adjustment to try and likely cut cost. My VEPR .308 for example does not have a buffer and never came with one. Many ways to do one thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Would I ever buy another I.O……probably not, as I like variations in my AK collection. Am I sorry I bought my I.O…….absolutely not, it has been great so far. I am very aware of all of the issues this brand has had in the past, so I consider myself to be very fortunate to have one that is performing well. I have only had mine for about a year now so maybe they are finally getting things worked out. They are considered the black sheep of the AK world so they have a lot of bridges to cross before becoming well respected in the AK community. But if their new products are anything like mine, they should do all-right in the near future. The USA built AK's are becoming a very competitive market so they definitely have their hands full. I'm just a big fan of AK's in general..the good, the bad and the ugly……I like em all. I like the look of the product IO is putting out, but they are still known to cut corners in several areas that just make no sense. Deciding to supply a buffer as a standard part, rather than making the small additional machining steps to the carrier that ensure it remains on the rails - makes no sense. Using the barrel chamber as a bucking bar for the top two trunnion rivets, when this is known to potentially lead to incomplete rivet expansion - makes no sense. I really do not HATE IO, but they would really do a lot by their reputation if they would just resolve several well known issues with their builds - ESPECIALLY after they made such a big deal a year or so ago about retooling their entire in-house build operation. As for my experience with the XP spring, I found it to occasionally cause short stroking in my Saiga .223 when using low-powered Tulammo cartridges. With Wolff or 5.56 NATO ammo it ran just fine. Edited March 7, 2016 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
netpackrat 566 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I have one of the Wolff springs in my Saiga .308 and it seems to help, and another one in my AMD-65 based SBR, which I am going to remove and replace with the original when I get around to it. The thinner buffers don't hurt anything and they can help keep the carrier from jumping the rails, which is not necessarily an indicator of poor build quality. I needed one on my .308 to be able to use the TWS rail (the S308 specific takedown button TWS sells didn't work). And no matter how good of a job you do assembling surplus parts (that may or may not have been part of a rifle together once) onto a US made receiver, sometimes the parts just don't work together the way you would like them to. There are different ways of dealing with a carrier that wants to slip off of the rails, but adding a buffer is simple, effective, and has fewer downsides than some of the other tweaks you can make. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jerry52 893 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 The only reason I have ever used one is to smooth out a gun shooting ammo at top velocitys. My 556 runs like butter and everybody wants to shoot it at the range. All my ammo I shoot including some steel are running Max loads. We have had a few IOs at the range that would not cycle untill the buffer was removed. I never cared for Tula but I will reload them for fun sometimes if the primer are right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 7, 2016 Report Share Posted March 7, 2016 I have buffers in a couple AK type guns. With some miss match parts, the bolt will override the rails without one. If that gives you conniption fits too bad! If a buffer works it is NOT a problem. If it doesn't work then take it out. The problem with an extra power spring, or a buffer is that either could be a source of short stroking. If rounds strip and load OK - no problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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