Jguy101 0 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 (edited) Edited August 13, 2007 by Jguy101 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 The 922r says you can have no more than 10 foreign made parts. It doesn't tell you which ones you have to use to get to that number. Have fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buzz 0 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 Question. Is the factory Monte Carlo sport stock foreign or US made? Buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's foreign. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buzz 0 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's foreign. Thanks, that's what I thought. So, if I replace a factory foreign butt stock with a foreign thumbhole the parts count is a wash...even-Steven, foreign for foreign (as is the case with my Saigas.) Are there any added implications if it is a foreign folding stock? Buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 (edited) It's foreign. Thanks, that's what I thought. So, if I replace a factory foreign butt stock with a foreign thumbhole the parts count is a wash...even-Steven, foreign for foreign (as is the case with my Saigas.) Are there any added implications if it is a foreign folding stock? Buzz If you add a US made thumbhole stock, you'll gain a US made buttstock and a US made pistol grip and will need to add some more US parts to comply with 922r (since you've changed it from iss imported condition). If you add a foreign made folding stock (with or w/o a pistol grip), you'll be changing the 'sporting configuration' of the Saiga, and will need to comply with 922r Edited August 13, 2007 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buzz 0 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 It's foreign. Thanks, that's what I thought. So, if I replace a factory foreign butt stock with a foreign thumbhole the parts count is a wash...even-Steven, foreign for foreign (as is the case with my Saigas.) Are there any added implications if it is a foreign folding stock? Buzz If you add a US made thumbhole stock, you'll gain a US made buttstock and a US made pistol grip and will need to add some more US parts to comply with 922r (since you've changed it from iss imported condition). If you add a foreign made folding stock (with or w/o a pistol grip), you'll be changing the 'sporting configuration' of the Saiga, and will need to comply with 922r But, if I add a foreign made thumbhole buttstock to replace the original foreign made sporter buttstock there is no compliance issue? Saiga is now permitted to import the Saiga with the thumbhole stock so adding one is no longer a 922r issue? That is the interpretation that I hear them most, that the original importation configuration of the gun isn't the concern, the concern is the current import legality of a particular configuration. So if a thumbhole stock can legally be imported into the US 922r doesn't kick in if that same thumbhole stock is added to a gun that first came in as a sporter. But if that was true and the thumbholes became prohibited what of the guns with added thumbholes which were added while the importation was legal? Opinions? Seems to me that if someone wants you there is plenty of rope to hang you. We've got vague opinion letters flying around, sometimes conflicting, and folks relying on opinions that probably wouldn't even be admissible in their defense. Seems like covering your ass is, unless you have one of the custom builders do it, pretty much an illusion. I guess you can only try your best to comply and keep your nose clean. I would also think that a folding stock could have implications in terms of overall length of the gun restrictions, I suppose depending on barrel length. Buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 I once found a letter from the ATF regarding high cap mags in sporting rifles, but like an idiot, I didn't bookmark or save it. Until I can find it again, I preach CYA. Has anyone been busted for 922r noncompliance? None we know of. Do you want to be the first? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Buzz 0 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 I once found a letter from the ATF regarding high cap mags in sporting rifles, but like an idiot, I didn't bookmark or save it. Until I can find it again, I preach CYA. Has anyone been busted for 922r noncompliance? None we know of. Do you want to be the first? That's just it, you do what you can to comply. Chances are if someone wants you they're going to find something, but if you keep your nose clean and do your best to comply you have covered your ass all you can. That said I'd sure like to know if I'm on firm ground with the Russian thumbhole stocks. Buzz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 13, 2007 Report Share Posted August 13, 2007 That's just it, you do what you can to comply. Chances are if someone wants you they're going to find something, but if you keep your nose clean and do your best to comply you have covered your ass all you can. That said I'd sure like to know if I'm on firm ground with the Russian thumbhole stocks. Buzz I don't see how changing this: to this: would get you in 922r hot water, as it can be shown that it was imported with this stock. Using some other foreign stock might be different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jguy101 0 Posted August 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 The 922r says you can have no more than 10 foreign made parts. It doesn't tell you which ones you have to use to get to that number. Have fun. I know you dont't need to replace specific parts. The G2, as I understand, counts as three parts, bringing foreign count down to 12. Replacing the handguard makes it 11. The pistol grip will add a US part, but it's not bringing the foreign count down. Now, I've seen some pictures on this board of converted Saigas with what appears to be the same stock (I know the Bulgarians also made some that look just about identical), AND the original foreign handguard, so I'm wondering if they found some other parts to replace or something. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 ]I know you dont't need to replace specific parts. The G2, as I understand, counts as three parts, bringing foreign count down to 12. Replacing the handguard makes it 11. The pistol grip will add a US part, but it's not bringing the foreign count down.It will, if it's US made. Now, I've seen some pictures on this board of converted Saigas with what appears to be the same stock (I know the Bulgarians also made some that look just about identical), AND the original foreign handguard, so I'm wondering if they found some other parts to replace or something. A lot of pictures of Saigas are taken by owners who don't play CYA with the 922r very well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted August 14, 2007 Report Share Posted August 14, 2007 Just SBS the thing and avoid the whole issue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
muttman2 0 Posted August 17, 2007 Report Share Posted August 17, 2007 That's just it, you do what you can to comply. Chances are if someone wants you they're going to find something, but if you keep your nose clean and do your best to comply you have covered your ass all you can. That said I'd sure like to know if I'm on firm ground with the Russian thumbhole stocks. Buzz I don't see how changing this: to this: would get you in 922r hot water, as it can be shown that it was imported with this stock. Using some other foreign stock might be different. nalioth, what makes the diffrence is bolth guns still have a 10 rnd. mag in the gun. and yes there are people who have/are poped for 922r issues. most do not have the $$ for the rest of the US parts and put a 30rnd. mag in at a open firing range to give the gun a test run. muttman2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dyi 0 Posted August 31, 2007 Report Share Posted August 31, 2007 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayanx 1 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 10 foreign parts. *groans* so it's not even a firearm regulation, it's more like a importation issue. someone me allready... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 18 U.S.C. section 922 all kinds of fun legal mumbo jumbo.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) What if you altered the stock on an imported rifle? Say you cut some holes in the wood or plastic to make it lighter. Are you now out of 922r compliance even if you've changed out 0 parts? If you're still in 922r because you have the same parts it was imported with, why couldn't you just saw off the monte-carlo down to the handle and have a shotgun-esque pistol-ball grip? Also, since no Saigas are imported with a scope or scope rail, would adding one bring into 922r questions since many scopes/mounts are non-US made? Since they Import Saigas with the thumbhole grip, could you simply cut the bottom rung off the plastic thumbhole and make it more pistol-grip + Stock looking? You'd still be using the same ONE part? No Saigas are imported with bipods, can you add a bipod to a stock saiga without being in 922r violation? These are things I want to know. I know the scope and bipod aren't considered "Parts" on the count, but you've taken it out of the imported configuration and have assembled a rifle with more than 10 foreign parts.... I'm just curious. Edited September 11, 2007 by SaigaNoobie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 What if you altered the stock on an imported rifle? Say you cut some holes in the wood or plastic to make it lighter. Are you now out of 922r compliance even if you've changed out 0 parts? Once a foreign part, always a foreign part, no matter how it's modified. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 What if you altered the stock on an imported rifle? Say you cut some holes in the wood or plastic to make it lighter. Are you now out of 922r compliance even if you've changed out 0 parts? Once a foreign part, always a foreign part, no matter how it's modified. I'm not questioning that it remains foreign, I'm questioning whether altering a part puts it into a new form that wasn't imported, thus bringing in 922r issues. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 I'm not questioning that it remains foreign, I'm questioning whether altering a part puts it into a new form that wasn't imported, thus bringing in 922r issues. No, it doesn't raise any. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 If altering parts does not cause any 922r issues, what about removing parts? If say, I were to take off the Front and rear sights to lighten the gun since I was using scope 100% of the time? Would the removal of foreign parts cause an issue? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 If altering parts does not cause any 922r issues, what about removing parts? If say, I were to take off the Front and rear sights to lighten the gun since I was using scope 100% of the time? Would the removal of foreign parts cause an issue? Well sights are not on the countable parts list, so you can remove them without consequence. Most if not all the countable parts are essential to a functioning firearm and the scenario of removing them to play the 922r game really doesn't come up much, except maybe for a muzzle device. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Well that's just it. Could you use an 8rd, non-saiga manufactured magazine in a .308 saiga since they're imported with an 8rd mag? What about a 5 rd.? Would adding these new but equal parts cause 922r violation? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 What if you altered the stock on an imported rifle? Say you cut some holes in the wood or plastic to make it lighter. Are you now out of 922r compliance even if you've changed out 0 parts? Once a foreign part, always a foreign part, no matter how it's modified. Not so. If you take a foreign part and completely change its function, it no longer counts as a foreign part. You take an AK wood buttstock and make 3 pistol grips out of it, you have 3 US made pistol grips. You take an AK trigger and somehow conform it to become a AK hammer, it'd be considered a US made hammer. I've linked the ATF letter concerning this elsewhere on the site (the search feature works good, eh?) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 Well that's just it. Could you use an 8rd, non-saiga manufactured magazine in a .308 saiga since they're imported with an 8rd mag? What about a 5 rd.? Would adding these new but equal parts cause 922r violation? You can use the .308 with the 8 rounder since it's imported that way. Don't think there are any 5 rounders made for the .308. You can swap foreign parts for other foreign parts, like replacing a stock S12 handguard for one with a rail on the bottom, and both are foreign made, without effecting 922r. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) What if you altered the stock on an imported rifle? Say you cut some holes in the wood or plastic to make it lighter. Are you now out of 922r compliance even if you've changed out 0 parts? Once a foreign part, always a foreign part, no matter how it's modified. Not so. If you take a foreign part and completely change its function, it no longer counts as a foreign part. You take an AK wood buttstock and make 3 pistol grips out of it, you have 3 US made pistol grips. You take an AK trigger and somehow conform it to become a AK hammer, it'd be considered a US made hammer. I've linked the ATF letter concerning this elsewhere on the site (the search feature works good, eh?) I'm talking about the most common sense interpretation, not like melting down your FCG and molding a US made FSB or some countable part out of it. Edited September 11, 2007 by tritium Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vjor 2 Posted September 11, 2007 Report Share Posted September 11, 2007 (edited) interesting Edited September 11, 2007 by vjor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dayanx 1 Posted September 12, 2007 Report Share Posted September 12, 2007 if there is more than one manufacurer of a part, and they have no individual serial numbers like the monte carlo saiga stock on the table here, how would one know anyway? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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