Modding AK buttstock for unconverted Saiga 12

[boxorain 0]

The factory buttstock on my new Saiga 12 was too long for my 5'2" wife, especially after addition of a recoil pad. Worse, I live in an unenlightened jurisdiction in which you can't legally have both a detachable magazine and a pistol grip. And I couldn't find a Saiga-compatible buttstock that was shorter than the factory one. So I decided to get a regular AK buttstock and see if I could make it work. I think I have succeeded (though one of my purposes in posting this is to find out from more knowledgeable people if I have screwed up in some way I'm too clueless to know about). Here's what I did.

 

I decided to work with a K-var AK stock because they offered a variety of lengths and I liked the appearance of their stocks in pics I saw here, and I ended up getting this NATO-length model. Tracy and Bashir at K-var were just as helpful as they could be throughout several consultations.

 

This photo shows both the factory Saiga buttstock and the K-var AK:

 

 

When I tried to put the AK buttstock into the Saiga receiver, it wouldn't fit because (1) the Saiga trigger assebly was in the way, (2) the rivet that holds the back of the trigger guard to the bottom of the receiver was in the way, and (3) the tang that extends back from the trigger guard was in the way. Comparing the Saiga factory buttstock with the AK buttstock, I could see the mods I would have to make.

 

 

The first photo shows the inlet profiles, with the Saiga on the left and the AK on the right. The Saiga has a notch cut about 3/8" deep and 11/16" high into the bottom of the inlet, which allows the factory stock to clear the trigger assembly.

 

The second photo shows the bottoms of the two stocks. The Saiga, again on the left, has a slot in the inlet to clear the rivet and a cutaway in the stock to accommodate the tang.

 

I proceeded to cut the notch out of the bottom of the AK stock with a hacksaw. The shape of the stock prevented me from using a normal router on the bottom cuts because the stock got in the way of the router's baseplate. So I put a router bit into a drill press and routed the rivet slot and the tang cutaway with that as best I could (= not so great). This was the somewhat disappointing result:

 

 

There's an obvious hole in the inlet, and the router bit also broke slightly through the composite at the back of the tang cut. At the spot where the bottom screw would go, the composite was too thin to hold the screw firmly. I had to fill those areas with some formable substance that would hold a screw. I ordered some of this medium-curing-time epoxy casting resin off ebay (the guy who sells it says the quick-curing epoxy is too brittle to hold a screw), but then I got impatient and used some plastic wood I had on hand. After curing and painting, the result looks like this:

 

 

If I had it to do over again, I would have bought the epoxy stuff first and filled the inlet up to the screw holes before making any cuts. Or I might have just gone with a wooden AK stock like one of these, though I am happy with my K-var now that it's finished. Here it is inserted into the receiver:

 

 

I haven't field-tested it yet, so if anyone knows of a reason to think this will blow up in my face (heh), I'd be obliged if you'd warn me quick.

[Azrial 1,091]

I doubt that it will blow up in your face, but now you have a 922R Issue. You could have simply cut down the existing stock, and not have changed the fit of the gun so radically.

 

The straight grip stock you have now will be more difficult to hang onto then the semi-pistol grip for your wife. I believe that Max sells a plate that will mount a recoil pad to the factory stock. If I had needed to reduce the length of my firearm, I would have played around with that, or a home fabricated wood insert and reduced the length that way.

 

But, I can't flaw your workmanship! Nice effort!

[boxorain 0]

now you have a 922R Issue.

 

Gulp! I guess I don't understand 922R -- I thought that didn't kick in as long as I was using US-made parts. Are you saying I can modify my Russian stock or fabricate a new stock myself and I'm in the clear, but if I put on a store-bought US-made stock I have to start counting parts? <reaches for screwdriver>

[bf2rules141 3]

I am not sure about the 922,no pistol grip added.... as for your mod. to the stock good job... if it was me I would fill the hole with some epoxy filler that is compatible with the plastic. but I over do things,...

[Alpha Kilo 42]

why would there be a 922r problem? The gun is still in 100% importable form.....

[firedawg 0]

have you looked at falcon arms---they have a womens/youth model folding AK stock. it should be short enough if you can have a folding stock where you live. if not, you could always modify/weld/permatently prevent it from folding.

 

www.falconarms.com (i think this is the website)

[boxorain 0]

I think Azrial is right, now that I've consulted this forum's entire section devoted to 922R. It turns out that one cannot substitute US-made parts willy-nilly, as I had thought. If one substitutes any parts, one must substitute enough of the right parts to reduce the total count of listed foreign parts to 10 or less. This is why we all love our government.

 

Fortunately for me, I have (quite by accident) replaced enough other original parts with US-made parts to be in compliance. But others: take Azrial's warning seriously.

Edited December 29, 2008 by boxorain

[hallboss 1]

what state do you live in?

[oltmann 1]

[rjhauser 0]

what state do you live in?

 

process of elimination is one of the 4 unfriendly states but the 922r thing is gonna rear its ugly head....

 

russian for russian = ok

 

us for russian = get parts count down

[DL762AP 0]

Hmmm. I wonder what that would look like if you rigged a pistol grip to the bottom the that stock.

[hallboss 1]

what state do you live in?

 

process of elimination is one of the 4 unfriendly states but the 922r thing is gonna rear its ugly head....

 

russian for russian = ok

 

us for russian = get parts count down

 

Yeah I was just wondering about his statement in the OP about how he can't have a detach mag and a pistol grip. I wanted to make sure he was not misintrepreting the law and selling himself short on what he can or can't have. I know there is thousands of people in CA that think they can't have something, when in actuality they can and are either reading the law wrong or getting bad advice.

 

As far as the unfriendly states-New Jersey, Conneticut (I think) and California.....who is the forth?

[fxhart 14]

As far as the unfriendly states-New Jersey, Conneticut (I think) and California.....who is the forth?

 

New York, Massachusetts and I can confirm Connecticut.

[boxorain 0]

Thanks to all who replied, and especially to Azrial for prompting me to get schooled on 922R.

 

Tacticool got it - I'm in the Empire state (though how they ever expect to conquer an empire with these weapon laws is a mystery to me). Hallboss, if what you have in mind is making the magazine more difficult to detach, I've thought about it and I wouldn't want to make that trade. But I appreciate your wanting folks to know their options.

 

Firedawg, thanks for the suggestion. The women's/children's length looks to be similar to K-var's "Warsaw Pact" length.

 

oltmann, keep reading over there. There's a whole lot more to 922R than that.

[Azrial 1,091]

I have seen the BATF claim 922R issues when using parts to modify firearms from their imported configuration.

 

Example, the H&K SP89 pistol was not permitted to use the hand guard with a short vertical grip that was designed for the full auto configuration, the H&K MP5k.

 

The stock, while made in the USA is designed for a firearm this would not be importable under 922R.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

[oltmann 1]

oltmann, keep reading over there. There's a whole lot more to 922R than that.

 

Not really, if you don't have 2 of the 4 listed features, 922 doesn't apply. What features does your gun have?

[Azrial 1,091]

[Alpha Kilo 42]

I have seen the BATF claim 922R issues when using parts to modify firearms from their imported configuration.

 

Example, the H&K SP89 pistol was not permitted to use the hand guard with a short vertical grip that was designed for the full auto configuration, the H&K MP5k.

 

The stock, while made in the USA is designed for a firearm this would not be importable under 922R.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

 

At least for this case you are. (I'm not convinced enough either way on going from one fixed Saiga stock to another fixed Saiga stock to argue either way, but I'm leaning towards still 022r compliant) Not that I'm arguing here, I'm just pointing out that the SP89 case is a bad analogy, reason being when you place a VFG on a pistol it changes it to a AOW, so it's not so much a 922r violation as it is a ClassIII violation.

[7.62x39 0]

[Azrial 1,091]

[oltmann 1]

It seems I was a little quick to find my quote. Here is a better reference. The actual list of features is longer than the four I listed, but boils down the same features applicable to the saiga 12.

 

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

 

Replacing one non-pistol grip stock with another does not make the gun any more "non-sporting". Even the Russian made thumbhole stock would probably not be a problem(See Dragunov on an SKS comment in link).

 

I'm waiting to see an example of how the configuration shown by the OP has '922 issues'.

[Azrial 1,091]

I have seen the BATF claim 922R issues when using parts to modify firearms from their imported configuration.

 

Example, the H&K SP89 pistol was not permitted to use the hand guard with a short vertical grip that was designed for the full auto configuration, the H&K MP5k.

 

The stock, while made in the USA is designed for a firearm this would not be importable under 922R.

 

Of course, I could be wrong.

 

 

At least for this case you are. (I'm not convinced enough either way on going from one fixed Saiga stock to another fixed Saiga stock to argue either way, but I'm leaning towards still 022r compliant) Not that I'm arguing here, I'm just pointing out that the SP89 case is a bad analogy, reason being when you place a VFG on a pistol it changes it to a AOW, so it's not so much a 922r violation as it is a ClassIII violation.

Yep, you are correct, bad example. It being "correctly" a violation of the National Firearms Act of 1934 , page 9. (27 CFR 479.11.) I now remember the opinion that made that a fact of law. Frankly, I never saw the legal logic, with the words, :originally designed" considered.

 

Pistol. A weapon originally designed,

made, and intended to fire a projectile

(bullet) from one or more barrels when

held in one hand, and having (a) a

chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or

permanently aligned with, the bore(s);

and ( a short stock designed to be

gripped by one hand and at an angle to

and extending below the line of the

bore(s).

[hobbyshooter 59]

A little off the 922R topic, but back to the OP topic. Instead of using a shorter stock designed for a PG, why not simply chop off a few inches from the end of the factory sporter stock and fit with a recoil pad?

 

There HAS to be several hundred factory sporter stocks laying around that you could pick up for $5 each if you make any mistakes.

 

I know I've got one in my gun room doing nothing...

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hmmm. I wonder what that would look like if you rigged a pistol grip to the bottom the that stock.

 

IMO it would look like HAMMERED SHIT, just like all the rest of the ones out there.

[boxorain 0]

Instead of using a shorter stock designed for a PG, why not simply chop off a few inches from the end of the factory sporter stock and fit with a recoil pad?

 

Well, I didn't want to be without a stock while I was messin' with the factory one, and I do like that k-var stock and the FSE pad that fits it. But now that I have a substitute to keep the gun active, I may just go ahead and try to mod the factory buttstock. Has anyone done that successfully? If so, would you post some pointers and pics?

 

Come to think of it, though, I'm not sure I could even use the Russian buttstock anymore, because the US buttstock turns out to be my fourth compliance replacement part. (If I'm in the US, and I modify a Russian buttstock, does that make it a US buttstock? Heh.)

 

I also thought of possibly making a short wooden monte carlo style buttstock out of something like this.

[7.62x39 0]