AKATTACK 5 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Hey guys, I'm trying to make up my mind, and need to do it fast! Which is the one to get, I'm sure that I want the 19" barrel, but should I get the multi-choke equipped model or the cylinder bore model? I wonder if the BATFE will classify the chokes as a "muzzle attachment", I'm kinda leaning toward "no" since it does nothing to enhance the muzzle-climb or the flash-suppression of the gun. But if the BATFE does rule it as a "muzzle attachment", that's one more foreign part. So what should I do? I plan on converting whichever one I get, so any insight would be appreciated. Also, does anyone know if the 19" multi choke model comes with adjustable sights, or the fixed sight that the non multi-choke model comes with? I know exactly where both models are in stock so all I have to do is order one. THANKS GUYS!! AKATTACK Edited September 7, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 You could buy a long barrel, full choke gun. Then cut the barrel and have a gunsmith thread the muzzle for Remmington choke tubes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Guys, could you explain to me some things? I've been reading some themes related to Saiga-12 and got a number of questions. I'd like to know which Saiga12 models are imported to US. I mean what barrel length, stock type, sight type. I understood that you ain't abble to buy shotguns with pistol grip. Is it true? What about pistol grip + short barrel, folding stock? I somewhere readed that such gun might be considered as assault weapon and, in this case, would not be permitted. Right? I own Saiga-12K 'Tactics' (barrel length 17''; barrel type - cylinder + muzzle devices; pistol grip; folding stock, stock type - frame; adjusting sight; lath for optic sight). This is hunting gun in our land and may be free sell by appropriate licence. As I undestood there are some problems in US with purchasing such weapon. Or not? Am I right? What does one mean saing "sporting gun", "hunting gun" or "assault gun". Could you explain all written above? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 what you own is only allowed to be sold to law enforcement officers here, or other people that get around the ordinary civilian status for gun-carrying jobs. Not a very fair law, and doesnt make sense more than 1/2 the time. your question has an extremely long answer that someone else might want to clarify for you but if you ask me? "What does one mean saing "sporting gun", "hunting gun" or "assault gun". " a gun is a gun. it is almost like saying that you have a free right to speech, then censoring what you say, even if you are the only one that would say it. for instance calling someone a racial slur is a crime here. your particular saiga would only be available to police and other people of the sort (half of them buy them through work not to use at work anyway, so i say what the hell, let us all have em) once the laws that have been blocking the sale of certain firearms in certain configurations is dropped from the books next week, that might all change, but the individual states are already in motion trying to make thier own laws for guns/parts/configurations/magazines as we speak. EAA corp is the primary importer of saiga shotguns, check thier website for what is commonly availible. like i stated before, if you have the right paperwork, you can get anything you want. most people abuse this and dont buy the stuff for work, but for thier own personal use, also as I stated before. A short barreled weapon is a BIG no-no here. only very few people here are legally allowed to have say, a true krinkov or AMD65 with 12.5" barrel. the rest of the options have to follow a parts count list and you can only have so many features on any single gun, AND you have to have at LEAST 5 US made parts in the various military type weapons out there that werent made in america. Im just running over what you asked, and this is by no means at ALL even close to a total explanation of your question. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Thanks, Bvamp! It's exactly what I wanted to hear. Another questions. You said: "the rest of the options have to follow a parts count list and you can only have so many features on any single gun, AND you have to have at LEAST 5 US made parts in the various military type weapons out there that werent made in america." 1) What features do you mean? 2) In other words, 5 saiga's parts must be made in US? Further. You also said: "A short barreled weapon is a BIG no-no here". What about pistol? This is genuine short barrel! I don't remember where did I get it from, but I know (maybe I'm wrong) that such gun might be free sold in US. I could notice I'm not abble to buy a real pistol, only with rubber/elastic bullet or gas based cartridges. That is "BIG no-no". But, maybe, that's right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) features will change for legality to be all legal in a few days here in the USA, due to one set of gun laws expiring on the 13th of sept. us made parts mean made in USA. right now it stands at 10 us parts, and that is part of the law that will be going away, making it back to 5 parts. AS FAR AS I KNOW! I am waiting to dive back into the lawbooks until after they make up thier mind in Congress this week. If you tried reading the ATF laws in thier entirety, you would suffer a mild stroke. pistol is a handgun. short barreled long arm is a no-no. the weapon is classed as either a "long arm" or "handgun" or "shotgun" by action type and manufacturer's specification. Taking a handgun and putting rifle stocks and barrel on the "frame" for a conversion is totally legal to do, but if you take a longarm or shotgun and shorten it down to be a pistol or short barreled weapon is highly illegal. There are some ways around these laws as it stands now, but it is expensive, and you must have proper credentials to obtain these types of guns. Also, to make matters even more complicated, certain weapons are restricted in the US parts count area, like military type weapons, such as those built on the traditional AK47 reciever. the law that will change in respect to that is what i was talking about above. I for one cannot wait to have to re-read the ATF laws to see what is and is not LEGAL now. there are others here that can clarify what im trying to tell you, as well as maybe correct me if i am misinformed on something. oh yeh, almost forgot to mention, there are laws saying what projectiles and some major firearm's components' ALLOYs can be composed of as well. thats another law buried amongst the garbage that the soccer mom anti-gun people passed, that didnt do a damn thing but piss a bunch of people off. Edited September 7, 2004 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 7, 2004 Report Share Posted September 7, 2004 Vladimir- We are not allowed pistol grips,SAIGA's we get have the trigger moved back. Barrels on rifles must be longer than 16" and shotguns longer than 18'. We can use 4 U.S. made parts, and then the SAIGA is no longer "imported" (by law) and is then "domestic". Domestic guns can have more "evil" features. This makes no sense to us either, but that is the law. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shotgun_lobotomy 0 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 its only $5 stamp for a shorty shotgun with the paperwork and a long wait Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 8, 2004 Report Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ok. Thanks for answering me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JBONE 0 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 Just to clarify the above. The transfer on a short barreled shotgun or rifle is $200. The transfer on a Any Other Weapon is $5. AOW's must be made on a virgin reciever and have no stock. If the gun has ever had a stock attached it will be a SBS/SBR. Careful read up before you attempt anything. Not legal advise, just what I have learned. Take it for what its worth. JBONE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKATTACK 5 Posted September 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 (edited) JBONE, I'm sure the transfer on a short barreled rifle is $200.00. But I think the transfer on a short-barreled shotgun, since it is a smoothbore, is $5.00. I'm not sure what the transfer on a Destructive Device would be. AKATTACK Edited to add:I have a 19" Saiga 12 ga. on the way!!! Edited September 10, 2004 by AKATTACK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted September 10, 2004 Report Share Posted September 10, 2004 AKATTACK: yer gonna LOVE it. take a pic of the grin it puts on your face for us will ya? mine gets wider every time i shoot mine, and i forgot what the look on my face originally was when i shot mine for the first time. LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave_A 0 Posted September 13, 2004 Report Share Posted September 13, 2004 US Gun laws: NFA: SBS, SBR, MG, DD are all $200 tax for transfer and making. AOW is $200 tax to MAKE, $5 to transfer Pistols are considerd 'pistols', not short rifles, unless they have a stock or shoot shotgun shells. A shotgun pistol under 18" is an 'AOW', and a normal pistol with a stock attached and a bbl under 16" is a SBR... AWB: Dead, gone, kaput. It used to be that we couldn't have a semiauto shotgun with a pistok grip and any of the following: folding stock, detatchable mag, more than 5rds capacity. Well, untill today anyway. 1968 Gun Control Act This established 'sporting purposes' tests for imported guns and shotguns over .410. In the late 80's and 90s, Presidents George Bush Sr & Bill Clinton dieected that certain military-style imported guns be declared 'non sporting'. A similar directive made the USAS and Striker-12/Streetsweeper 'Destructive Devices'. The first law requires that no more than 10 parts of an imported gun be made in a foreign country. So we import guns like the Saiga in a 'less-mean-looking' configuration, replace all but 10 parts, and then we can make them 'normal' again... The magic number (of parts to replace) for stamped AK variants is '5', for milled AKs it's '4' and for FALs it's '6'. So now, what was LEO only is legit, just check your partscount... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 14, 2004 Report Share Posted September 14, 2004 Clear! Has assault weapon ban expired today? Congratulations! Unfortunately similar law doesn't give me a chance to buy a rifle gun I so want. But the fact doesn't consist in gun parts. I have to wait for 5 (!) years since I purchased a shotgun to get a rifle. The law says I must own plain barrel gun at least for 5 years to get rifle weapon licence. (( Sure I might have some appropriate profession to buy it free but I haven't and don't want to have for the sake of gun only. 5 years... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Vladimire- Ouch! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 That is insane. I have been shooting regular rifled barrel guns since I was 16 years old. They are practically unregulated here. I am going to go to a gun show this weekend and see if I can pick up an AK this weekend. By the way, I was thinking of Beslan today and I remembered that it was the first day of school with like 500 students and 1000 parents plus teachers. If that had been florida, there would have been at least 20 or 30 concealed carry permits among the parents that day and the terrorists would have been easily outnumbered. Guns are technically not allowed in schools, but there have been enough incidents (colombine massacre) that people generally ignore the rule and do it anyway. If I was living in any of the regions around Checnya, I would break the law and still carry a pistol of some sort just in case (not to mention crime lol). In america, al queda is sort of a joke, but in Russia you really have terrorists running around the country killing people. Scary! It would be like for us if Mexico was full of people running across the border to kill instead of to pick fruit. I would go insane without the ability to have guns if I lived in Russia. I dont see the point of disarming the citizens. If the government is serving the people, why would they ever have to fear revolt? Its not like the criminals are waiting 5 years to get a rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Don't compare Florida or another USA's state or another land's region with Ingushetia. Incomparable. You say there would have been 20-30 barrels among parents? And so? Have all parenst gone through a combat training? Or maybe all they are SWAT's soliders? I'm sure this cant stop terrorist. They know that they could be killed. And they are raedy fot that. Do you realy trust that a gun being in you hands will save you in any case? There were no parents or others civil peoples with gun, but there were several military. But they had no longer been abble to shoot terrorist because they could easy touch peoples. And it is not important for terrorists whom to shoot. Moreover, let's imagene I'm sitting in the office & working. I have AK, Saiga, rifle 'Tiger', handguns and other weapon beyond my back. And I'm watching how the big airplane is going right to my window. What will I do with this lot of gun? Scary... Whole world is scary. If you break law then law breakes you. I think you are confusing something. We can purchase gun for self-defense. It's true there are a lot of restrictions but it is that. I own Sayga (look at the left). This is my private gun. And this is very scary weapon in skillful hands. I can't buy rifle gun as soon as I want if I'm ordinary citizen. But I think I can get the paperworks to do it. But this is another song... What it's important that we can't buy handgun generally. I'm not permitted to buy and carry handgun. And I trust this government's decision is right. I imagine what it will be that anyone carries handgun... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 Few words about 'revolt'. I don't know what are you watching by TV but I cant remember any revolt there. Most ones doing this inhuman things lives beyond Russia. Exactly in this case half of the terrorists were arabs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I dont know what news you get in russia, but so far no arabs have been produced from among the terrorists, either dead or alive. The one they captured sure looked like a russian to me. If there were arabs amongst the terrorirsts, let them be shown on TV. Surely, they were Muslims, but this is obvious, as all Chechens are. A gun for self defense is useless if you dont carry it when you are attacked. Do you think anyone in Ingushetia would choose to be without a handgun at all times, being right across the border from chechenya? And the point is that youi dont NEED "special swat training" to defend yourself or your family. Civilians have been shown to be more accurate and responsible for fewer accidental deaths. Most civilians I know spend more time practicing marksmanship than police officers. When I was in NYC, it was common to meet police officers who had never fired their gun in 20 years, even in practice. Often they pull the gun out and miss targets 5 feet away with 20 or 30 bullets. Were they closing their eyes? I doubt russian police officers are any more competent. And do you really trust spetsnaz to do a good job of rescuing your family after they have been taken hostage and putin only gives the order "kill all the terrorists"? Wouldnt you rather die fighting to prevent the hostage taking in the first place, than be killed when your special forces fuck up, yet again? If you want to see a great example of civilian gun ownership stopping terrorists, look to israel. They have real arabs that are trying to murder them every day. The story about the palestinians with Ak 47s and grenades trying to murder people at a crowded market is proverbial. All the civilians pulled out guns and shot them. Almost no one was hurt amongst the civilians, even though individually they might have been less skilled or less haevily armed than the terrorists. Similar things have happened in south africa, until recently when the black government started disarming everyone. Why not compare Ingushetia to Florida? Both are regions with poor economy and poor education. Both are regions with violent immigrant population (here we have cubans- see Scarface movie?), smuggling and corrupt government. Florida used to have very high crime and murder. Way way above everywhere else in US. Then they passed concealed carry law. Murder drops 40 percent in first year and keeps going down. Has not gone up in 20 years. If concealed carry can work in Florida, it can work in any place on earth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 "but so far no arabs have been produced from among the terrorists, either dead or alive" Realy? There was even one negro. It had been said and is already known there were ~10 arabs and one negro. "let them be shown on TV" Have been shown... Not so as one would want but nevertheless. I saw, but... Can you distinguish an arab from a chechen when they being shown on TV? I can't. But the facts had been earlier. Not only arabs but other muslims (non-chechens) were met among terrorists. It is strange to doubt it. As more acts of terrorism I see as more I believe the chechens are peaceful people. They don't do it! To the point, ones that did it ain't terrorists! They are murders! They have come and saing nothing killed childerns! I think you don't understand what is going on. I think it would'n be worse if they had gun. But I'm talking about whole system and whole land but not about particular case! I'm not sure all should have handgun. I can shot anyone in the darkness, take his money and say after that he's attacked me. Of cource I need a gun right at the moment. I would be glad if you say when I will be attaked. Should I have gun on myself every time and wait an attack? Paranoia... "I doubt russian police officers are any more competent..." Me too. And I spend time in practice. But I know many civilians which do not do that. They purchased gun I think they can all. Yes, I realy thrust spetsnaz. But they makes one mistake. Instead to assault immediately they are too late or ain't going to assault as in Beslat's case. Sure Putin didn't say "kill em all". You said unsense. But were I the president I would say that! Terorists must know they will be killed ASAP. Only that they can be stopped. Only that. And Israel is realy great example. "arabs that thar are trying to murder them every day". And every week explosions sounds over whole Israel. Smal Israel, smal people... And they have been living that for a long time. Did you want to say all is ok in Israel due to free gun owning? Explosions, explosions, explosions! But they have AK47! How many muslims live in Florida? When had Florida been in war? What last time? Or maybe a war had been somewhere near Florida? Florida isn't Ingushetia. Those peoples can't see a gun. They hate it. If the gun is permitted then one has no chance to understand is a man with a gun a terrorist on not. No matter what goverment, enducation... What about Africa... Ones still shot there!. Listen to me. You see only what you want to see. Or it has been shown to you that someone wants to show. Don't watch TV. Of cource you could say the same about me. But I won't discuss it here. I can't complety say what I want. My english is bad and too bad to talk free. I'm going to bed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
drooling idiot 1 Posted September 15, 2004 Report Share Posted September 15, 2004 I think it would be worse if they had (a) gun. But I'm talking about (the)whole system and not about (a) particular case! I'm not sure ( we) all should have (a) handgun. I can shoot anyone in the darkness, take his money and say afterthat he's attacked me. In the good ole U.S.A. in many states you have the right to carry a pistol openly ( not hidden) without licensing or training, to carry a pistol concealed which is common in more states you need to show that you have no criminal record , be 21 years or older and may need training to get your license. under the system for concealed carry of a pistol , people who qualify and are permitted to carry are very unlikely to commit petty crimes like you described. the positive part of having concealed pistols carried by common people is that crime drops because criminals find other work instead of risking picking the wrong target and getting shot. So by having 1% of honest people carry a hidden gun you scare 10 % of criminals into giving up crime. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Vlad, many people beleived as you did in this country before the florida experiment when they legalized concealed carry. Many expected there to be a massive increase in crime and accidents from all the citizens having guns. However, the opposite was found. Out of hundreds of thousands of licensed concealed carry permits, there was one wrongful (accident) use of a firearm and many many lawful ones in defense against people that were committing violent crimes. Even the people that were opposed to concealed carry here (especially the police in miami) were amazed that crime dropped so much and how few accidents and bad shootings were the result. Many have admitted that they were looking very hard for examples of bad behaviour by gun carriers, but they amazingly found none and admitted it. Pretty much everyone has admitted that concealed carry in florida was the main reason that other states have allowed it since then. The reason concealed carry works to reduce crime is not because of the actual use of the gun (which is very rare, usually the criminal runs away), but because the criminals know that many people have a gun and do not wish to risk being shot. The department of justice did interviews with many violent criminals in jail and it was found that most criminals did not fear the police since they were easy to avoid but did fear armed citizens. Many said they had decided against attacking citizens they beleived to be armed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 All gays from my shooting club and others... "All gays in my shooting club" ... Nice!!! It is very hard for a russian to don't confuse "guy" with "gay". Sorry... Please take it correctly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
drooling idiot 1 Posted September 16, 2004 Report Share Posted September 16, 2004 Say (to) me something interesting about saiga instead. OK, when are you going to start sending us raised front sites for our saigas? the sites aren't restricted in anyway i know of here , so why don't you see if you can get your hands on some to send to your "comrades" in the U.S. i'd think you could easily get 30.00 dollars U.S. for them , i'll take three Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vladimir 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Say (to) me something interesting about saiga instead. OK, when are you going to start sending us raised front sites for our saigas? Thank you for correcting me. Continue if it's not difficult for you. Man, it seems that you are ready to get a profit every time and everywhere. What is raised front site? I can't translate. I.e. i can't undestand. Front sights? Muzzle devices? Raised... Raised front anything... I'm looking at my saiga on the picture and thinking what it can be. Please explain. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
drooling idiot 1 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 this page has the raised front sites we all desperately want for our saigas. http://www.prodiz.ru/katalog/katalog1.html i like the looks of the ASD-AST 4 even thought its english translation mistakenly says its for the 20 GA. i think you could make a good profit for yourself with the ASD-M 3 version also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 boy We're gettin' around aren't we? we got assassin in england. vlad here, in russia. that's networking! I bet american dollars go real far over there, vlad you tell these boys you can't get something for nothing!! heheheheh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kevin_m4 0 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 Yes, thats what I want to add to it. And some cheaper mags too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted September 17, 2004 Report Share Posted September 17, 2004 (edited) Yes, thats what I want to add to it. And some cheaper mags too. GODDAM!!! wtf is that!!!??? I WANT ONE!!! hahahahahahaha hahahaha vlad said "negro"...hahahaha Edited September 17, 2004 by hardcorps1775 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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