Someone bring me up to date....we're talking drums now?

[hartzpad 0]

It's been a number of months since I checked in (been having a lot of fun with my 8 round Izhmash mags and my 10 round AGP mags.

 

1) Who is building drums for Saiga 12's?

 

2) Why is no one jumping on them for doing it?

 

3) What is the latest on speculation about Saiga 12's becoming DD's?

 

4) If they are declared DD's, will someone contact me so I can be sure to get my tax stamp ASAP?

 

Wow, I stop visiting for a few months and multiple people are talking about 20 round drums and I don't see any of the bitching that usually goes on with the mere mention of the "D" word....what has changed?

[Juggernaut 11,054]

It would take about 3 hrs over the phone to "'splain" it all.....

[hartzpad 0]

It would take about 3 hrs over the phone to "'splain" it all.....

 

 

Well...at least give me the Cliff's notes in about a paragraph worth of info. What has changed people's outlook on drums? And what is the ATF's current outlook on drums?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Hope ya didn't get tired of me bitching people out for mentioning the "D word"...like my job description FORCED me to do.

 

OK that wasn't entirely fair. Life comes at ya fast sometimes like a .308 round. Maybe it that's all it was...god I know how that is...

 

 

 

OK I'm feeling extra generous tonite. Two different people developed a 20 rd drum mag, that's right not an NLFD, a DRUM mag for the S-12. It was not welcomed here with a red carpet and rose petals. There was much bitching and moaning on all fronts, (again...see archives...no wait...Bvamp deleted that shit...nevermind) Then the maker of the first known drum contacted the owner of the forum (only after helping to get ME banned...YES ME!) Then between talking to him and bvamp he somehow convinced them both that all would be ok and the peasants rejoiced! ...Well not all of them. There are still some who fucking hate the idea and I'm not going to name names.

 

There you are now pretty much caught up. The rest is in a record length thread mostly full of bullshit and constant updates to appease impatient people.

 

Welcome back.

 

Sorry but it is still a very sore subject in my book.

Edited May 16, 2007 by Cobra 76 two

[KINGFISH 0]

Cobra said it best.....life is like a .308! hartzpad, sounds like you have alot of reading to do. Some interesting things have been taking place here on the ole forum. You have missed out on ALL of the action. P.S. Start saving for a drum

[mike12345 18]

Im all for more firepower.

 

Its probably too big and heavy to want to carry arround all the time. It screams home defense tho. giving you enough ammunition on tap you shouldent need spair mags, grab gun and go. You also wont need to carry it very far which is a plus because im sure its heavy when loaded with TAP 12 pellot 00B. It'll make a nice range toy also. In a combat shotgun roll I would rather have 8 or 10rd mags.

 

It may be worth buying one just for shits and giggles.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Sore for all of us because it hurt this forum.

 

My version is that the development of a drum was announced here against the clearly expressed position of this board. It was marketed with rude and profane words against everyone who opposed the idea, for which the developer has since apologized. He was banned from the forum and a misunderstanding among moderators caused Cobra to be banned by another mod. (I'm using the term misunderstanding very loosely and euphamistically.)

 

Then, another drum was advertised on its own site. Nothing this forum can do about that. So with the idea that drums are out there anyway, the drum developer who unwelcomely advertised here convinced the admin to allow him to post about it here. Since then we have seen a picture or two, a hand cycling video, and a live fire video that still didn't fire a complete drum without it falling out of the mag well.

 

So my version is that yes we are now TALKING drums, but they are far from on the market as they both show serious limitations. I wish very much that people attempting to make them had kept them to themselves until they were closer to market.

[hartzpad 0]

Wow....that is quite a change in just a few months. Is there any info about the ATF's take on this? I guess we'll wait and see. The problem is, once 1 person has a drum for sale, the people that never would have bought a drum because of DD fears (like me) will go ahead and buy one because if people are going to have them anyways, we don't want to be left out when Saigas are declared DD's and we don't have a drum.

[Bvamp 604]

hartzpad, you missed the part where cobra said he got banned and reinstated...LOL man, what a month that was.

 

we may actually use the mass email feature of this forum to contact EVERYONE here in one shot if the shotguns go DD. it might actually be a justifiable use of the "spam" button that we never use.

[scoutjoe 276]

we may actually use the mass email feature of this forum to contact EVERYONE here in one shot if the shotguns go DD. it might actually be a justifiable use of the "spam" button that we never use.

 

/sarcasim on

well there goes my plea of "oh really officer I had no idea"

/sarcasim off

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Regarding the ATF and DD status, they are more likely to rule it a DD if people keep asking them about it. It's like if your neighbor calls the cops on you even if you aren't doing anything wrong, the cops will give you some instructions so that no one can accuse them of not doing anything.

 

If the ATF wants to declare the S-12 a DD OR declare the combination of S-12+Drum a DD, let them take the initiative. Some people are so anxious about it becoming a DD in a non-DD state that they are actually prodding the ATF into doing something about it.

 

Ruling a mag + gun combination when there is no actual law on mag capacity would be a very slippery slope to get on. If the combo is ruled a DD, there is a higher likelihood that the DD ruling would ultimately land on all S-12s, and not stop there, but move on to SBSs, Mossberg 590s, p-gripped sporting shotguns, slug guns, and use your imagination from there.

[DevL 0]

Isnt it great we can get drums? Best thing ever for Saigas!!! Who cares if they go DD as long as you have one.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

If Saigas go DD, a few members of this site whose states don't allow DDs will mutate into zombies and eat all other Saigas and their owners.

 

And there's a big difference between a couple people working on drums and us being able to buy them. Not trying to join the unobtainium accusation crowd, but there seems to be a lot that needs to be done between now and the time we could actually buy them. I think we'll be lucky to see either in a workable 2.75" version by election time.

Edited May 16, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[Bvamp 604]

its ok, based on the launch dates of both drums, my saiga12 will be in a family member's hands in one of several states when they make thier minds up on it.

 

its sad that the government would seek to disallow me the best gun availible to protect my home with, but if thats how they want to be, so be it. Ill just go out of state, convert mine, sell it at the newly inflated price, and buy a 50 bmg with the money and touch it off for the governor of NY every weekend that hes home. Im sure he will LOVE that. I even know someone with property that adjoins his, so I may even get a little closer and REALLY annoy him with some loud gunfire EVERY weekend.

 

if the government would turn to the gun community for advice on how to write the laws that are needed, we wouldnt have to worry about bullshit like this in the first place. people that never owned a gun are NOT the ones that should be writing gun laws, when it is found that SOMETHING is needed. we can all see how much good they have done for us so far.

[Bill 0]

Ok ,I am going to weigh in here---I say just leave the available mags at 10 rounds. As much as a drum would be cool to have and great if the zombies-and others in a shtf situation- I am getting tired of CONSTANTLY having to fight to not be a felon due to some bs AWB,'registration' etc...NOT that I will stop fighting all the bs laws,rights being stripped ,constitution trampled ,etc because that is what being an USA Citizen is all about.

 

And the crap about getting Cobra banned by the owner of the company that is trying to make the drums!---FUK that guy--HE should be banned for trying some slimy 'politically/financially motivated' crap like that.....and if you read this and want to go some rounds or have a response-post it in the fight club area!

I think he is trying to get them on the market,use US as test guinea pigs so the bugs are worked out, and maybe somehow land a contract with the 'guvmint'----SO WHAT if ALL of us legal owners have to turn in ,'destroy' or 'register ' our saiga shotties due to his invention and the BATF crying foul and contradicting,coming up ANOTHER vague piece of paper concerning this and open to 'their interpretation', he will have is $$ still coming in.........

[kmoore 3]

Wow....that is quite a change in just a few months. Is there any info about the ATF's take on this? I guess we'll wait and see. The problem is, once 1 person has a drum for sale, the people that never would have bought a drum because of DD fears (like me) will go ahead and buy one because if people are going to have them anyways, we don't want to be left out when Saigas are declared DD's and we don't have a drum.

 

Right there with you bro! I certainly could have lived without one, I've been about half way in the market for a USAS-12 anyways ... But if they are going to be made, NO WAY I'm not buying one!!! Also, I'm in a different predicament. I design and run shotgun sidematches where the round count is pretty small. ~50 for 3 or 4 stages. I'm going to have to change things up in order for this to be even close to being fair ....

 

Regarding the ATF and DD status, they are more likely to rule it a DD if people keep asking them about it. It's like if your neighbor calls the cops on you even if you aren't doing anything wrong, the cops will give you some instructions so that no one can accuse them of not doing anything.

 

If the ATF wants to declare the S-12 a DD OR declare the combination of S-12+Drum a DD, let them take the initiative. Some people are so anxious about it becoming a DD in a non-DD state that they are actually prodding the ATF into doing something about it.

 

Ruling a mag + gun combination when there is no actual law on mag capacity would be a very slippery slope to get on. If the combo is ruled a DD, there is a higher likelihood that the DD ruling would ultimately land on all S-12s, and not stop there, but move on to SBSs, Mossberg 590s, p-gripped sporting shotguns, slug guns, and use your imagination from there.

 

Well said! Making a .gov agency look at something officially is not a good idea.

 

If Saigas go DD, a few members of this site whose states don't allow DDs ....

 

I wish I had saved it, but there was a citizen created list of the 50 states stances on DD's on ARFCOM. Guy had broken the DD's into several categories (explosives, large bore firearms, etc). There weren't many states that banned the LBDD's. I don't know if it was accurate, but he is a guru over there and I don't doubt it. I also am not going to bother to search 50 states laws. And certainly a state COULD change (but why would they). Anyway, I agree that the "registration is a PITA" = a good argument, but that "S12's will be banned for me" = possible overstatement.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

There is a state-by-state matrix of allowable NFA items listed here.

 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/...ist/nfa_faq.txt

 

You will have to scroll about three quarters of the way down the document to find it.

 

Tony

[DevL 0]

I have already purchased a SBR and silencer so the Saiga becoming a DD and needing paperwork is no big deal. I do have a question though. If a Saiga is registered as a SBS and it gets declared a DD do you have to pay a $200 fee or will there be a grace period without the fee or what? The only negative to me would be having to register as a $200 fee SBS then pay another DD $200 tax. I will admit that would suck.

[kmoore 3]

There is a state-by-state matrix of allowable NFA items listed here.

 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/...ist/nfa_faq.txt

 

You will have to scroll about three quarters of the way down the document to find it.

 

Tony

That looks like the exact list that was posted on ARFcom, thanks a lot, I was wanting to copy it.

 

So, the Saiga would be a LBDD, and that means that the states that outright ban it (with no changes to state law) if it becomes a DD would be ...

HI,MO,MT and NJ. IL gets a ? in the list. Localities may also enact restrictions, and they aren't covered in this list.

 

This may save you a little shipping Bvamp?

 

I don't know of the accuracy of this research, and it is claimed to be accurate as of the end of 2001, but I've used this the .cs.cmu.edu site before with confidence ...

 

When I first saw this listing, the light bulb that went off in my head was .. DD's aren't all lumped together, that states make rulings on the type of DD's.

I know that VA has provision against named DD's (streetsweeper and striker 12) but not against a LBDD, hence allowing USAS12 ownership.

[mccumber1916 1]

There is a state-by-state matrix of allowable NFA items listed here.

 

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/...ist/nfa_faq.txt

 

You will have to scroll about three quarters of the way down the document to find it.

 

Tony

 

thanks tony... great link

i feel edumacated a little now

[robert-hopson 0]

basically these are peaple who have a boatload of money and dont care about the rest of us and dont realize alot of current owners now wont be then so less market means less available accessories for them being there will be a smaller market but why should they care they got there drum and screw us they dont mine screwing thereselfs a little as long as they screw us a lot. as long as therwe happy they will run over any body I personaly dont need my name on another list its allready on the one of peaple they trained to kill from afar.

[Bvamp 604]

the newer NY laws cause me to be concerned in this particular gun's case. I am not paying shipping. it is already sold to my father for one dollar and I am getting the bill of sale's date notarised by my neighbor this weekend, and next week or the following, depending, it will be buried in a moving truck and going to florida.

 

its the people that take chances that get rich, but it is a great way to get fucked as well. Ive already had guns stolen from my by the police unlawfully.

 

so. again.

 

fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice? shame on ME.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I'm not a betting man, but I'm slightly inclined to make some light hearted low stakes bet that you'll be asking your father for your S-12 back in the near future.

 

How does a handguard sound, to match that factory beech buttstock?

Edited May 19, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[Bvamp 604]

oh, Id love to buy one off you, make me one, Ill let you know when I have money for it to give you.