waynebar 52 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I recently bought a Saiga 12 , before I start shooting it I would like some input on recoil buffers. I know from reading info posted on his site, Tony from Tromix is vehemently opposed to using them. I've seen some pictures posted of damage that in the opinion of some people who believe in the use of buffers say could be eliminated or lessened with the use of a buffer. I'm just asking if any opinions have changed, either for use of buffers, or against, after prolonger use, of different loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Buffers are a solution in search of a problem. My opinion hasn't changed one bit. If the firearm was meant to have a recoil buffer, it'd have been designed with one, such as the Ruger 10/22 or G3/Cetme rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Agree with Nalioth! If they needed one Mr. K. would have included one in his design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I don't believe it was Mikhail Kalashnikov who designed the Saiga-12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I don't believe it was Mikhail Kalashnikov who designed the Saiga-12 You are 'technically' correct sir, but an AK action is an AK action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 In general, no they arn't a good idea on a AK... However the sheer difference of rounds from low recoil rounds to 3" magnum 00 or slug rounds makes it hard to say I have one, sometime i take it out. always worked fine for me on my S-12 My 7.62x39 will never use a buffer though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 With all due respect bucko.... ..., the Ak is a rifle that shoots one particular load that is for the most part, always the same power. My point is, the S-12 is a totally different design in that, it has an adjustable gas system that can be inadvertently abused by the newbie, when firing overpowered loads on the wrong setting....resulting in some nasty impacts between the bolt and rear block. This I learned the hard way through my own impatient newbiness...lol...the first couple of times I fired my new favorite weapon. The only real reason I see that a buffer can be useful, is by being there to protect the weapon when one's euphoric reaction to the awesomeness of this beast called the S-12, overcomes ones good sense and memory to readjust the gas system before putting a few boxes of Remy Sluggers and Premier Turkey loads down the pipe. If I had had one in mine at the time, I would not have beat the living shiot out of my favorite K-USA S-12 on the first couple of outings. Did it cause terminal damage? ....NO, but I would still rather have not have those massive dents in my rear block and on the back of my bolt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 It would be interesting to see objective data to determine if there is any significant difference in recoil, say in pounds per square inch, with and without the buffer, and for the different calibers. My position on this is however backed highly by the opinion of some who are far more knowledgable and experienced than me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Yes indeed, I would love to have a device capable of measuring this kind of force. It would be very useful in designing effective recoil reducing devices. I've looked into this. I saw one guy posting on another type of forum for inventors and such. He had made a recoil reducing something or other, and had built a measuring device that could give the kind of data you are talking about. I emailed him asking for details but never got an answer. Still I think you may be missing my point about the buffers Doc...It's not the actual recoil I think it helps. The name recoil buffer is crap. It doesn't do much at all for felt recoil IMO. The only thing I find useful about it is the fact it eliminates the metal on metal impact that can cause damage to the weapon, either in the form of smashed and deformed rear blocks and bolts (including the kind of damage I had to deal with where it closed up the dovetail groove on my recoil spring base...to the point where I had to literally beat the spring base out with a hammer and punch just to break down the weapon for cleaning...) or possibly in a worse case, rivets getting knocked loose. I guess it should be called a bolt pad or something... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I do see your point Shannon. Guess it would just be nice to see some objective evidence in the real world, ideally with side by side comparison, of benefit or lack thereof. My guru's opinion is no, but it's just an opinion, albeit with Uberexperience, and no numbers to back it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Others can chime in if they will, but I believe the major cause of the dislike of buffers runs more along the lines of them rendering an otherwise reliable Saiga shotgun, less reliable because the damn things can be so finicky sometimes, it only takes a little bit to make them not cycle. The fact that the bolt carrier looses that little bit of travel distance, doubled by the reverse of direction, and compounded by the loss of that fraction of a second that the shell could be ejecting successfully....and a fresh one loading...then there's the fact that the first "recoil buffer" was made by Buffertech, and was almost twice as thick as the Blackjack buffer...compounding both these other problems....it's pretty easy to just say screw the buffer all together. Mr K didn't design the original with it, therefor there ain't no use for it. If it ain't broke don't fix it...yada yada yada....ya know what I mean? I'm not affiliated with any buffer makers, and I am by no means saying they are very effective improvements, or improvements at all for that matter, on the great Kalashnikov design. All I'm saying is, they can serve that one small purpose of preventing steel bashing steel. In a well cycling STOCK S-12, I'm not talking about an SBS, or one of these newfangled two port jobs, either of which can be teetering on the edge of not cycling light loads, especially if they are in need of a good cleaning...the smaller sized buffers will not cause your weapon to malfunction. At least that's been my experience. I've had one in all my shotguns, in fact my 410 has a big ass Buffertech in it, since as long as I can remember, and they haven't given me problems. True...if I take em out, my guns might run even better....but as long as they are working, I might as well sleep sound knowing I'm not beating the crap out of em, no matter what I shoot, or who I loan them to to have fun with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Cobra, "recoil buffers" screw up way more guns than Saiga-12s. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Cobra, "recoil buffers" screw up way more guns than Saiga-12s. I hear ya. I don't really see why anyone would need one in an AK rifle either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I dont use one in my 12 gauge, but the way my x39 is set up, I have one in there. My face touches the receiver cover and rearmost portion of the receiver at times, and it takes some of the snap out of the bolt. I DEFINATELY noticed when I took it out, and played fetch and reinstalled it. I also put one in my 10/22, but that one actually replaces something that is already there. I had one in my last AR as well, that I replaced the existing buffer with, and it too, took a tiny bit of snap out of the bolt coming back. when you ADD a recoil buffer into a recoil system of a gun, remember that you are changing the distance the bolt travels, and thus the cyclic rate, to something that the gun was not designed for. Mr K could have designed the receiver 1/4" shorter, but didnt. I DO get a stovepipe in the x39 once in a blue moon, and I am sure it is because of the buffer. I dont like my cheek getting numb if I am out all day shooting. If i were to take the gun into a situation which required deadly force, it would come out of there, thats for sure. I expect to wear out the 12 gauge eventually, and the x39 as well. I dont think a recoil buffer will slow that down in the case of the AK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Regarding the use of buffers, there are two situations to look at : Either the bolt carrier hits the buffer when cycling or it does not. If the bolt carrier does not hit the buffer when cycling, The buffer has no effect what so ever on how the gun performs and it is a cheap insurance against damage in case you forgot to go to setting #1 when shooting high brass. If the bolt carrier hits the buffer when cycling, it means that it was very close to hit the back of the receiver (and possibly damage the gun if a buffer had not been installed). The speed at which the bolt carrier hits the buffer will determine if you will have a FTF (Failure To Feed) or not. The harder the bolt carrier hits the buffer, the fastest it will bounce of it and the more likely a FTF will occur. The simple truth is that the harder the bolt carrier hits the buffer, the more likely it would damage the gun if the buffer was not there. When the bolt carrier hits the buffer lightly, it will bounce off at a slower speed and you should not have more FTF than if the buffer is not present. If you are having more FTF or FTE with a buffer installed, it means that your gun is probably over gazed or that you are using the wrong gas plug setting and shooting your gun without a buffer will likely damage it on the long run. A better solution would be to adjust your gas system or use Gunfirx's new gaz plug but a buffer is an easy and cheap insurance against any possible damage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 If the bolt carrier hits the buffer when cycling, it means that it was very close to hit the back of the receiver (and possibly damage the gun if a buffer had not been installed). This usually means that your recoil spring needs replacing. Adding a recoil buffer to 'fix' this, is just putting a bandaid on the real problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Bvamp and nalioth both hit on something which is a lack of spring kits availavle for S12 and AK platform guns. By this I mean "rated" springs so you can easily dial things in, but then again, your ammo choice is going to change things. A link for a complete set of 1911 springs might be helpful for the S12. On the other hand, I have heard of Mac owners changing buffers to effect cycle rate but that's a completely different application. Edit, I've noticed the indent on the rear trunion on my 4 hole EAA Saiga 12, but not on my newer RAA imports. The thing is, the pattern doesn't really match the back of the carrier/bolt and I don't have the usual indications of mushrooming from metal to metal contact. Can anyone absolutely tell that the marking on their gun is from overgassing impact? Edited January 31, 2009 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I can. I thought I over explained that to death a few times....nevermind. Mark I have seen the difference you are referring to, between my older EAA guns, and the newer RAAC imports. There is a definite difference in the rear block. The older ones have a recess. That's not what I'm talking about. On mine, I'm talking about actual dents around the edges of that recess and mushrooming at the end of the channel the recoil spring button rides in. I had to literally beat mine back out with a hammer, and then file the edges back straight in order to get it back in. There are closeup pics of that and the battered tail end of my bolt, shown in my business section, in the thread about Bolt and Bolt Carrier Mods. here> http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=33224 These pics also show both the old model rear block, and the new one. The two pics I posted showing the old style, are of mine and kris fox's K-USA guns. His isn't beat up like mine. I am firmly convinced that if I had not started using a buffer, mine would look worse now after 5 years. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 My S-12 is over gassed. with 4 ports. I use a green BJB to prevent parts battering. It will cycle anything I have found so far, TOO hard with hot ammo without some cushion, but if I find some seriously under powered ammo, I need only remove the buffer. (I still don't like wussy ammo). On the wife's UF AK, the Yugo UF rear trunnion is too far rearward for the slots in the upper rail, allowing the bolt and carrier to attempt to disassemble the gun so I installed a black BJB. I also use a black BJB in the S-.308 to prevent battering. It seems to help with the brass denting and limit the distance it throws brass to the same County I shot it in! Buffers are just another tuning tool - if it alleviates a problem you NEED one, if it doesn't cause any problems it is something you probably should have, and if it causes a problem - the damn thing comes out in 10 seconds. We are not talking about drilling holes in the barrel or grinding on the bolt here, a buffer is just a little piece of plastic that pops in or out in seconds. Try it - if it don't work for you in that particular gun you you most likely will need it in another. That said, the BJB buffers are thinner than the Buffer Tech ones, and as such are less likely to cause cycling problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 On the wife's UF AK, the Yugo UF rear trunnion is too far rearward for the slots in the upper rail, allowing the bolt and carrier to attempt to disassemble the gun so I installed a black BJB. This is the only time I'll ever recommend using a buffer in an AK - when some gibbon overcut the slots and there is no other way to keep the gun running. I also use a black BJB in the S-.308 to prevent battering. It seems to help with the brass denting and limit the distance it throws brass to the same County I shot it in!Buffers are just another tuning tool - if it alleviates a problem you NEED one, if it doesn't cause any problems it is something you probably should have, and if it causes a problem - the damn thing comes out in 10 seconds. Um, where is MD Willington and his weather stripping? That prevents dings in brass. I'm puzzled at how you'd put your gun at risk just to save time undinging brass to reload. Every time you stop your bolt carrier short, it sends all that kinetic energy into your rear block rivets, which transfers it to the receiver walls. This force is supposed to go into the buttstock and into your shoulder. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 If the bolt carrier hits the buffer when cycling, it means that it was very close to hit the back of the receiver (and possibly damage the gun if a buffer had not been installed). This usually means that your recoil spring needs replacing. Adding a recoil buffer to 'fix' this, is just putting a bandaid on the real problem. I assumed the recoil and hammer spring to be in good condition (like new as a matter of fact) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Lets throw the new buffer recoil out the window... My saiga 12 was brand new and I (suprise) had FTE with winchester, no other ammo... Throw in a blackjack buffer, and no noticable change in performance, but i still take it out regardless when firing low brass. Dosn't take but a few seconds to do so. So yeah its not there when i'm a the skeet range, but it sure is insurance when i load up some 3" rounds. No change in performance, and i doubt my recoil spring is harmed already. But again, thats the S-12 and it is a different beast entirly... the 7.62x39 is just a step above the 5.56 AR i have... In that recoil is hardly more than that of a 22LR. Maybe i'll become more sensitive in my old age, but as i see it, saiga shotgun, buffer is part on the tuning of the gas system, any 7.62 which is what the AK was designed for, buffer not needed. As far as a 308, i have no expirience. Edited February 1, 2009 by Nailbomb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 If AKs were designed to use buffer then Mikhail Kalashnikov would have put one in. The PPSh41 has a leather buffer which Shpagin designed in his weapon so changing it for an elastomer one would make sense. I tried one in my Saiga then my AK and the bolt never came back far enough to touch it. I wasted $8 which could have been used for ammo or something else. My friend who owned a dozen AKs said "I could have told you that, I tried them as well and they're worthless". He also said the same thing, the bolt carrier never travels far enough to touch the buffer. I would never use one in my 10/22 either, Bill Ruger never designed it in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 the buffer in my x39 shows lots of wear, and I even have a vented ultimak on it. granted, its got quite a lot of rounds down it, as well as some overcharged olympic. the rear trunion on it looks as new as the day i bought it, almost. it has about 100 rounds down it without the buffer in it, and the few marks it made on the trunion are still there, and otherwise appears pristine. In my particular case it worked. NOT ALL GUNS ARE CREATED EQUAL. the x39 in question, was a hand select from about 100 of them. the dealer did me good on that one, as the trade I made did him good, and that was the agreement. the buffer i put in my 10/22 replaces the pin that holds everything together (that big piece of steel rod that falls out when you take the gun apart) and DOES NOT add anything into the action. it works well, if you ask me. I am not a big fan of rugers, outside of the SA revolvers, though. It hasnt caused any failures. The only failures since i have installed it were caused by dirty gun or mag conditions, or overoiling. My s12 DOES show mashing on the rear trunion and rear of the bolt head. The hammer face is so smooth you would think I paid 100 bucks for a service just on that part. IT is also mushroomed a bit. THAT is how many rounds have gone down it. I have done some really abusive tests to that gun though, when noone knew what it was or to expect from it. I ALSO prefer 15 pellet 3" buck out of it, so i dont really care if it takes a beating. My solution? keep shooting it to death, keep it loaded, and buy one out of company stock NIB to stick in the closet just in case. It is NOT overgassed. In fact, it has one mostly blocked port, and only has 3 ports, and is an early EAA import. It is the ONLY shotgun i have fired since i bought it, for the most part. Apart from some CGW testing and such, all 12 gauge rounds have gone down it in my many MANY outings in NY with it. This particular gun is SO important to me, that I sent it out of state ahead of me a year before i left NY, when the drums were going to happen. Im taking no chances with the best gun ive ever owned. I may actually get a second "prettier" friend for it soon. It may contain a buffer, though......but it wont be the one I reach for when i hear a bump in the night.... I really need to replace the buffer in my beater marlin mod 60. I can pick charcoals off with it with iron sights even still out at 75 yards every time once i get warmed up. It deserves to not break itself from cheap manufacturing and heavy use. If you want a very thin buffer, use a piece of tire inner tube. LIKE I SAID, i would TAKE the buffer out of my x39 if i ever had to take it and put my life on it. My s12 does NOT have one in it because it is my primary defense weapon. Im not "tweaking" anything on it. If it wants to wear out, thats fine, ill replace or fix it if it ever does. It is the weapon I would reach for if the time came. Im not touching crap on it. I KNOW it wont fail me when I need it. Ive tried to make it fail, and have not been able to do so. casually, i dont mind a few malfunctions, if any, here and there. but when needed? dont mess with a good thing!!! GET THAT THING OUTTA THERE. (my theory on what causes buffer caused jams in AKMs is the fact it can and probably does flop around a little, because of the way it inserts, adding length to the actual buffering of the bolt return. THIS i believe causes the jamming problems in AK patterns with buffers in them, after many thousands of rounds, and I completely agree with the naysayers because of this) there are good AND bad to this topic. I know both. buffers DO work, and work well, BUT dont put one in your primary weapon. PERIOD. I wont be picking up something out of spec. to feed me when I am hungry, or to answer a noise outside my home. but casually shooting? hell yeh. I can see already that I am going to have to argue this irrelevant point to a few of you, and thats ok. Ill join cobra with a few pics of my own soon. you can decide for yourselves if its worth it. yehp, you heard me, i have to agree with cobra on this one for casual use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waynebar 52 Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would like to say Thank You to everyone who took time to reply to my question. This is the first message board I've ever posted to, I do read several others, and I must admit you all seem to be very honest, and knowledgeable, I appreciate that very much. Before I make the decision of modifying, and or how much, and by whom, either a pro or myself I'll be posting other inquires, hope I don't seem too dumb with my questions. Thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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