Ammo Choices

[keyser223 0]

For those who have shot Wolf or Silver Bear and South African in their guns, is there much difference in accuracy/malfunctions between them? I know mine choked on Silver Bear but I think it was the FBMG mags fault. Last ?, Has anyone had any problems with the Norinco 7.62x51? TIA

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i have problems all the time with silverbear useing my saiga 308 and my nhm-91(ak 7.62x39). i havent had any problems useing wolf. once i shoot out all my silverbear i think im going to stick with wolf myself. the silverbear seems to have problems ejecting the shell on both my weapons but you do get what you payfor.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I've never used silver bear, but looking at velocities listed for it, it's probably not cycling due to low pressure loading. SB's velocities are below what most loading manuals would list for their minimum starting loads. I suspect that leads to issues with not slamming the bolt back with the same gusto that other rounds do, and likely ftf's or fte's. Just a guess though...

[Cryptkeeper 0]

yea, i kinda thought it was the ammo and not the weapon thanx buck where did u find spec's on silverbear is there a website? wander if a better gas pistion like from Red star would take care of that?, well i just got back from the range today and i tried several differnet types of ammo for MY weapon, i used fed (pwr shok) 150 gr SP got 2 1/4-2 1/2 in grp might be ok if i rezeroed for the ammo but wasnt really impressed, win super X 150 gr power point got 3+ inch grps WILL not use . barnaul 168 gr FMJ OMG no way not in this weapon 4+in grp. i had 3 brands pretty much shoot about the same 2-2 1/4 inch grps rem core-lokt 150gr sp /fiocchi 168gr HP /fusion150gr. SP (fusion,then core-lokt was my favorite after shooting the 3, just for the fact i would have less adjustments to make for rezeroing but all 3 where fairly equal) . And to my EXTREME suprise i got 1 brand that shot 1-1 1/4 grp SILVERBEAR 140 sp !! OMG !?! (fall over and die) this time it didnt have 1 jam ( go figure). these are all at 100yrds useing a 3x9 40mm scope on a bench, semi-supported,and with a hot/warm barrel the only cool time was after each 1 clip per brand i would quickly walk down to the target to inpsect/replace target , reload clip with next brand and the silverbear was the last i tried and was the hottest barrel cause i really wasnt expecting it to do as well as the others didnt even think it could beat them.the weapon was zeroed at 25yrds -2 in useing the (OMG) barnual (LOL) which at 25yrd it had a grp size of a quarter,wind 2-8mph while faceing north it was from SW, humidity 76% ,temp hi 84f. i know i will have to rezero to that brand to be on the money with it, i was mainly after info,which brand had a good/best shot grp useing MY weapon, so i can buy that brand and home in on my shooting,was not even worried about accuacy. all the ammo shot well no jams or hang ups ALL shot high (2-3in)and some to the left or right or straight...ect all pending on the brand.but like i said my focuse wasnt accuracy it was shot grp with what brand ammo.i had 1-2 wild ones out of each of the brands but i'm not counting them because its my fault i could feel some of the shots i made where bad(OMG am i out of practice LOL) but some could have been opening up from the barrel getting to hot not sure if 8 shots would make them open up,i dont believe it would.the order of brands was core-lokt,fed pwr-shok,win super X, fusion, fiocch, burnaul, silverbear. before i shot today i was hopeing fed pwr-shok would out shoot them but to my suprise/disapointment it didnt. now my problem do i hunt with cheap slightly more accurate ammo that has a 20% chance of jamming or do i use a little less accurate ammo that doesnt jam hmm,

 

 

i didnt have any wolf (wish i did)hope this helps but plz remmber you have to try different brands to know what YOUR weapon likes, each weapon likes one brand over another and no weapon is just alike

Edited July 16, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I think I gleaned my info from the "trusted" pages of a sportsmans guide catalog. If I remember correctly their 140 grain load clocked in at around 2600 fps. In looking at websites, some are claiming 2700, so maybe I've got old/bad data or old/bad memory. It's also possible that this was actual test data, and different lots of the ammo perform differently.

 

At any rate, a 140 grain load clocking in at 2600 is on the mild side of things, but that in itself really shouldn't be your problem as most of the 7.62x51 military stuff is milder than average 308 anyway. It seems like maybe your gun worked out some issues that might have contributed to the problems you were having originally. Even things like how the mags ar loaded (rounds toward the back of the mag, or rounds toward the front of the mag) can create issues with pistols, so it might be that something equally mysterious caused your original problem.

 

Good for you that you found a cheap and effective combo for the 308. I might even give some of the silver bear a go sometime to see if it's worth picking up a large lot on sale as tuck away stuff, but then again that's what I do with my brass that gets to about it's 7th or 8th loading (load it up last time with surplus FMJ as a SHTF load and tuck it away at the cabin).

 

I wonder what caused the mild ammo to be the most accurate for you. Has anyone shot 140 grain bullets? If so, how were your results. I wonder if the gun really like a mild load with a light bullet. 1.5 in is damn good for the Saiga, you should be happy.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

where the bullets are in the mag might just have been the problem this time i made sure they were all the way to the back of the mag. that will be good news if that was the problem. i did have 1 problem i noticed 1 of my mags wouldnt feed the 1st round if the 1st round was on the left side of the mag, my other mag feeds from bothsides just fine. also do you think 180gr ammo would be to hard on our saigas?

Edited July 15, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

where the bullets are in the mag might just have been the problem this time i made sure they were all the way to the back of the mag. that will be good news if that was the problem. i did have 1 problem i noticed 1 of my mags wouldnt feed the 1st round if the 1st round was on the left side of the mag, my other mag feeds from bothsides just fine. also do you think 180gr ammo would be to hard on our saigas?

 

I think that the weight of the bullet will not harm the gun, but the saiga bbl has a 1 in 12 twist. Ideal bullet weight (theoretically) for a 1 in 12 bbl is 168 grains. It is possible that if you get too heavy a bullet without a higher twist rate that the bullet will not stabilize, and this would be evidenced by "keyholing" through the target. If a bullet hits a target any other way than from the front, it wouldn't expand (if designed to do so). Also, a 180 grain bullet might not be going fast enough to tumble up with a 308. If the holes in the paper stay perfectly round, then there shouldn't be any issue. Even if they destabilize in the air it won't harm the gun. Anything's worth a try though.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

where the bullets are in the mag might just have been the problem this time i made sure they were all the way to the back of the mag. that will be good news if that was the problem. i did have 1 problem i noticed 1 of my mags wouldnt feed the 1st round if the 1st round was on the left side of the mag, my other mag feeds from bothsides just fine. also do you think 180gr ammo would be to hard on our saigas?

 

I think that the weight of the bullet will not harm the gun, but the saiga bbl has a 1 in 12 twist. Ideal bullet weight (theoretically) for a 1 in 12 bbl is 168 grains. It is possible that if you get too heavy a bullet without a higher twist rate that the bullet will not stabilize, and this would be evidenced by "keyholing" through the target. If a bullet hits a target any other way than from the front, it wouldn't expand (if designed to do so). Also, a 180 grain bullet might not be going fast enough to tumble up with a 308. If the holes in the paper stay perfectly round, then there shouldn't be any issue. Even if they destabilize in the air it won't harm the gun. Anything's worth a try though.

 

 

I didnt know about the twist=grain or all of it would have been 168gr, thats good to know wonder if the fussion /core-lokt will have a tighter grp if i use 168gr do you think it would make a major diff.? by the way i didnt say it earlier the weapon has NO mods it is a standard saiga-308 straight off the shelf only thing it has is a sling, blackjackbuffer and seals scope 3x9 40mm(visionnetweb.com).i've fired probly about 150-200 rnds out of it so far. do you think there would be a major differance in results if i did a cold barrel test with the same ammo.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[wooofad 0]

i just shot some Monarch from Academy, got decent accuracy and no jams. And it only costs 7-8 dollars per box of 20! fun stuff

[Montana3gunner 13]

i just shot some Monarch from Academy, got decent accuracy and no jams. And it only costs 7-8 dollars per box of 20! fun stuff

 

There is also some discussion on ammo here:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=17458

 

including some range results from my reloads with 165 gr corelocks.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i just shot some Monarch from Academy, got decent accuracy and no jams. And it only costs 7-8 dollars per box of 20! fun stuff

 

 

what size shot grp do you call decent a 4in grp, 3in,2in,1in? at what range?...ect.

Edited July 16, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[Montana3gunner 13]

i just shot some Monarch from Academy, got decent accuracy and no jams. And it only costs 7-8 dollars per box of 20! fun stuff

 

Just got some 168gr. FMJs I ordered from Golden West Brass http://www.goldenwestbrass.com/

 

They have 2000 bullets for approx $200 + shipping ($12 most places). I say approx $200 because they list it at $190 but their prices have gone up and they haven't updated their website yet. I think they charged me around $200.

 

I weighed about 20 bullets, 12 were between 167.9 and 168.1. 8 were between 167.4 and 167.7.

 

I'll use the ones that are close to 168 in my .308 tikka and the rest in my Saiga for practice ammo. I will shoot 10 or so good ones which I'll shoot a group with in the Saiga. Will post results...

[keyser223 0]

Just an update, I shot the Silver Bear out of my 16" on the hundred yard range, every round "keyholed" the target, some went in lengthwise sideways, some were lengthwise straight up and down. Unfortunately I didn't keep the box to see what weight the bullet was. South African and Norinco shot great. Norinco seemed quite a bit "hotter" than the SA.

[shaneman153a 39]

For those who have shot Wolf or Silver Bear and South African in their guns, is there much difference in accuracy/malfunctions between them? I know mine choked on Silver Bear but I think it was the FBMG mags fault. Last ?, Has anyone had any problems with the Norinco 7.62x51? TIA

 

I've had good results with the Norinco stuff, my LGS sells it for .25 a round. It seems to be a little hotter (maybe heavier) than the south african stuff, as sensed by recoil and noise anyway, and accuracy is almost as good as SA. I'd give you numbers, but truth be told, I'm not really a competition shooter, I don't really measure my groups. My ADD usually sends me to the range with steel targets, more fun!

[Cryptkeeper 0]

where the bullets are in the mag might just have been the problem this time i made sure they were all the way to the back of the mag. that will be good news if that was the problem. i did have 1 problem i noticed 1 of my mags wouldnt feed the 1st round if the 1st round was on the left side of the mag, my other mag feeds from bothsides just fine. also do you think 180gr ammo would be to hard on our saigas?

 

I think that the weight of the bullet will not harm the gun, but the saiga bbl has a 1 in 12 twist. Ideal bullet weight (theoretically) for a 1 in 12 bbl is 168 grains. It is possible that if you get too heavy a bullet without a higher twist rate that the bullet will not stabilize, and this would be evidenced by "keyholing" through the target. If a bullet hits a target any other way than from the front, it wouldn't expand (if designed to do so). Also, a 180 grain bullet might not be going fast enough to tumble up with a 308. If the holes in the paper stay perfectly round, then there shouldn't be any issue. Even if they destabilize in the air it won't harm the gun. Anything's worth a try though.

 

 

is there a differant twist rate (1 in 12) for a 22 in and a 16in barrel? i didnt notice any keyholing with the lighter ammo 140gr,

Edited July 17, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

is there a differant twist rate (1 in 12) for a 22 in and a 16in barrel? i didnt notice any keyholing with the lighter ammo 140gr,

 

I believe all saiga 308's have 1 in 12 bbls. Typically heavier weight bullets require higher twist rates so that the bullet will stabilize in the air. However it's also possible that the makeup of the individual bullet can have something to do with it's performance in keyholing.

 

The weight of the bullet across it's diameter (or how centered the mass is) can have a lot to do with it. Sometimes similar or even the same weight bullets of different compositions can have different results. Hollowpoints might stabilize whereas solids will not. Kind of like spinning a top with the weight on the outside vs all the weight in the center. The one with the weight on the outside will get spinning earlier and stay spinning longer. Also for this reason, longer bullets can require more twist than shorter ones of the same weight (as evidenced by the old round ball twist rates vs lighter spitzer twist rates). You can use "the google" to look up barrel length bullet weight as a search and you'll get all kinds of good info.

 

My guess is the silverbear was FMJ stuff instead of hollow points, and if you follow the logic that it's slow ammo to begin with then it might not have been twisting fast enough at the point it left the bbl to stabilize itself. Yes, velocity also plays a part in the whole twist thing, because if the bullet is moving slower, then it's not twisting as fast either. That's an added reason why heavier bullets need higher twist rates. I bet the same ammo might be OK in a gun with a longer bbl. If you want to send me a case of it, I'll try it in my 20 incher and let you see how it goes.

[Hunter78 1]

Mine seems to like Wolf Gold thats 150Gr

I'm getting about a 1.5 inch group until I get the barrel heated up.

 

Intrestingly I get a little better accuracy with my M60 flash hider on then without it. I think a hair less recoil too. Surprised me since I thought the flashhiders didn't do any of that.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

is there a differant twist rate (1 in 12) for a 22 in and a 16in barrel? i didnt notice any keyholing with the lighter ammo 140gr,

 

I believe all saiga 308's have 1 in 12 bbls. Typically heavier weight bullets require higher twist rates so that the bullet will stabilize in the air. However it's also possible that the makeup of the individual bullet can have something to do with it's performance in keyholing.

 

The weight of the bullet across it's diameter (or how centered the mass is) can have a lot to do with it. Sometimes similar or even the same weight bullets of different compositions can have different results. Hollowpoints might stabilize whereas solids will not. Kind of like spinning a top with the weight on the outside vs all the weight in the center. The one with the weight on the outside will get spinning earlier and stay spinning longer. Also for this reason, longer bullets can require more twist than shorter ones of the same weight (as evidenced by the old round ball twist rates vs lighter spitzer twist rates). You can use "the google" to look up barrel length bullet weight as a search and you'll get all kinds of good info.

 

My guess is the silverbear was FMJ stuff instead of hollow points, and if you follow the logic that it's slow ammo to begin with then it might not have been twisting fast enough at the point it left the bbl to stabilize itself. Yes, velocity also plays a part in the whole twist thing, because if the bullet is moving slower, then it's not twisting as fast either. That's an added reason why heavier bullets need higher twist rates. I bet the same ammo might be OK in a gun with a longer bbl. If you want to send me a case of it, I'll try it in my 20 incher and let you see how it goes.

 

the silverbear was soft points and it was from a 22inch barrel and it did 1- 1 1/4 in grps, im still hopeing i can find a better quality ammo that will shoot as good or better

Edited July 19, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

is there a differant twist rate (1 in 12) for a 22 in and a 16in barrel? i didnt notice any keyholing with the lighter ammo 140gr,

 

I believe all saiga 308's have 1 in 12 bbls. Typically heavier weight bullets require higher twist rates so that the bullet will stabilize in the air. However it's also possible that the makeup of the individual bullet can have something to do with it's performance in keyholing.

 

The weight of the bullet across it's diameter (or how centered the mass is) can have a lot to do with it. Sometimes similar or even the same weight bullets of different compositions can have different results. Hollowpoints might stabilize whereas solids will not. Kind of like spinning a top with the weight on the outside vs all the weight in the center. The one with the weight on the outside will get spinning earlier and stay spinning longer. Also for this reason, longer bullets can require more twist than shorter ones of the same weight (as evidenced by the old round ball twist rates vs lighter spitzer twist rates). You can use "the google" to look up barrel length bullet weight as a search and you'll get all kinds of good info.

 

My guess is the silverbear was FMJ stuff instead of hollow points, and if you follow the logic that it's slow ammo to begin with then it might not have been twisting fast enough at the point it left the bbl to stabilize itself. Yes, velocity also plays a part in the whole twist thing, because if the bullet is moving slower, then it's not twisting as fast either. That's an added reason why heavier bullets need higher twist rates. I bet the same ammo might be OK in a gun with a longer bbl. If you want to send me a case of it, I'll try it in my 20 incher and let you see how it goes.

 

the silverbear was soft points and it was from a 22inch barrel and it did 1- 1 1/4 in grps, im still hopeing i can find a better quality ammo that will shoot as good or better

 

Wow, it's really unusual that keyholing (ie unstabilized) ammo would shoot those sorts of groups. A 1 inch group is exceptional.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i dont think it was keyholing but then again i didnt notice it if it was. the target holes looked like all the others just a round hole.but im afraid to use the silverbear i've had problems with silverbear in the past with my saiga 308 and with my nhm-91 (7.62x39) the shells dont fully eject. i only have this problem with silverbear. so i guess ill keep looking for ammo that my weapon will like.

Edited July 20, 2007 by Cryptkeeper

[Aloxite 1]

I'm kind of dubious about the Silver Bear. I haven't shot any, but I just don't like the idea of the zinc coating. It is just a marketing ploy, pretty shiney ammo.

 

I have total confidence in an AK's ability to digest lacquered steel ammo, thats what they were built for.

 

I just don't trust products designed by marketing execs.

[craig45 0]

aim surplus has a limited supply of s.a. surplus.

[Tokageko 8]

IIRC, the Twist rate of the S 308 barrel is closer to 1 in 13.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i just got back from the range today i shot 3 rnds out of each of the 6 brands and let it cool at least 3-5 mins between each brand and here is the results i got useing my 22" saiga 308 remington 150gr SP core-lokt and the monarch 150gr SP. and silverbear SP 140gr(this time the 3rd round stovepiped)all shot 1 1/2 inch grps ,hornady custom 150 gr sst 3 inch grp,i got 2 brands that really did good and i was VERY pleased with,they both have about the same grping they are hornady interlock 168gr BTHP molly and fedral power-shok SP 150 gr both of these got within 1 inch all 3 rounds was inside 1 square (ea square is 1inch) shooting at 100yrds useing 3-9 40mm scope bench semi-supported the weapon is still fairly new and is just now starting to get broken-in it has about 300rnd fire through it now. i think ill go with the fedral since its the cheaper of the 2

Edited August 4, 2007 by Cryptkeeper