Saiga 12 for 3 gun

[gf1maint 0]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

[rocinante 100]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I am going in a couple of weekends for the first time to try 3 gun. I have modified mine with a 10 round magazine, pistol grip and folder. Need a couple more magazines for sure.

 

My rifle is a yugo SKS with tapco t6 stock and a red dot scout mounted. I have two of the detachable 20 round tapco mags. need more.

 

My pistol a S&W 915 9 mm with 15 round mags. I have about 5 mags. should be enough.

 

 

DOESN'T IT SOUND LIKE FUN!!!!!!!! To me one of the main attractions is you can enter the competition for 20 bucks and shoot at a club that membership cost 300 to 600 a year. I have no delusions of grandeur as far as competing but I will get to play with my stuff under an open sky for a change.

[.40AET 0]

Like this......

I just need to find some good mag pouches and it's: welcome to Open.

Edited May 19, 2007 by .40AET

[rocinante 100]

Like this......

I just need to find some good mag pouches and it's: welcome to Open.

 

Yep my ugly olga is like yours but without the red dot or the snazzy trigger guard. Nice work dude.

[topmaul 42]

It's nice to be able to shoot your guns the way they were ment to be shot.

[kmoore 3]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I'd shoot it a bunch, then decide what you'd like to tweak.

 

Area's to work on:

 

Do you want it converted to a pistol grip?

Get you mags/drums reliable (if they aren't). AGP's 10 rounders are the ticket! Factory 8's are good too, but pricey. 5 round mags have thier place.

Figure out how you want to carry the mags. Vest, belt, etc. This can affect the reload style you settle on.

Find the birdshot that it likes.

Does the choke you have do what you want? Modified is a good all around choice, but getting the gun to take changeable chokes is better.

Find the buckshot that it likes.

Sight it in.

Figure out the gas settings for bird/buck/slugs.

Work on your reloads. Do you want to grind the bolt?

There are several styles of reloading, so find what you like.

Do you want a last round bolt hold open (see Jeric).

Do you want an extended mag release (again, see Jeric).

Find the stock length that works for you.

Do you need a cheek piece to get a proper sight picture?

sights are a big decision. There are a lot of options here.

Do you like VFG?

muzzle brake?

Smooth out the action, polish contact points. Especially between bolt and hammer.

 

 

Some of this stuff needs to be worked out to match the kinds of matchs you will shoot. USPSA has the only universal set of rules that I know of. Most other matches have their own thier own brand of rules. This can affect your choice of optics/sights, brakes, shot useage, etc.

 

Some folks have worked out a magwell, but nothing universal.

 

I know this isn't much help, but a lot depends on what you want and the matches you shoot.

 

Good Luck, it's a lot of fun!

[kmoore 3]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I am going in a couple of weekends for the first time to try 3 gun. I have modified mine with a 10 round magazine, pistol grip and folder. Need a couple more magazines for sure.

 

My rifle is a yugo SKS with tapco t6 stock and a red dot scout mounted. I have two of the detachable 20 round tapco mags. need more.

 

My pistol a S&W 915 9 mm with 15 round mags. I have about 5 mags. should be enough.

 

 

DOESN'T IT SOUND LIKE FUN!!!!!!!! To me one of the main attractions is you can enter the competition for 20 bucks and shoot at a club that membership cost 300 to 600 a year. I have no delusions of grandeur as far as competing but I will get to play with my stuff under an open sky for a change.

 

Congrats. You are going to see a lot of different gear our there, but it's the indian, not the arrow. Work on shooting what you have, and enjoy it when you beat the guy with a mega bucks AR15, high dollar pistol and antiquated shotgun!

[philg80 1]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I am going in a couple of weekends for the first time to try 3 gun. I have modified mine with a 10 round magazine, pistol grip and folder. Need a couple more magazines for sure.

 

My rifle is a yugo SKS with tapco t6 stock and a red dot scout mounted. I have two of the detachable 20 round tapco mags. need more.

 

My pistol a S&W 915 9 mm with 15 round mags. I have about 5 mags. should be enough.

 

 

DOESN'T IT SOUND LIKE FUN!!!!!!!! To me one of the main attractions is you can enter the competition for 20 bucks and shoot at a club that membership cost 300 to 600 a year. I have no delusions of grandeur as far as competing but I will get to play with my stuff under an open sky for a change.

 

Congrats. You are going to see a lot of different gear our there, but it's the indian, not the arrow. Work on shooting what you have, and enjoy it when you beat the guy with a mega bucks AR15, high dollar pistol and antiquated shotgun!

Hey Hey, Now wait a minute. Just because it is an AR 15 doesn't mean it is high bucks. I assemble my own AR's strictly for Multi-Gun shooting and it is less than I have in my Saiga 12. Unfortunately my STI Open Gun cost more than both of them put together, but it is the "only" way to play the game. Tomorrow will be my third IPSC Multi-Gun with my Saiga and the guys with "tube" guns can eat my Saiga's dust except when they get to load one shell on a 12 round stage and I have to load a mag. We can only start with 10+1 by IPSC/USPSA rules and that as far as I can tell is the only downfall of the Saiga.

[kmoore 3]

Hey Hey, Now wait a minute. Just because it is an AR 15 doesn't mean it is high bucks. I assemble my own AR's strictly for Multi-Gun shooting and it is less than I have in my Saiga 12. Unfortunately my STI Open Gun cost more than both of them put together, but it is the "only" way to play the game. Tomorrow will be my third IPSC Multi-Gun with my Saiga and the guys with "tube" guns can eat my Saiga's dust except when they get to load one shell on a 12 round stage and I have to load a mag. We can only start with 10+1 by IPSC/USPSA rules and that as far as I can tell is the only downfall of the Saiga.

I agree, not all of the AR15's are high dollar, and really it's only the ones that are that are fun to beat up on. 1-4x optic with true 1x, illuminated reticle and crystal clear glass, carbon fiber handguard, midweight bbl at 18" so that it has the rifle length gas system, JP muzzle brake, JP trigger, Harris bipod, beta mag, etc ... OOPS, that's my AR. I don't have that much tied up in my Saiga, but it's probably getting close . My pistol is the cheap part of my outfit, I run a 23 round otherwise stock browning hi power, or a 20 round Para P16 (set up like a limited gun).

 

BTW, IIRC, IPSC doesn't have a mag limitation for the shotgun, only USPSA.

[.40AET 0]

Nice work dude.

I have Tromix to thank for the nice work. I built my AR, but I let a professional build my Open blaster and my shotgun. I've only tried it twice, but I was able to throw a single round into the gun on an open bolt and an empty mag. The bolt picked it up fine. I'm giving some thought to the LRBHO. If the reloads don't get easier after it's broken in, it could be the way to go.

 

kmoore- Good list. Everyone should give all of those things some thought when looking at the mods for a Saiga.

[mike12345 18]

nice saiga what rail is that? one of the ultimak rail gastubes?

 

I am thinking about getting the new ultimak rail for saigas on one of mine to mount a reflex in about the same spot. I dont like battery operated sights with no backup iron sights.

[.40AET 0]

nice saiga what rail is that? one of the ultimak rail gastubes?

Yes. Tromix will be carrying them when they become available. A reflex should work well too. Edited May 20, 2007 by .40AET

[inparidel 4]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I'd shoot it a bunch, then decide what you'd like to tweak.

 

Area's to work on:

 

Do you want it converted to a pistol grip?

Get you mags/drums reliable (if they aren't). AGP's 10 rounders are the ticket! Factory 8's are good too, but pricey. 5 round mags have thier place.

Figure out how you want to carry the mags. Vest, belt, etc. This can affect the reload style you settle on.

Find the birdshot that it likes.

Does the choke you have do what you want? Modified is a good all around choice, but getting the gun to take changeable chokes is better.

Find the buckshot that it likes.

Sight it in.

Figure out the gas settings for bird/buck/slugs.

Work on your reloads. Do you want to grind the bolt?

There are several styles of reloading, so find what you like.

Do you want a last round bolt hold open (see Jeric).

Do you want an extended mag release (again, see Jeric).

Find the stock length that works for you.

Do you need a cheek piece to get a proper sight picture?

sights are a big decision. There are a lot of options here.

Do you like VFG?

muzzle brake?

Smooth out the action, polish contact points. Especially between bolt and hammer.

 

 

Some of this stuff needs to be worked out to match the kinds of matchs you will shoot. USPSA has the only universal set of rules that I know of. Most other matches have their own thier own brand of rules. This can affect your choice of optics/sights, brakes, shot useage, etc.

 

Some folks have worked out a magwell, but nothing universal.

 

I know this isn't much help, but a lot depends on what you want and the matches you shoot.

 

Good Luck, it's a lot of fun!

 

Kmoore, or anyone, quick question: Sounds like the AGPs are working for you. Several guys at my clubs have them and they are far from reliable. I couldn't figure out what the problem was just by a description. I just got two of my own. They are the newer ones with the spring steel feed lips. The problem is that the shells--many brands--jam into the bottom of the front trunion and do not feed. I compared the AGps to the factory mags and I immediately saw that the angle of the follower is at a less extreme angle than the factory mags. They don't raise the shells upward enough, hence the jam at the bottom. If I press down on each round I load and let it/them snap up into place, that helps them feed a little better, but still far from what I would call match reliable. I love my S-12s for 3-gun, but with factory mags. My newer model will feed AGPs semi-OK if I do the snap-up thing, but my older 2000 model on't feed shells with the AGP pretty much at all.

 

Did you do anything to help them work well enough to recommend so highly? If so, what?

 

Thanks much.

Edited May 20, 2007 by inparidel

[topmaul 42]

Imparidel is correct, the feed angle of the APG mags are lower than factory mags, I have 8 APG mags, the way I corrected them was following the instructions posted all over this forum and used a little of my own gray matter. APGs need a little tweeking for most guns, my son and I shoot in 3 gun we both have a Saiga 12, I think he (my son) got a Monday Morning gun, or a Friday Afternoon job. The bottom line is that all my mags have to work in both guns.

 

I trimmed the feed lips, and I trimmed the interier walls where the top shell can make contact also used food grade silicon spray lube to get the follower to move nice and smooth. Just sand off a little of the interier where the shells snag, if your mags are not sticking sand a little off anyway because you may shoot a different brand of ammo that will hang up. One other thing I smoothed out the front of my barrel on the bottom to make a bit of a feed ramp it is a little bumpy because I was afraid to take too much material off.

 

Take your APG mag Load one or two rounds into it then push the foller down, now let the round com up see if it sticks if it does remove a little more material from the inside walls on the back of the mag. If this does not make sence to you PM me and we'll talk. When you do this test find the widest shell you have for me it was Remington Slugs and use them.

 

Match Ready Mags, Like Imparidel said I was a little afraid to use my APGs untill I had time to actually test them out, now after the last match I am completly confident in my APG mags.

 

Tuning Mags is not a new thing, I have had to do it with my 1911 and factory Saiga mags. This is in no way a slam on APG they make a wonderful product.

Edited May 20, 2007 by topmaul

[kmoore 3]

Did you do anything to help them work well enough to recommend so highly? If so, what?

 

I hadn't been as diligent on my mags, but was lucky to find that they all worked fine, except for 2 things. I only changed a couple of the feed lips (all of my mags were from the first batch), because they were working. Then I had a match with a cold day, and it got ugly finally ending with a fountain of shotshells

 

I did not systematically test all mags extensively. I found one last Saturday that was feeding slow because the shells I was using drug near the top. I'll file it down like others have mentioned (alternatively, I'd just standardize on the shells that were previously working on this). BTW, I wasn't really tuned into the filing of the interior of the mags. Saturday, Topmaul did keep me from dissembling the mags by pointing out that only the very top needs dressing (I was thinking I'd have to unscrew them and file the area from top to bottom, not so!

 

But it sounds like your mags need the modification of the feed lips. There was a very good pictorial post on that a few months back, I'd definitely start there.

[.40AET 0]

Who did the conversion or did you do it yourself and can you list the parts and especially the optic and how you mounted it. Thanks!

I had Tromix build the gun. The rail is from Atlantic Firearms. The optic is from C-More. It clamps to the rail like any other scope. Getting all of the magazines to be 100% reliable is the key to the gun. I like to run a couple of mags through each one before deciding if they will go to a match. If they don't work in practice your f'd at a match.

[inparidel 4]

Did you do anything to help them work well enough to recommend so highly? If so, what?

 

I hadn't been as diligent on my mags, but was lucky to find that they all worked fine, except for 2 things. I only changed a couple of the feed lips (all of my mags were from the first batch), because they were working. Then I had a match with a cold day, and it got ugly finally ending with a fountain of shotshells

 

I did not systematically test all mags extensively. I found one last Saturday that was feeding slow because the shells I was using drug near the top. I'll file it down like others have mentioned (alternatively, I'd just standardize on the shells that were previously working on this). BTW, I wasn't really tuned into the filing of the interior of the mags. Saturday, Topmaul did keep me from dissembling the mags by pointing out that only the very top needs dressing (I was thinking I'd have to unscrew them and file the area from top to bottom, not so!

 

But it sounds like your mags need the modification of the feed lips. There was a very good pictorial post on that a few months back, I'd definitely start there.

 

Thanks so much Kmoore. Could you please direct me to the thread for dressing the feed lips? In the mean time, I'll share what I did since I posted above. I went with what I know. I have modded 5.45 x39 mags to use 5.56 mm NATO by using Home Depot epoxy putty (the "like steel" stuff) to raise and ramp the followers. I did two things to mod the AGPs so far, but I am still very interestd in the fed lip mod, so please help me find it.

 

First, I noticed that AGP's follower rocks forward and backward, which a factory mag will never do. That told me that the AGP follower was shorter than the factory one. I took one of each (factory and AGP) and laid them top down on a glass table top. I saw the AGPs are about a good 1/8" to 3/16" shorter lengthwise, not top to bottom. I got my trusty HD putty and with 80 grit SP roughed up the back (I think that is a bettter approach than the front) vertical surface. I smeared on some putty for a good bond coat, then layed on about 3/16" or a bit more of the putty. I wet the glass of the table and pressed the freshly puttied surface down to get a nice, nearly finished surface. Press so the the putty is a tiny bit thicker near the bottom of the follower. I then trimmed off the edges with a downward slicing motion. Make sure you clean away the putty from the top of the rear of the follower because it has small grooves that match upwith rails in the mag body near the very top. lay hee sandpaper down on a flat hard table and move the follower back and forth putty side down (the stuff hardens up for preliminary filing in about 10 minutes). Sand / bevel down the putty edges. BTW I also seriously bevelled all edges at the bottom of the chamber opening as well as the top feed tangs.

 

keep tryig to fit the follower in the bottom until it not to snugly fits, but not loose, or you will have defeated the purpose, besides the mag opens up above the bottom. When you are done, you will have a follower just like the factory follower in that it won't rock, and the shells will remain pointing as high as possible. They now feed in my new S-12 pretty much, as I referred to it before, match reliable. My older S-12 is better, but still not match reliable.

 

My next "tuning" op will be using the putty to increase the angle upward on both mags about 1/8" to 3/16" until the angle matches factory mags. Then they should be properly "tuned." Guys, thanks much! I was not aware that AGPs needed modification prior to use. Sadly, so many of the guys in my club that are just coming around to S-12s (AR type guys), are not accustommed to having too tune much to get it to flat out work. MAybe to make it wirk better, or make it custom to them personally, but never to just plain work. This type of work, sadly, is beyond most, except AK guys. But thanks, and give my mods a try. Just thee back of the follower alone will make a 100% difference. Again. . .please help me find the feed lip thread.

 

Thanks again.

Edited May 21, 2007 by inparidel

[kmoore 3]

Thanks belong to Azkamidaka ...

 

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry122963

[KyleWeiss 0]

Just to add, my two AGP's were quite fussy for about 150 rounds or so. One had an issue with high-shouldered rounds, while the other pressed so hard against the feed lips it held the bold partially open.

 

I loosened both springs by bending them a tad at each curve in the opposite direction, and took a fine-grit file and rounded the square edge on the feed lips on both mags. After another 100 rounds, they work great.

 

I also notice a bit of black grit that was either from powder or burnt plastic inside the mags, clearing that stuff out after a while helped a bunch too.

 

KW

[topmaul 42]

Does anyone have any suggestions on modifications or conversions for 3 gun?

 

I have a little time tonight 3 gun Saiga, well as we all know the Saiga puts you in "Open" division automatically, which is not a bad place to be in my opinion. Being in the OD gives you a great deal of freedom to "Bling" since your shooting agianst other shooters in this division you need to become comfortable with you weapon. I use a Saiga 7.26x39 for my rifle, and a Saiga 12 for my shotgun, very similar weapons it makes for easy transistion from weapon to weapon at the range I shoot a quality AK will do just fine. My son uses a Saiga 12 and a Saiga .223. This year my standing is going to improve because I have settled on my weapons of choice.

 

Getting back to the Shotgun, you need to have your barrel threaded for chokes, there is a lot of opinions about which choke to use I use Full and light loads, with this combination I have never had any trouble with even the heavest plates, the ones in Oxford NC and at Range 1 out side Fayettville NC, or for that matter at NCRR in Virginia! This is a personal preferace by having a full set of chokes at your disposal you can watch other competitors and switch chokes say there is a stubbern Texas Star out there.

 

Other than that your are free to decide if you want an optic or not being in the OD it's up to you. I have not had a great deal of luck with a red dot on my Saiga others love them.

 

The great thing about the AK system is that you can remove your optic in seconds if it quits on you.

 

But by far the most important thing is Practice and Technique, watch other shooters even the tube feeders, for tactics. Practice your reloads, and develop your technique, if you notice my picture in another thread you will see my mags are all shells up facing forward, this is a new method this year, I find that Saiga mags are big and bulky any way you slice it, so I do not want to have to switch them around, just grab rock lock and shoot, if I counted right.

 

Plan your reloads, you do not have to empyt a MAG to drop it unless your under IDPA rules Never run your gun dry, a last round bolt lock would be a great idea, but you can live with out it, you just have to disciplin yourself to stop and reload.

 

Full set of Chokes, practice, technique, observe others, have fun, optics are optional. Make a plan for each course of fire and stick to it if you can. Have your mags where you can get to them fast!

 

GOOD LUCK

[mark78410 0]

For 3-gun I will have on me around 71 rounds, I had chokes put in I like that if I have change my load I can change my choke for that. I use an JP site I also can use the rear of the site if the dot goes out. The leg rig I had made hold the 4 mags and will hold them in place even when I'm running and gunning. Just my 2C.

[BobAsh 582]

I just want to mention to you guys that Tromix will be at the USPSA Nationals in October.

 

Come down and hang out with the Internet Legend, Tony Rumore, and the Elitist Douchebag, Bob Ash.

 

Oh yeah and see the latest Tromix offerings.

[topmaul 42]

 

This is my idea of a good rig for mags but a chest harness works too,

[kmoore 3]

So what is a decent mag carrier other than some kind of vest that you guys have seen?? Pictures please!!

 

I think there were some pouches starting to emerge, but I haven't used any yet. I've duct taped clips to my mags, and hang them directly on my belt (I think it's a little faster that way). Also, clipping them together gets you a second mag close. I've also used some of the 308 canvas pouches. They will barely hold 2 mags, one needs to be staggered higher than the other, which again makes it fast to retrieve.

 

Neither of my solutions is very secure, just good enough to get me thru the stages. But if you do recon style matchs where you hump your gear around all day, I think the vest is the prefered way.

[.40AET 0]

This is my idea of a good rig for mags but a chest harness works too,

That looks like a good start. Linky???????

[rocinante 100]

Okay my get up. I have never ever been to a 3 gun so the way I am outfitting myself is just based on what I read, the guy at the gun shop and my own particular daydream deductions.

 

For me this is all about fun. If I really like it and don't get skunked my competitive juices may kick in but I doubt it.

 

I will admit it. I wanna look cool and pretend I am one of the big dogs. The reality is I live a life that keeps me on a real short leash and just about ever minute is dictated by one competing demand of some sort or another. Middle class suburban married with children small business owner type here. Get up every morning with the thought time to make the donuts. Polo shirts, khaki slacks, sensible shoes are my persona. So playing with my guns lets me pretend my restrictions are not so tight. If you saw the movie Wild Hogs and laughed at those 4 middle age men dressing up as bikers each wondering how in the hell did my life get so boring then you will understand me. I got me a costume too First stop ARMY SURPLUS STORE!! I got a pair of woodland pattern pants. ($30) For footwear I went to Wal Mart and got a pair of Herman Survivor hiking boots. They are buff tan like regular work boots, reasonably comfortable and padded, water proof, steel toed, and high enough to give real good ankle support ($50). I am not trying to ape a real soldier look so I took a look at some of the black tees they had. Man some of them are so provocative. Give war a chance. Happiness is a mushroom cloud. I am not that bad. So I went to my local Harley store and bought a couple of black Ts ($20 each) there. What was especially cool is the shop is called Killer Creek and their logo with those words and indian warrior logo looks bad ass and Roswell has a nuance too only because of the UFO crap I kind of like . Actually I live on Foe Killer Creek. Foe Killer was a cherokee that lived on the stream when the white eyes showed up. Top it off with my green cap with the red crawfish and the motto Laissez Les Bon Temps Roulez (Let the good times roll) (free, grabbed years ago from a passed out drunk in Lafayette) and I got my vibe happening Green winchester ear muffs and yellow safety glasses.

 

GEAR WISE

 

From the army surplus store I got a vest in the woodland camo ($40) that has two large pockets on the outside and 3 smaller pockets in between. There is also a large pocket behind them. I figure I can get two S12 10 rounders in each big pocket (4 total) and two rifle magazines in each of the small pockets (6 total). I have 4 10 round S12 magazines ($220), 1 5 round, 4 20 round mags for my SKS ($100). Still need more carry capacity. I got a shotgun shell pouch ($20). It straps around the waist and it will ride on my right hip comfortably and it has three pockets that are real roomy. I will carry 5 15 round magazines for my pistol. In the big pocket I can carry loose ammo too. I got a black nylon thigh holster ($30). It is nice too because it has a pocket perfect for my folding buck knife. From what the guy at the shop told me you have to have all your ammo on you, the pistol and the rifle. You can leave the shotgun at the station where you shoot it.

 

All in all I am sure I will look like a fucking clown and I am absolutely perfectly pleased with that. Like my hat says, let the good times roll. I really like the gun culture. I still consider all this a fun diversion but the ideals and themes gun ownership entails really appeals to me. I like feeling empowered and able to defend me and mine if necessary. I like feeling I am the citizen equipped properly for milita means just as the founder's intended me to be as an able bodied man of good character and sound spirit. I like you guys and your companionship. This is a great hobby.

 

Just for fun what is my tally. Sorry for the long post but I am bored.

 

S12 400

S12 transfer and ship 45

S12 mods 225

S12 4 10 round mags 230

900 and well spent I might add.

That is my baby.

 

 

Yugo SKS unmodded 300 (yeah I know too much)

Tapco T6 stock (SKS) 85

fees and shipping 45

SKS scout mount 50

SKS red dot 40

4 tapco 20 rd mags 110

630 into an SKS. silly rabbit.

I got a x39 saiga on the way

that will probably do the same

 

S&W 915 9 mm 400

5 magazines 120

 

520

 

so my 3 gun arms are 2050.

 

accessories

 

ear and eye 40

ammo vest 40

thigh holster 30

shell pouch 20

 

130

 

 

COST FOR THE COMPETITION

 

ammo

100 rd 7.62x39 25

100 rd 9mm 15

80 rds Win AA 12 guage 25

20 rds 00 buckshot 20 ???

 

85

 

3 gun entrance fee 20

 

gas food 20

 

 

$ 140 for a day of really good times.

Edited May 26, 2007 by rocinante