S-12 stock options- accessories?

[Gunfighter84 0]

First, to those who saw the video of the Kuwaiti guy ruining his shoulder with the .577 TR, once I get on a computer at home I'll see if I can translate it, or, barring that, any of my friends can. Long story short I hang out with a lot of Arabs.

 

Next, everyone on here wants to saddle their S12 with a pistol grip stock, but wouldnt it be possible to just mate the thing to an ATI druganov-AK stock and have just as cool a gun? Not sure if the stock would take the pounding, but to be fair after shooting my S12 today for the first time, I dont find the recoil anything so bad that I'd imagine it splintering a good carbon-fibre stock.

 

The trigger modification looks simple enough, knock out the floor plate beneith the mechinism, replace with a standard AK trigger (would it fit? The whole setup LOOKS the same...) or may be even a Red Star Adjustable, tweak the guard a little bit, attach with some small screws and nuts, and the whole thing aught to operate just like any other AK-type. Before I came across the unfortunate issue of Post-94 Shotguns (I never had to deal with the problem so I didnt know...) my whole plan was to restore the trigger mechanism and simply put a K-VAR black Bulgie stock set on my S-12. I still might get ready for just that should by some miricle of God the bill goes into the oblivion it richly deserves next year and just saddle it with the affore mentioned ATI druganov type in the meanwhile.....

 

Anderson

[fixerbob 0]

Bad news--Makc has mentioned previously here that the only one we can modify right now legally is the 410 model. I had done some checking before that and contacted the folks at AK-103.com for their opinion as they do a lot of Saiga conversions; NO modifications are allowed for the Saiga 12 or 20s involving moving the trigger or adding any other type of stock, including a Dragunov type.

 

As far as I can tell, the restriction is sourced from both the 94 AWB and the then-Treasury Secretary's DD classification of USAS-12s, etc.

 

The catch-all is the "sporting purposes" nonsense.

[Gunfighter84 0]

That makes no sense, a shotgun is a shotgun, .410 or otherwise. Moving the trigger and placing a non-pistol-grip replacement stock does nothing to violate any of the "evil features" clauses of the AWB, close maybe, close enough that a commerical operation wouldnt want to tackle it, but I've yet to see any proof that its over the line.

 

Someone tried to pass the line that a thumbhole style stock still constituted a pistol grip, but indeed it doesnt, otherwise hundreds of thousands of post-ban AKs in this country with foreign thumbhole stocks on them, would be illegal. Furthermore, going along with that line of thinking the stocks that Saigas come with from the factory constitute a "pistol grip" style as well, and were what a shooter or gunsmith would have immidietly thought of had the word "pistol grip" come up, long before the seperate, long protruding type of grip, ala Thompsons and AK-47s ever came about.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is before you convince me not to undertake my operation, I'd realy like to see some cold hard laws here, code, paragraph and line. Personaly I believe we all should give the AWB a big "F*U*" and let them try to arrest every AK owner who decides to put a bayo lug back on his rifle, kind of like Ghandi and his sea-salt thing IMHO. The liberals do it all the time, I think turn about is fair play. If we present a united front what choice would they have? Then again I'm no longer civilian property, so I wont say anymore than "I believe" with that idea, at least for a few years....

 

The next gunshow isnt for a while so if you want to convince me I'm playing the fool here, you've got time. Hell, I *might* even call the JBTs themselves and see what they can come up with, but I realy fail to see how a non-seperate pistol-grip stock and a trigger job constitutes a 922 violation, having dealt with that B!#ch for what, heh, the whole 10 years of my shooting and collecting life. Damn, thats right...I was 14 when the whole AWB bill started, convinced my old man that there wouldnt be any more, so he'd better sign for an SKS for me quick. Got gouged too, but I got my first real rifle that summer, a brand new Norinco SKS. Cosmoline and all.

 

Anderson

[fixerbob 0]

I know it doesn't make any sense, but this is the same bureaucracy that measures a .50 bore from groove to groove to make a .50 BMG pistol a DD while measuring that very same bore on a rifle from land to land. The same thought process goes into making the distinction between 12 & 20 ga and .410 because 12 and 20 are gauges and .410 is a bore diameter.

[PvtPyle 0]

I contacted the ATF and they told me that they had yet to rule that the Choate stock on the S-12 was a pistol grip. I moved my trigger group around and put the stock on it , then took it to the compliance guy here in town and said no problem.

 

As for the restrictions on the AW ban shotguns, the same thing applies to them that does on a rifle.

 

The law defines firearms as "assault weapons" by one or both of two methods: name and description. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(30)]. All told, the law affects more than 175 semi-automatic rifles, pistols and shotguns and revolving cylinder shotguns a cross-section of firearms of various sizes, shapes, and calibers/gauges. Under the law, the term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means:

 

any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as: Norinco, Mitchell, Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); Action Arms I.M.I. UZI and Galil; Beretta AR-70 (SC70); Colt AR-15; Fabrique Nationale FN-FAL/LAR, and FNC; SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; Steyr AUG; Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22; and revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12; (you are not making a copy of any of the shotguns listed as DD's)

 

a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:

1) a folding or telescoping stock;

2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

3) a fixed magazine in excess of five rounds;

4) and an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

 

 

 

The ruling of certain shotguns as DD"s, that had NOTHING to do with the bore size. It had to do with the fact that they did not meet the sporting purposes clause, and the fact that they can deliver an overwhelming amount of firepower very quickly. That came striaght from the ATF's green book, in the back under rulings, pp148 IIRC. They detail each shotgun and what threw it into that catagory. Just because you put a p-grip on a Saiga does not make it a DD. They did not outline specific terms and features that would classify other shotguns as DD's based on changeable features in that ruling. You still fall under the AW ban due to the detachable mag. Now if you can add 10 us made parts, you could put the p-grip on it, just like you could a MAK-90.

 

The reason most wholesalers dont want people putting p-grips on their Saigas is because the ATF could just as easily come back and rule them a DD and the wholesalers and importers would be stuck with a ton of inventory that they could only sell to people as NFA weapons. (If they do that, you can bte it will include ALL Saigas because they all take the 5rd and 8rd mags). That means shipping it to your state and selling it thru a class 3 dealer with a $200 tax to the feds. But I would bet money that this exact thing ends up happening either before or shortly after the AW Ban expires, because then you can add whatever you want to it, and the LEO shotguns (like the one pictured in my thread and on the banner) will become available to civilians.

 

The same AW Ban rules, and DD rules apply to these guns as AK's. Dont get confused and think that because it has a p-grip that it makes it a DD. You are currently only bound by the AW Ban as to what you can do with these guns. (when the ATF gets a wild hair, then that will probably change).

 

And in speaking with Chris at AK-103 (where I got my LEO gun and 3 more just like it), they are not making these guns there, they came into the country like this and until the AW Ban goes away, they cant get any more. But he said it is doubtful that they will get more then because of the sporting purposes clause. That still does not mean that following the AW Ban laws (as long as they last) that you can not modify it in accordance with these laws.

Edited May 25, 2003 by PvtPyle

[emclean 0]

has anyone found any laws that would make a saiga a DD if you add a PG and folding stock after the death of the AWB?

[ForGreatJustice 1]

Technically, no "law" makes a shotgun a DD.

 

The Gun Control Act of '68 defines a DD as anything explosive, or with a bore diameter over .50" except for shotguns that are suitable for sporting purposes. It then requires registration of all such arms.

 

What *makes* any given shotgun a DD is the interpretation of the ATF, an executive agency that is charged with enforcing the GCA of '68. When the ATF rules a shotgun a DD, they are effectively saying "we will now enforce the law in this manner, as if Shotgun X is a DD".

 

Wierd, but true. Now, if you take issue with that, you are free to spend lots of money and time in court trying to prove the ATF wrong.

 

The Saiga 12 has never been ruled a DD.

 

The only rulings on DDs have been with respect to specific models of shotguns.

 

If 4 Saiga parts are replaced with U.S. made parts, it becomes a US made weapon, at least, based on the way the ATF has ruled on other AK variants. Note that any parts you ADD (such as a Pistol grip) must be American made to prevent the Saiga's foreign parts count from reaching 10 or more.

Edited August 28, 2004 by ForGreatJustice

[Bvamp 604]

i have a feeling the DD will be designated on the saiga if large cap mags are made available to the public here, or at least the mags themselves will designate as DD when clipped loaded to a firearm.....who knows.

[USMC_LB 4]

I do know this..... Once the AWB sunsets and if you have enough US parts to comply with 922® of the 1989 import ban. You can convert your Saiga into a pistol grip version and if the ATF finally deems the Saiga 12 in this form a DD then you will not have to pay the $200 tax....

[inparidel 4]

[beerslurpy 1]

i have a feeling the DD will be designated on the saiga if large cap mags are made available to the public here, or at least the mags themselves will designate as DD when clipped loaded to a firearm.....who knows.

Kerry has indiecated he wants to ban any gun that is in use by the military or police force of any country. This means no pump shotguns, etc etc. He will probably try to nail everything he can as a DD unless they repeal the "sporting purposes" clause of the 1968 act (which would actually be a good thing).

 

I wouldnt mind having "short barreled rifles" and "short barreled shotguns" made legal and reclassified as pistols since the only difference is cosmetic, as per the Thompson Center vs ATF lawsuit in 91.

[Bvamp 604]

well according to the "sporting purposes" deal with the ATF and congress, the saiga12 that i have would be legal till the next millenium, because it is one of if not the best shotguns ive used so far for skeet and birds....

[emclean 0]

are you trying to mix logic and law?

[USMC_LB 4]

Edited September 1, 2004 by USMC_LB