CONFUSION OVER ACCESSORIES, PLEASE HELP

[inparidel 4]

Guys:

 

I am planning to get a Saiga 12. . .probably the 19" threaded barrel model. I read plenty of posts here about doing what I plan to do: put on a pistol gip and a muzzle brake among other things.

 

My question stems from the fact that the Saigas I have seen and plan to buy have a standard sporting stock with the trigger guard set close to the end of the receiver. How do you put a pistol grip on these rifles? How is there enough space between the rear of the trigger guard and the end of the receiver? Please help.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Sheik Yerbouti 0]

If you live in the USofA (no longer land of the free), you will have legal problems in putting a PG on a box-fed shotgun. The easiest and cheapest way to legally do it is to become a Special Occupational Taxpayer, obtain letters from governmental law enforcement agencies on their letterhead, and produce samples for them to evaluate.

 

A risker way to do it legally is to start a letter writing campaign to you federal elected officials and urge them not to pass the extension on the assault weapons ban bill. (don't hold your breath on this one). Unfortunately, America is a one-party state, even though it has two wings to the party. The left wing caters to the wackos and deviants to keep them happy, and the right wing caters to the producers that pay taxes and keep the country afloat. Neither wing gives the people what they want, but they make them think that they are holding back the tide from the other wing. You will probably never be able to own a box-fed shotgun with a PG in your lifetime, unless you are an S.O.T.

 

Sorry, but the USA has been subdued. In the next 10 years, the government will have a monopoly on power adn use of force.

 

The Sheik

[inparidel 4]

Edited June 29, 2003 by inparidel

[Gunfighter84 0]

Unfortunatly the answer is no. Its two or more offensive parts, including a detachable box mag.

 

I've been building a Saiga entry weapon for PD use, but right now its officialy stuck in Idaho as I cant even register it as an SBR by sticking a spare grip on it to bring it into Washington.

 

I do highly suggest the Mfr license, its a pain in the ass paperwork wise but its worth it, and you never actually have to produce anything, just keep working on them, and run a tight ship books wise. I'm still waiting on mine, and after that I'll bring my weapon back home with me so I can finish my project.

 

Anyhow, altering a Saiga-12 to accept standard AK stock bits isnt impossible, a dremil and some black touch-up paint, and a couple of fine thread machine screws and bolts to re-attach the trigger guard. After that it takes standard AK trigger parts....I suppose if you were so inclined you could even fit it to be a select fire weapon, but without a proper drum mag, it'd be most pointless. I'm happy with 5 & 8rnds of 1oz slugs and 00 Buck....

[Sheik Yerbouti 0]

I might add a few choice words about the party the you suggested keeps us "afloat," such as in less than two years after a questionable election, the country has gone from operating soundly in the black with nearly full employment, and a 200 year earned status as a great and fair nation and a leader of the free world to a nation that is now a joke in the eyes of the world with an economy that looks like one of the banks or government buildings in Iraq shortly after the statues came down.

 

Heh, heh. It started way before this bozo was in place. And the previous bozo did more than his share of damage, too. It started waaay before the last two years. One of the things that we as a nation do not understand is that it is not tax cuts that cause deficits - it is spending. Historically, revenues to the federal govt have increased when marginal tax rates have decreased (less burden = increased taxable activity + better compliance). Unfortunately, our politicians do not care. Deficit spending is business as usual. When the Dems (who have never understood free market economics outside of class warfare) are in power, they spend and raise taxes. When the Repubs (who have never understood socialist economics as anything but class warfare) are in power, they lower taxes and spend at an even higher rate. So, both parties are screwing us because they are siphoning off our economic power in exchange for "entitlements". At the point where we as "the people" have no more economic power, the two parties will have established a classic fascist state. Over time, it will evolve into a socialist state, and ultimately a dictatorship. Along the way, we will lose our gun rights, and with the same mentality as union members, we will gladly give them up.

 

Now that the Supreme Court is in on the act, interpreting the law to mean exactly the opposite of what it says (the recent Michigan vs 14th Amendment decision), it is all over but the crying.

 

So enjoy your AKs (and other guns) as long as you legally can. In your children's lifetime, and maybe even your own, the USA will become no better place to live than many banana republics. But then, that's what we get for not rioting in the streets for term limits when we had the chance. Professional politicians always look after their own interests at the expense of their constituents.

[inparidel 4]

Simplified . . .understandably considering the forum, but well said, Sheik. The few European nations that tolerate private gun ownership will not tolerate the ownership of mil calibers: you must do .222 not .223 and .380 not 9 mm, etc. The reason for this is that history has a more salient impact on Europeans. They fear--even the "better" gov'ts--that the public might have guns with which to use the ammo inside armories and on the persons of soldiers if the people decide that it's time for a change.

 

I have always treasured the trust and lack of paranoia that has underscored the relationship between the US govt and the people over our history. I feel especially free, and yes, even proud that Americans are trusted to keep all sorts of guns and only raise them for the good of family and the nation. But I now feel as if I am not trusted. Why would that be? The psychological concept of projection comes to mind. After all, it is the person capable of thievery that most fears being robbed by others. He knows what he is capable of and projects that onto others. That's what scares and bothers me about the movement toward a seeming lack of trust in the American people by our govt. Maybe it's because they, as you suggest, that they know more about the direction our system is going than we do. It will be a sad day indeed if I can't proudly take my toys out to a range or the woods and flex my freedoms in peace.

 

By the way, about the legal aspects of shotguns and the "assault weapon" ban: 18 USC 921 contains the criteria for "assault weapons." While rifles are allowed a detachable mag and two other evil features before it becomes the dreaded "assault weapon," shotguns only need two, including a dertachable mag to become evil. So, it looks as if my conversion will not be taking place on te Saiga 12. "Oh, say can you see. . . ."

[SaltPeter 6]

and that law enforcement is the engine that drives local gun laws like the total and complete "assault weapon," whatever that is, ownership ban in places like NY City and LA. It's the police leadership that smiles every time a local anti gun law is passed. I was raised in a cun club in NYC with mostly cops as members. My dad was the president. I have heard this from high ranking police officials my entire formative life. The Republican leadership in NY was behind the ban.

 

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!!! Please do not ever speak for the law enforcement community as a whole! Many cops and I do NOT believe in gun control. We do not see a purpose in any weapon ban other than a law that keeps felons, and other bad guys from owning guns.

 

If a private citizen cannot own a handgun, shotgun, box-magazine rifle, box-magazine shotgun, Uzi pistol, Uzi carbine, Saiga 12, USAS 12, Striker 12, AR-15, AK-47, or any other gun to protect their house and home, than what will protect them? Do you think that calling 911 will save you ass every time? I have responded to countless 911 calls and guess what... I wish the victim would have had a Tec-9 to kill the son of a bitch who just robbed and beat his mother. I have seen that criminal get away more times than not and I've just about had enough of it.

 

Gun bans will not reduce crime! Society as a whole must decide that we're fed up with crime and take action to prevent it. Crime is a social problem. Robbery, rape and murder are social problems. Weapons are not allowed in prisons but these crimes exist there too. The people of this country need to come to a real solution to crime or we will just be going in circles.

[inparidel 4]

Guilty. I was too general. Unfortunately, many of the police brass do not share the feelings of cops such as yoursef and others. Good to know you are out there! Do us all a favor. Make as much noise as you can dude.

[Sheik Yerbouti 0]

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, WHOA!!! Please do not ever speak for the law enforcement community as a whole! Many cops and I do NOT believe in gun control. We do not see a purpose in any weapon ban other than a law that keeps felons, and other bad guys from owning guns.

 

Hahaha! How does a law keep felons and other bad guys from owning guns?

 

And while we as gunowners may not have to worry about you in particular, what about all the other cops who want their next promotion, or max out on their next raise, or want to ensure their retirement? The fact is that cops follow orders, just like all other low-level bureacratic functionaries. Chuckie Cheese Schumer is not going to show up at my front door looking for guns. You, or one of your colleagues will.

 

You are fooling yourself if you don't think that you are standing between us and liberty. And if you don't want to be there, you should consider a career change.

 

This is not intended to be cop-bashing. This is merely the way things work. Never in recorded history have government law enforcement agents armed like infantry soldiers worked against politicians to expand the liberty of the governed. In all cases, they have been used as tools to erode liberty, either slowly or quickly.

 

I feel for you, but I will never trust you. Sorry.

 

The Sheik

[Gryphon 0]

I've seen people mentioning "two wings of the same party," and I think that people who perceive things that way are seeing only part of the reality. Currently, our two parties are divided so that most conservatives are Republican, and most liberals are Democrats. This is a division mostly based on economic policy.

You see, left versus right is not the most important political spectrum, especially with our current leaders. It is the spectrum from authority to liberty. There are plenty of politicians on BOTH sides of the fence who, for various reasons, come down on the authoritarian side. So, when you see all this "bipartisanship" realize that IT'S NOT. While it crosses party boundaries, it's not crossing ideological boundaries.

How many multinational corporations donate big money to BOTH parties? That's because the big corps tend to be for more authority. That's why they love operating in China. See, capitalism abhors communism because where capitalism says "let me buy a piece of your pie," communism says, "no, you can't, the whole pie is mine!" Once China dealt with the whole "Communism" thing, it was a beautiful place to generate profits. Capitalism gets along fine with totalitarianism.

The problem is that authoritarian governments are inefficient, and the more authoritarian they are, the more inefficient they are. That's because they have a difficult time reacting to change and variations, and they get out of sync with reality. Since they tend to START out of touch with reality, it can be a fast process to reach destruction of the system.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, a system that is libertarian has trouble getting anything done. Again, they are unable to react to changes and they will fail. We tried that with the Articles of Confederation, and we decided pretty quick that it wasn't going to cut it.

 

By the way, I suspect that there's a number of legislators that just don't care one way or the other. However, when something bad happens, they go running to the guy who claims "I can make you safer right now."

I don't think the world changed on that Gray Tuesday in September. I do think a lot of our people got their heads violently pulled out of ostrich-mode. (Unfortunately, our leaders were blinded by the sunlight and they passed something called the PATRIOT Act, but that's another story.)

[inparidel 4]

I have to say that I am refreshingly impressed with the level of education, awareness, reflectiveness and intellectualism in this forum. Other fora (most of whch would have said forums) have been more frustrating to try to exchange ideas in.

 

Both the Sheik and Gryphon make valid points. If a policeperson wants to eat, he does as he is told. . .without question. The most successful amongst us wants the most social control to maintain the status quo.

 

All political ideologies have paradoxes and flaws. Communism is great on paper, but as Gryphon states, by its very nature is an extinct dinosaur right out of the gate. It lacks the fluidity and capacity to change that capitalist systems exhibit. However, like canned soup makers, capitalist politicians must market themselves for self-serving--and preserving--reasons. In law school they taught us that hard cases make bad law. A knee-jerk reaction and solution today to an emotional and heart-rending scenario will bite you down the road. When politicians see a sniper or a cop--or worse politician--shooting (Brady is a painful case in point), the desire and opportunity to seize the moment and convert it into job security comes into play and what will garner votes overcomes reason and clarity of thought. Our strongest feature in a capitalist democracy: the drive for personal success, simultaneously becomes our biggest flaw. I wish I had the answer.

Edited July 4, 2003 by inparidel

[Sheik Yerbouti 0]

On the other end of the spectrum, a system that is libertarian has trouble getting anything done.

That's my goal. We really don't need the government to do very much for us, unless, of course, we have no imagination, or are incapable of looking after ourselves, or are just plain lazy. There are several countries where this model is in place and they have been quite successful for long periods of time. Of course most of them are either islands (impractical in our case) or require universal military service (my preference).

 

We tried that with the Articles of Confederation, and we decided pretty quick that it wasn't going to cut it.

 

Not a good comparison. The primary reason that government failed was a combination of external threats and lack of funding for even the most basic functions.

 

A better comparison would be pre-Lincoln America and post-Lincoln America. The USA was pretty much a libertarian country for a century. Lincoln didn't like the concept of limeted and enumerated powers, so he threatened the federal bench with imprisonment and torture (for their families, too) if they didn't go along with him, and there were enough thugs in certain agencies who saw personal benefit in supporting him. Prior to 1860, 95% the cases heard by the Supreme Court were commerce/contract related. After 1860 95% of the cases were interpreting federal statute (usually n favor of the central state). Lincoln undercut the foundation of libertarianism and FDR solidified its destruction, by also screwing with the federal bench, by the way.

 

So, libertarianism, which was the root of the founding of the USA had a pretty good run. Where it went wrong was when the South decided to seceede, they chose violence instead of (-a-) a legal challenge in the courts, and (-b-) a good propaganda machine. Like our current situation, there is nothing like a good war based on dubious evidence to get "we the people" to transfer our rights to the central state for "safekeeping".

 

The Sheik

Edited July 4, 2003 by Sheik Yerbouti

[lt1bbody 0]

go to this link http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/

I plan on converting mine soon.

[Salmonaxe 0]

It seems like the government has always been this way, slowly chipping away our rights as they put more and more laws on the books. It's just that now it seems so bloated that it will eventually collapse under its own weight. Maybe this is the perception of every generation as enough time passes for them to have seen enough of a significant change in society. To me, it does feel that our country is on it's last leg... but maybe it will last many more generations. Too bad we can't pull laws from the books and simplify this overcomplicated government. It is a citizens duty to be informed of a law, and ignorance is no excuse, right? Um..... so why do we have lawyers then? Because it's all a big racket for individuals who put themselves over the greater good. Selfishness has always been the driving force for humanity, and all selfishness is, is a form of self preservation. Self preservation is genetically hard wired into us all and is what keeps us going as a species. The only thing besides self preservation to keep a species alive would be some sort of hive mind that is only aimed at keeping the species alive with no regard for individuals. It's funny, because we seem to try and do both by having a society with a system of government. It seems that socialism and communism are most like a hive mind, by squashing individuality.

 

The moment we have political engineers trying to reprogram us to destroy our individuality and give ourselves up for the good of the county, we should take arms... or our freedom will be gone.

 

The funny thing is, that a hive type mentality is much more logical, but you will never truly remove individuality from human kind. It will be suppressed, and then it will only be a matter of time before the idea of freedom will launch the people into action against their oppressors. It's just a vicious circle, that will never end, unless humanity itself changes or dies out.

 

I'm just glad that I don't have to "Love Big Brother" and hide my thoughts. Of course we do have the P*A*T*R*I*O*T**A*C*T* which scares the crap out of me...

[ZakherBakher 1]

Nice to see that there are some people on the other side of the planet who understand real humanity global problem - turning it to bunch of softminded and easy controllable voters/consumers for making plane and simple profit for people like these guys http://www.trilateral.org/ or whoever is behind the govenments.

 

Any system built for this single purpose has similar basic structure and rules. "Communizm" or "Capitalism" is just a decoy marks of the same thing. Although communist methods is far more rude and far less sophisticated then western ones.

 

All this global brainwash intended for simple thing - making your mind without your own mind involved. What we all need to do is make our own minds, think about what we hear and see, analyze and filter it.

 

So don't be lazy to keep your mind fit. It's no need for revolutionary moves - if you keep in touch you may prevent some bad things from happening.

 

PS Sorry for upholding offtopick

[G O B 3,516]

The artificial 2 party system is the worst enemy that american freedom has ever faced. We no longer have the ability to vote for a candidate that reflects our values and principles.

While america becomes increasingly stratified The VERY wealthy,the middle classes who actually DO all the work,and the poor.

The 2 dominate political monopolies have conspired to eliminate any discussion of moderate positions on almost every issue.

The republicans have created something that is part faschist,part christian theocracy,and part corporate dictatorship.There is no dissention allowed-radical right wing dogma rules.

The democrats have created something that is part socialist ,part radical social reconstruction,and flavored by the guilty consience of those who hate their parents for the way the family wealth was obtained.There is no discussion allowed radical left wing dogma rules.

Any attempt to create a moderate voice is soon strangled by the 2 dominating parties it is not in the intrest of either of them to allow the creation of any other forums for political representation.As long as they maintain a stranglehold on our political representation they are assured of either being in controll or being THE opposition party.

The overwhelming majority of americans are somewhere in the middle.However untill we can create a viable 3rd or even a 4th political party we will be reduced to voting for"the lesser of 2 evils".

I love this site,it is pure american democracy in action! The english rule in america was brought down when we created"commities of correspondance"to allow the free expression of ideas among the colonists-thank god we have the internet it is the 21st century equivalent.The last time it was King George-isn't it incredible that 230 years later we have 2 of his relatives vieing to be our president?

 

G O B

[Salmonaxe 0]