Rich 3 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Wonder if the ATF is going to deem the Saiga shotguns as non-sporting. Especially after 8 round sticks and 20 round drums become available, and folding stocks, pistol grips, flash hiders and bayo lugs are installed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Heh, thats the $200 question..... get all of your US compliant parts together so you can comply with the 1989 import ban and as soon as the AWB sunsets build your Saiga-12 as quick as possible. If the ATF makes a decision then you will be grandfathered in and not have to pay the $200 tax. I believe that the Saiga would only be subject to regualtion if you convert it to a non-sporting version which will be completely legal to do as long as you have no more than 10 imported parts and the rest of the parts are US made and the AWB sunsets... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 the thing is you can't use 8rd mags, 20rd drums, or folding stocks on post awb shotguns. and there are currently PLENTY of rem and moss shotguns with folding stocks, pistol grips, and bayo lugs to make any attempt to outlaw the s12 patently ridiculous...i hope anyway. but who knows with those super l33t churchburners... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 the thing is you can't use 8rd mags, 20rd drums, or folding stocks on post awb shotguns. why not? can you post a link to the laws perventing us from doing this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 (edited) Here's a link to the BATFE website in which the rulings of the USAS 12 and Streetsweeper/Striker-12 to be destructive devices are described. Scrool down to page 24, it starts at the bottom of the page(26 U.S.C. 5845 f 2). Click here for BATFE rulings on destructive devices. I'm not sure how the Saigas would be classified after the Assault Weapon Ban expires, makes me really wonder. It really doesn't sound good. As for the Remingtons and Mossbergs being classified as destructive devices, they don't have detachable magazines AND pistol grips, so that leaves them out of being classified as destructive devices. This will be interesting to see how it will turn out. AKATTACK Edited August 26, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 Those Remingtons and Mossbergs you all speak of are pump action models right? that makes a big difference. Even the '94 ban left them alone and regulated the semi-auto models like the Rem 1100 and the Benellis and Berettas that could have pistol grips and hold more than 5 rounds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 hey, i'm not speaking as an expert on these ridiculous laws, that's just the impression i've gotten from the posting of guys who seem to know what they're talking about here and on other boards. i think it frigging sux and wish to god it was otherwise! the rems and mossies are all either pump or semiauto with tube mags like the 1100/11-87, mossie 500/590, the benelli, and other more "traditional" shotguns. what i'm saying is that i hope our congresscritters would see that a saiga12 with a pistol grip and bayo lug is no more dangerous than an 11-87 or a mossie 590 with bayo lug, pistol grip, and folding stock - all perfectly legal, all used by police and military, none ever (or very rarely) used by thugs or homies...in fact the saiga12 is less "evil" because it cannot be legally equipped with a folding stock unlike a mossberg 500 or remington 870... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted August 26, 2004 Report Share Posted August 26, 2004 thanks for the link. well to make it a DD they wold have to drop the weight issue, my saiga is lighter than my pump. also the 5 rounders are the norm for the weapon, the high side of "normal", so i guess they would be left with looks. a lot depends on who in elected this year, all we can do is hope for the best. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twinhairdryers 2 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I can easily miss 5 consecutive shots at a fast moving bird. What isn't sporting about that? Especially since I have such a short barrel to follow with. I think my Browning A5 auto is more accurate than my lowly Saiga-12, much more unfair to the game in front of the bead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 The USAS and SS were classified as DDs under the "except those shotguns the secretary determines to have a sporting purpose" provision of the 1968 GCA, not as part of the AW ban. When the AWB sunsets, we will still be held liable for the 10 US parts count and for the ramifications of the administration possibly declaring the saiga a DD, at which point it will be confiscable or registerable (depending on the tack they take). There is no defense for us against the a DD declaration and whether it happens or not is a purely political decision. I think that it is inevitable if we get another democratic administration, since it only requires an administrative action (vs getting a law passed). It just means I wont be able to take it to the range anymore at that point, and I will have to keep an extra shotty around (something harmless looking like a walmart special dbl barrel) in case I ever have to justify to the police where any self-defense related buckshot came from. I dont think the police around here give much of a fuck what people kill criminals with, but better not to court trouble. I am mildly pissed that ashcroft hasnt reversed the USAS or SS DD findings. I have wanted a SS for a long time. (ok I really wanted a pancor jackhammer, but it is an impractical and utterly rare gun- 3 made?). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I can easily miss 5 consecutive shots at a fast moving bird. What isn't sporting about that? Especially since I have such a short barrel to follow with. I think my Browning A5 auto is more accurate than my lowly Saiga-12, much more unfair to the game in front of the bead. The StreetSweeper and USAS12 had extensive sporting uses when they were declared destructive devices. They could declare EVERY shotgun a destructive device if they wanted to. The law permits that (tho the american people probably wouldnt). The whole reason the 1968 GCA stinks is that it allows arbitrary banning of shotguns by an unelected official. (well one of many reasons it stinks). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 beerslurpy, I feel your pain of the desire for that Pancor Jackhammer! I'd take a H&K/Olin CAWS Candidate or even a Neostead. I totally agree with you about the ability of them to designate certain shotguns to be DD at their own will, it sucks! What part of "shall not be infringed" do they not understand. AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 And executive agencies with unelected officials making laws at whim... Yeah. Congress needs to do something about them one of these days. Preferably today, tommorrow would be nice too. Day after I wouldn't complain. Next week I'd still be thanking them. A year, well, I guess the stuff takes time. Several terms... yeah, I didn't think they were gonna do it anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Only reason anything gets called a DD is because it looks different, Its nor very Liberal to discreminate against stuff, Witch they do with EVERYTHING except people. So if they want to be truely Liberal they should allow all forms of weapons. Anyway, if mister "Gun guy" kerry gets in you can kiss your saiga and anything with more then a bolt action and anything with more then 1 shot illeagal, so everyone should get out there and support bush as much as you can. *i know i cant spell* Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 Guys, the battle is no longer at the federal level(I am sure we cannot take our eyes off congress or the white house for an INSTANT-they are politicians),but the front lines are at the state level! Here in the peoples republik of maryland ALL SAIGA's are "controlled weapons" like hand guns and 'assault weapons'. The law requires more paperwork than a mortgage,a MANDITORY 7 day waiting period(state gov. working days that is) and restricted to 1 in a 30 day period. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
emclean 0 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 seeing about what other states are doing makes me glad i cmoe to indiana. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 27, 2004 Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 For every state that is trying to disarm their citizens, there are a dozen states passing better self defense immunity laws and concealed carry laws. Florida permits all nfa weapons and is a shall issue state among many other cool things. We also dont have smog check. It is ironic that I can more easily own a silencer or machine gun than an ak47 with a pistol grip. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 For every state that is trying to disarm their citizens, there are a dozen states passing better self defense immunity laws and concealed carry laws. Yeah, but it's only a matter of time before enough Goddamn liberals move into sane states such as yours and try to change things to suit how they think things should be. I'm telling you (and I know I blow smoke out my ass alot), but stupidity is alot like cancer. Once it takes hold (like in many places on the Eastern seaboard and in Cali.), it's just gonna spread as the brainwashed masses fan out to new, warmer climates. You already hear horror tales of transplanted Cali. liberals moving to places like Nevada and Arizona that start screaming for tougher gun control laws even though gun crimes are traditionally low in places such as this. I'm telling you (and I hate to say this), but I believe we are in the last twenty years of legal firearm ownership in this country. I hope I'm wrong about that though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 gaddis: you mirror my fears....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I'm telling you (and I hate to say this), but I believe we are in the last twenty years of legal firearm ownership in this country. I hope I'm wrong about that though. Not likely. You guys dont see that the pendulum has swung pretty much as far as it can in the shitty direction already. People in the UK are finally getting sick of high gun crime rate in a country that has outlawed EVERYTHING for years now. It is pretty much impossible to legally get anything more powerful than a pellet gun but people are getting robbed and/or capped with guns now. It is shocking to many how easy it is to get a gun illegally. I think it is only a matter of time before people start carrying illegally. People in the AU have had the "it will never happen" wakeup call. Hopefully they get off their asses and finally do something about it. In this country things are a bit better. Gun rights became a 3rd rail topic after the 94-96 elections where the democrats lost out bigtime. Kerry is historically speaking one of the most rabidly antigun politicians in the country but even he is afraid to say anything but "I love guns and I go hunting." He knows that a gun grabber will not be able to beat bush, and that gun grabbing will make him a one term president. That doesnt even touch on the great strides that "shall issue" has made in the states. The NRA and YOU GUYS are doing a great job of making sure that only pro gun politicians get elected and only sensible laws get enacted. Sure, we are only a small drop in the bucket in CA and NY and MD, but if we were 100 percent of the population this wouldnt be an issue for debate would it? Just keep doing what you are doing guys. Pay attention to how your reps and sentators vote and send them letters reminding them what the hot topic is to win/lose your vote. And dont forget to vote. Send them a letter afterwards reminding them that you voted based on their performance on 2nd ammendment issues. If they get enough letters they will connect the dots. The NRA ILA website has links to help you contact your representatives. Use it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Um, okay (you might be right). How's about a little experiment though? How's about running a poll on the forum here and over on REC.GUNS (a nice tidy slice of gun owners demographically) and ask them to *TRUTHFULLY* tell you who they are planning on voting for this election? You'd be suprised how many of them really just hate George W. out of principle, and them refusing to go out and cast a vote just helps Kerry along (I'm sure the stupid Hollywood elite will put down the coke straw long enough to help ole Johnny Boy get elected though). I still am predicting we will see a Columbine type of massacre (or another sniper incident) maybe in a big shopping mall in the United States somewhere before the November elections get here thus cementing the fence-sitting soccer moms resolve to get out and vote this time. Maybe the Aussies and English can teach you to hide unconfrontationally under a blanket like they are instructed to do after your firearms are confisticated and someone breaks into your house in the firearms-friendly "safe" state you currently reside in? Yeah, things are not going to change anytime soon....riight!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Beeerslurpy-You got it man. We need to keep pushing that pendulem back in the direction of sanity. It makes no difference who you vote for- what makes the biggest difference is to let the gungrabbers know WHY we will NOT vote for them. The politicians need to know that it is political suicide to support efforts of the radical left to rescind the 2nd ammendment! Bush has already said that he would support an AWB extension-Kerry isn't saing anything. I see neither as a friend of the bill of rights. Let's keep the pressure on ALL of them! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 Guys Im not saying to be complacent, I'm saying that we have to adopt the tactics of other successful groups. Lets take social security for instance. The social security system is on the verge of bankruptcy. But do you hear a single politician even mutter anything that sounds even remotely like "lets trim back social security"? No, of course not. Every politician knows that cutting granpa's check is political suicide, a fact the AARP strives to remind all politicians of contantly. What do old people do that most gun owners dont? They write their congressman. They vote. They watch their politicians to make sure they arent trying to sneak something through. Most gun owners say to themselves "theyll never take MY guns" or "I cant beleive they just passed another bullshit law." Many times politicians in non-commie states will go along because they see it as an opportunity to appear tough on crime while passing a mostly meaningless law. It is our job to remind them that long after the PR boost from the ban passing is gone, we will still remember which way they voted and punish them for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 when they try (note the word try) to come take my guns if they ever ban them all, then is when i will be aggitated in my support of my god-given right to bear arms and defend myself, my property, etc etc. my point is.....if you start yellin, banging fists, acting all aggressive to an extreme, screaming at people, what does that say? i see them thinking that us, with the guns, are prone to be violent. that is how i see it. we need to wheel and deal with these people, whether we like it or not, and we will come out on top. its a shame that we even need to fight this, but like ive said before in here, you cannot expect me to be like you, nor can I expect you to be like me. that is what makes the world what it is. guns arent the end all be all, but it is what ultimately protects us as individuals, and make the USA so great in it's triumphs. Ask the british if they are happy that we arent at war with them anymore. ask the germans, ask the japaneese. they can attest what being brought up with guns and being free does to an army when that army is called upon. If they do try to seize all guns, there will be a war. bottom line. and the guys that have been brought up with the guns, and take them so seriously is who FIGHT the wars. so, who do you think will win? i have my bet placed. Im not really worried about it. we need to be responsible for those around us that would harm those without the ability to protect themselves. we need to teach our children to respect others, no matter what. this in a nutshell is how i see it. that is the real issue. then whoever is out shooting people with illegal weapons, or even LEGAL weapons, will face thier neighbors, friends, family. THAT is the issue, and as long as that doesnt go away, what are we to do? we HAVE to talk to these idiots that think that its the guns that kill people. ive never heard of a gun just "going off" unless you cook a round off because you were stupid and left your gun loaded after shooting for an hour straight. registration isnt about the guns....its about who has them. THAT is what they are after, NOT the guns. I think that is what i am trying to say. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 That post was more disorganized than two dogs fucking a styrofoam cooler. I agreed with the parts of it I could understand, but you need to seriously edit it and split it into sentences and paragraphs and stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted August 29, 2004 Report Share Posted August 29, 2004 LOL you shoulda caught me 20 years ago when i first found the internet if you wanted punctuation and good grammar friend. if you got any of it, cool. if not, fine. suit yourself. I like the analogy, by the way. that one is a first for me, and i hope you didnt get it during a hunting trip...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 (edited) When writing or telephoning/E-mailing ect. politicians,I have found a few handy phrase substitutions, these may help some of you in your editing. IF YOU SAID ---------- CHANGE IT TO You stupid asshole---------------Dear Senator I'll shoot your ass----------------I reserve my rights under the 2nd ammendment ignorant fu@#ing liberal---------radical left wing you theiving moron--------------Dear congressman I hope your c@$k falls off and you live forever-----Yours truely G O B Edited August 30, 2004 by G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Well if it comes right down to it and the goverment trys to take away out weapons, We should use them for what the amendments tell us to do with em, fight back no matter the odds untill we win our freedom! Thats the whole reason they wrote the "freedom to bear arms" amendments. People dont realize how powerful they are in massive numbers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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