Presidential Debate 13Oct2004

[KySoldier 2]

Did you all see the debates??? When asked about the renewal of the 94 AWB, Bush said that he...

 

1. Supported the renewal

2. but was told that members of congress, both democrats and republicans alike, that they did not want to propose or support a new ban.

3. Supports background checks at gun shows.

4. He believes that American's should be allowed to own guns and that he asked the Attorney General to go after those that use guns in crimes and that that was the solution to gun crime.

 

Kerry said...

 

1. He supported the renewal and that it slipping by without a renewal was a failure on Bush's part.

2. He's a hunter and a gun owner and doesn't want to tamper with the 2nd amendment.

3. That he was in law enforcement and has spoken to police since the expiration and believes, as they do, that their jobs will be more dangerous since they will be facing more assault weapons like the AK47

4. and that Pres Bush's failure to renew the good ban that Clinton started will give terrorists the ability to purchase AK47s at gun shows as they have been loooking at doing.

[Bvamp 604]

the only thing I HEARD was "gunshow loophole" and kerry was absolutely correct. *I* should be allowed to buy assault weapons, so should *YOU*, but ALIENS should NOT! NO EXCUSES!!!!! if thats the only thing our president or his prime candidate can come up with, i say f everyone else, only people of USA birth should own em, and even then with checks. I myself, do not wish to enable any criminal with a weapon. NO EXCUSE! BE NICE AND TALK ABOUT IT GUYS! TELL those liberals and other anti's what it is, and get RID of it! we got our guns, but which ones will be left?

 

I for one will not be outgunned any day this millenium by any one other than those paid to protect me, and cannot during the two minutes I need them the most....

Edited October 14, 2004 by Bvamp

[RooK 0]

If there is a gun show loophole then it's true name is the 'private sale' loophole. Any licensed firearm dealer at a gun show is required by law to do background checks on sales. The only people that aren't required is like me seeing you at the show and selling you my .308 Saiga: a private, person to person transaction. There is no gun show loophole.

[Bvamp 604]

yeh and? its a gun show. they are legal vendors there usually, and anyone privately selling there is a business as far as im concerned. if this is what the liberals cause us grief over, i want it dealt with....

[KySoldier 2]

Well, alot of people like not having to deal with registration...they feel mandatory registration is the first step nessacary for the gov to come take the guns.

[emr454 1]

I think people need to realize that no matter how many laws are passed against guns, or waht kind of bans the gov't passes, criminals will still be able to get guns. They get them illegally now and they will be able to get them illegally in the future, period. If they don't abide by the laws now, they're not going to abide by any new laws.

 

And as far as high capacity magazines go...I had someone ask me "Why do you want to be able to hold 30 rounds when all you really need is 10"? So I asked them "Why would you want to own a sports car that will do 110, 120 mph when all you really need it to do is 65?...BECAUSE I WANT TO, THAT'S WHY!!!

[emclean 0]

Kerry supports the AWB, but his favorit gun is an assault weapon???

In Magazine Interview, Kerry Says He Owns Assault Rifle

 

Senator John Kerry, a hunter who supported the recently expired assault weapons ban, frequently tells audiences he has never met anyone who wanted to use an AK-47 to shoot a deer. But it is not clear what Mr. Kerry does with the Chinese assault rifle he told Outdoor Life magazine he kept in his personal collection.

 

In interviews appearing in the October issue of Outdoor Life, Mr. Kerry and President Bush were asked whether they were gun owners, and, if so, to identify their favorite gun.

 

Mr. Bush named the Weatherby 20 gauge (although he gave a slightly different answer in a separate chat with Field and Stream magazine.) Mr. Kerry's answer was more complicated.

 

"My favorite gun is the M-16 that saved my life and that of my crew in Vietnam," Mr. Kerry told the magazine. "I don't own one of those now, but one of my reminders of my service is a Communist Chinese assault rifle."

 

Mr. Kerry's campaign would not say what model rifle Mr. Kerry was referring to, where he got it and when, or how many guns he owned. A spokesman for the senator, Michael Meehan, said Mr. Kerry was a registered gun owner in Massachusetts. On Thursday morning, Mr. Meehan said he had not been able to ask Mr. Kerry about the rifle because of Mr. Kerry's hoarse voice; he did not respond to further inquiries.

 

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association - which has given Mr. Kerry "F" ratings throughout his career and backs Mr. Bush's re-election - said the Outdoor Life comment made Mr. Kerry's support of the assault weapons ban disingenuous.

 

"It's O.K. for John Kerry to own these kinds of firearms, but it's not O.K. for John Q. Public?" Mr. Arulanandam said, noting that if Mr. Kerry brought the gun home from the war as a souvenir he could be subject to court-martial. "He certainly owes people an explanation as to why there's a double standard."

 

Stephen P. Halbrook, a gun rights lawyer who has argued several cases before the Supreme Court, said the most common Chinese assault rifles, known as SKS clones, were not among the 19 models banned under the 1994 law. But some SKS's have magazines holding more than 10 rounds, which violates a Massachusetts law against large-capacity weapons, Mr. Halbrook said. If the gun is fully automatic, Mr. Halbrook said, it is illegal in Massachusetts and would require a federal permit if Mr. Kerry kept it at one of his homes in Pennsylvania and Idaho.

 

Such permits are not public records.

 

Bob Ricker, a former N.R.A. lawyer who is now a consultant for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, said he was not worried by Mr. Kerry's answer because "he knows a lot about firearms and he's also one of the most credible individuals when it comes to talking about gun-violence prevention and what it takes to keep weapons of war off the street."

 

Mr. Bush does not have such high-powered weapons but seems unable to pick a consistent favorite. To Field and Stream, he said, "My favorite gun is the first gun that my dad gave me, which is a Winchester .22 pump, Model 61."

 

He also mentioned the Weatherby he chose for Outdoor Life, saying that it was a "custom-made gun presented to me by the C.E.O. of the company, Mr. Weatherby." Mr. Bush said he had "six or seven guns" in his office safe, including two .22's, deer rifles and a .243-caliber "varmint" rifle.

 

"Given to me by the former lieutenant governor of Texas, Bob Bullock, my old buddy," Mr. Bush explained of the .243-caliber rifle, "who on his deathbed said, 'I want to give you a gun.' "

[RooK 0]

yeh and? its a gun show. they are legal vendors there usually, and anyone privately selling there is a business as far as im concerned. if this is what the liberals cause us grief over, i want it dealt with....

Since when did selling or trading private property become a business? A gun show is nothing more than a gathering place for people of common interest. Just because you assume or have the opinion that all parties are businesses doesn't mean they are. We have livestock sales locally here on the weekends, it's not uncommen to see people totting firearms around wanting to sell or trade them. Are they businesses? Are you going to force them to do background checks?

 

By allowing/supporting this, you're opening the door for them to force all private sales, gun show or not, through a dealer. Seeing as some dealers charge you upward $30 or more, we're the ones that pay. I have yet to see a dealer do a free transfer, whether it costs them money or not.

[RooK 0]

Well, alot of people like not having to deal with registration...they feel mandatory registration is the first step nessacary for the gov to come take the guns.

It worked with machine guns. They registered them under the NFA and banned them in '86 under a FOPA admendment. Did they confiscate them? No, but it provides a basis to where no more may be manufactured and if it ain't registered it's illegal. Plus, it put the price outside of the average person's grasp and their still inflating. It's also a deminishing finite source, whether through abuse, accidents, or violations of the law, registered machine guns in the hands of civilians (transferable) declines every year.

 

In CA, when they held their big registration, they later confiscated registered SKS rifles that the gov. didn't like, despite assuring citizens they were OK. The fact remains: without registration you are guaranteed there will not be an effective confiscation or ban. The same cannot be said with registration in place. It also evolves into a privacy/property issue and whether it violates other US Con. Amendments.

 

Gun control on such a large scale is also a recent concept. Look at laws prior to 1934 and you run into basically only two areas with restrictions: concealed weapons and areas of political/federal concern.

 

I'm not paranoid but a realist. The past has always shown that if you give the gun control enthusiast an inch, they try and take everything you have. They got the AWB, now new proposals are attempting to ban any form of repeating firearm, including pumps and pistols with compensators (goodbye IPSC). "But I thought you said that they were dangerous because they were military weapons! When did the military issue Remington 7600s?"

Edited October 14, 2004 by RooK

[vjor 2]

Edited October 14, 2004 by vjor

[jon elia 0]

why would a terrorist or a criminal pay 400 bucks for an ak at a gun show?

they dont need a new ban....as it is we still have the import ban and the machine gun ban isn't that enough....and for lcafd's i'd really hate to have to be constantly reloading my 10 round mag compared to having a couple of 30's in a situation like that

[Bvamp 604]

ok, here we go, case in point:

 

i was in alberquerque NM and attended a gun show there. there were all kinds of gang bangers walking around, looking at handguns. a vendor sold a girl a used pistol from his "private stock" as its called, and didnt do the NICS check, nor is it currently illegal to do this. she paid for it with her credit card, and right in front of the dealer and myself, hands the gang banger HER pistol (yeh right HER pistol) and off they went. I saw him hand her cash outside the place. this is your damn loophole and it SHOULD BE CLOSED! a private person to person sale is one thing, but this was a FFL holder and it was out of his stock, just not the brand new stock. if i were a felon, which im most assuredly not, I would only need to get new ID in a state like NM or NV or TX, live there (not like I would ACTUALLY HAVE TO live there), or pay a bill at some amigo's house with my name on it for 90 days, and I too can walk out and traffic handguns into cali or NY or places where you cannot buy a pistol without a permit. Im SURE a terrorist can figure out how to do it too. it is a shame on all of us legal gun owners and the legal FFL holders out there that try to do right, and there are the couple guys out there that will sell thier soul for a buck.

 

dont even try to tell me there is no loophole, cause Ive seen it in effect with my own two eyes.

[emclean 0]

dont even try to tell me there is no loophole, cause Ive seen it in effect with my own two eyes.

is that a loophole, or an illegal sale? it sounds like the dealer did not care that he was selling the weapon illegaly. so are you asking for the laws to be changed, or enforced? also did you mention it to any law enforcment that were there (at all of my local shows there are cops at the entrance and roming the show, i assume it is the same where you are)?

[RooK 0]

ok, here we go, case in point:

 

i was in alberquerque NM and attended a gun show there. there were all kinds of gang bangers walking around, looking at handguns. a vendor sold a girl a used pistol from his "private stock" as its called, and didnt do the NICS check, nor is it currently illegal to do this. she paid for it with her credit card, and right in front of the dealer and myself, hands the gang banger HER pistol (yeh right HER pistol) and off they went. I saw him hand her cash outside the place. this is your damn loophole and it SHOULD BE CLOSED! a private person to person sale is one thing, but this was a FFL holder and it was out of his stock, just not the brand new stock. if i were a felon, which im most assuredly not, I would only need to get new ID in a state like NM or NV or TX, live there (not like I would ACTUALLY HAVE TO live there), or pay a bill at some amigo's house with my name on it for 90 days, and I too can walk out and traffic handguns into cali or NY or places where you cannot buy a pistol without a permit. Im SURE a terrorist can figure out how to do it too. it is a shame on all of us legal gun owners and the legal FFL holders out there that try to do right, and there are the couple guys out there that will sell thier soul for a buck.

 

dont even try to tell me there is no loophole, cause Ive seen it in effect with my own two eyes.

If this sold a gun that was from his store stock and bought for resale, then it was illegal. Plain and simple. How would stopping private sales stop this crap since it already is illegal? Private stock and stock for sale are completely different when it comes to ATF. Anything ordered for sale in your store has to be sold under federal regulations now matter where you sale it. Anything ordered for your private collection has to be kept documented as well, and selling a lot of those without the background check is a good way to attract ATF attention and get your FFL revoked. There is no way to automatically make store stock 'private.'

 

Maybe you should push for greater enforcement of federal regs at gun shows instead of banning private sales, also random background checks by police at such shows might be beneficial. That way you have a catch-all to pick up people like the one you listed but still let people have private sales and not hurt legal gun owners one bit.

[G O B 3,516]

Bvamp-That sounds like a classic "straw purchace" scheme. Very much ILLEGAL. That poor excuse for a dealer belongs in jail! We don't need more laws-just enforce the ones that we have.

 

G O B

[RooK 0]

Straw purchases are illegal even if both parties can legally own a gun, just so you know. Thats pertains directly to one of the questions on the yellow ATF form.

[SaigaShooter 0]

My thoughts on debates.

 

These debate platforms are not conducive to substance or logic. To win as a Republican, you have to be able to briefly explain complex issues while fending off lies and distortions. Socialists/Democrats/Liberals/Whatever you want to call em's, have it easy - they just toss out some lies rather than debate and the, media not only lets them get away with it - but they actually swoon.

 

As a Republican you have to be able to explain to people with a 90 IQ that:

 

1. Captalism is better than socialism.

 

2. Why raising the minimum wage to $10 an hour would not work.

 

3. How raising taxes on the hated evil wealthy would hurt small business and stifle the economy - (example - the luxury tax).

 

4. That doing nothing or raising taxes in the wake of a recession and a terrorist attack would have made the economy worse.

 

5. That woman making less than men in the work place can not be fixed by forcing employers to pay a sur charge to hirer woman.

 

6. That making guns illegal means that only lawbiders won't own them.

 

7. That not just rich people own stocks and depend on dividends.

 

8. That unskilled laborers do not create jobs.

 

9. That expanding the government role in providing health benefits - will motivate employers to abandon health coverage.

 

10. That allowing foreign companies to sell our drugs cheaper to ourselves will limit the amount of new drugs being created.

 

and the list goes on and on.....

 

As a Socialist/Democrat/Liberal Weiner/Whatever you want to call em': you can just promise everyone the world, criticize your opponents for making the hard decision, and then afterwards take credit for it.

[Bvamp 604]

at the same gun show, I saw another vendor sell a 9mm something to someone with a nics form filled out that wasnt called in, and the guy walked out immediately after buying the gun. same deal with the girl buying the pistol and giving it to her friend. she didnt fill no nothin out. she basically walked right on out of the show with the gun. regardless of who she gave it to after that, there was no background check, there was no form. as far as I know this is completely legal. "gunshow loophole"

 

hey, you all wanted to know what it was they were talking about. thats what they are talking about. apart from the girl handing over the pistol, both cases were legal as far as I know.

[SaltPeter 6]

The things you discribed are violations of federal law already. You should know that. Completely shutting down gun shows altogether wouldn't stop those people from doing illegal business; it would just cause them to do it elsewhere. A "loophole" is a way of doing something to get around a poorly written law (a law written vaguely, that doesn't cover every circumstance). Since the transactions you discribed are already covered by law and are illegal, they cannot be discribed as a loophole.

 

Do you have gunshows in your area? Do they do these kinds of shady transactions there too? I have attended gun shows in Illinois, Missouri, Georgia, and Florida since the late 80s and I have never seen anything like that happen (and I try to pay attention to that kind of thing). It sounds like this place in Alberquerque needs some serious attention from the ATF, or at least the local police.

[RooK 0]

at the same gun show, I saw another vendor sell a 9mm something to someone with a nics form filled out that wasnt called in, and the guy walked out immediately after buying the gun. same deal with the girl buying the pistol and giving it to her friend. she didnt fill no nothin out. she basically walked right on out of the show with the gun. regardless of who she gave it to after that, there was no background check, there was no form. as far as I know this is completely legal. "gunshow loophole"

We've already told you, those things are NOT legal, gun show or otherwised. Any dealer selling his store items at a gun show has to follow the same guidlines as when he sells them in a shop. Next time you might want to tip off the officials. All firearms ordered/sold by a dealer are put in a log book. If they find missing guns, his ass has had it.

[Bvamp 604]

*cough* no, you fill out the nics form, and because of the show, the dealer isnt required to call it in for up to two days. and anyone saying that thier guns that are used are thier own guns, dealer or no, isnt required to have anybody fill that form out. they CAN and DO handle it as a private transaction. this is the law now. keep in mind, you only need to show residency for 90 days in the state of new mexico to even buy a pistol, and that you are 18. the only thing i mentioned above that was illegal was the fact the girl handed the pistol over to someone else. the dealer didnt break ANY laws. you all asked what gunshow loophole, and im trying to tell you what they are talking about, and ya'll dont want to hear it, or you are telling me that i dont know what im talking about. just thought i would point it out to ya.

 

saltpeter, no, here you must fill out paperwork to basically even touch a pistol at a shop. Im in NY remember? a law for everything?

 

rook: i suggest you go to new mexico or nevada or texas with a resident and see for yourself what this loophole is for yourself.

 

I personally think that the NRA should be up the gov's ass on this one, as the liberals will use this stupid bullshit to come down hard on guns. its almost like they left an excuse to do so. if you guys would like to look for yourself directly at the gunshow law, go ahead. you will be quite surprised that I am telling you the truth. what good is any gun law with that b.s. happening? someone want to tell me that? all they need to do is put an ATF agent and a metal detector at the exit to every gunshow and call in the serial #'s/ID to everyone carrying guns outta there. got a right? good, show me you still have that right. If they have to fix it, let em fix it, just dont be making my laws here worse because of someone's stupidity and the so called "free enterprise" right. this is a fascist state anyway as it stands, in my opinion. nothing is free anymore. you cant even die or even be born for free. hell our own govt dont listen to us anymore.

 

you go ahead and go look for yourselves guys. its scary. and its legal. im serious. (cept the handing over of the one pistol by the g/f to someone else that is. that part is illegal, but ya know what? its her property, and she can do what she wants with it, RIGHT?) I cant make this stuff up. and even if you do think its illegal? who is to stop them? its still happening.

 

now, ive gone and empowered a criminal with this knowledge most likely, so i hope ya'll find this info worth it. dont mean to be rude, but I circumvented this before, and I just had to open my mouth this time. I love my guns and all, but the gunshow loophole kinda makes the laws worthless in my opinion. something should be done.

[Bvamp 604]

and i never said anything about banning private sales, by the way. the more people with guns, the better I think. less people breathing my damn air and drinking my water. hate to think like that, but ya'll seen how the world is. Im sure you know what im talking about. I just cant see having to obey this law and that friggin law and then some gang banger can just go right on around em and get whatever the hell they want. why am I following the laws? why should I have to? such is the double standards of a fascist state better start a BVamp hater club guys. I know Im gonna catch hell for that comment.

[KySoldier 2]

I understand what you're saying, I imagine that many of us feel like we have to obey a double standard that keeps us out gunned compared to the criminal element. That's just how it goes. Be glad you're state isn't banning guns by caliber yet like California's ban on .50. I still don't know what "loophole" you all are talking about. Perhaps I should reread with a little more attention paid. I've been to shows around KY and I've seen alot of guns sold with no yellow form. I know individuals can sell to one another as long as both are KY residents. I bought a beretta 92f from a guy who had a table at a show. He said he was an individual and he had probably a dozen pistols on the table, everything from a little cheap .380 to an HK Mark 23. I bought the gun with no paperwork. There are people who walk around Knob Creek with rifles on their backs and signs saying "For Sale." That's legal too. I don't see any problem with individuals coming together to one place to buy/sell. Now FFL dealers, should know better and they should certainly be prosecuted. I know that the ATF goes to Knob Creek, they busted people a few years back for selling "bird bombs" after they were told not to. Now you can buy the parts and assemble yourself.

[emclean 0]

sorry bavamp, but i dont see what you are calling the gun show loophole clearly. is it the 2 days to call in the check, or the dealer doing a privet sale? can you clarifie

[prophageus 0]

Why does everyone only see the small pictures and not the big picture?

 

Personally I don't feel like living in a Nazi Germany Reenactment.

[Bvamp 604]

kysoldier: i do some buying and trading myself, as Ive gone into before. I can buy and sell to anyone in my state or in any contiguous (adjacent) state as well. but I know the people I sell/trade to. its not some guy with a fake ID from california or something, if you get my meaning. that is not the loophole. I am talking about the loophole that dealers have at the shows. I didnt believe it myself, until i got home and managed to find the gunshow laws that specifically state that line of crap.

 

emclean: both.

 

prophageus: its as close to becoming fascism as it can get without alerting the general public as it is now. I hear ya.

 

heres one for ya'll: what happens to me if I bought my daughter a 22 for her birthday? you cant tell me thats a straw purchase? can you?

 

how about this one? what if i bought a gun from a dude legally, and then turned around and sold it legally to someone who used it in a crime? who knows that I ever had it? it would be MY fault, not the dude that sold it to me.

 

I hate to say it over and over, but the gun laws need a re-writin' guys. not a deletion. basically all thats gonna happen is the govt. is going to be sure to leave open some holes and other b.s. that will allow them to cite how guns should be banned and they will try to make them dissapear. its a game. they think they are fooling people, but its a stupid game is all it is. I dont buy it. the gunshow hole woulda been closed LONG AGO if they didnt want to ban sales at gun shows period, if you ask me. this government is based on trickery and deception and preying on the uninformed, and that is why I say this type of stuff. and THAT is why the only people working for the govt. that i will trust are the sheriffs and other "plain-jane" employees. (and that is only so far as it is) the higher up ya go, the deeper the poo gets, and it just sucks. (for us, not them) I know guys here that became federal guards (dont ask me where, not tellin ya, lets say you have heard of the place) just to be able to buy machine guns and get the federal employee discount. and yeh, they have more guns than most shops. "for work" YEH RIGHT! what a load of crap. how many guns can a guard possibly carry at once at work? its not a damn fashion show. I can go on and on, but I think I made my point I hope. cant have no laws, but cant have the people write them who are doing so now, because they are always trying to pull one over on us. this is the basis for my loss in faith in our beloved country's systems.

 

did you know you cannot use a lasso while fishing in some state I cant remember? did ya know there are states where you cant take a dog bird or small game hunting? how is that for stupid? who comes up with this stuff anyway? its not in the interest of the public safety. you can go to jail in whaetver state it is for tying up to a tree in your damn bass boat with a slip knot....give me a break. I dont mind laws, but they should at least make friggin sense, and respect the REST of us. next thing, you wont be able to light a smoke in a bar full of smokers because of the one person that dont smoke....

[make a saiga 12 drum! 0]

yeh and? its a gun show. they are legal vendors there usually, and anyone privately selling there is a business as far as im concerned. if this is what the liberals cause us grief over, i want it dealt with....

Dude you came off soooooooooooo like an Ahole and enimy of freedom.

 

You can legaly list your guns for sale in the news paper and sell them to whoever you want. You can go to a gun show and sell your guns to whoever you want. You can sell your firearms to anyone you know or meet that wants to buy them.

 

This is private sales/transations...... DO you believe that we should all have to go get a federal firearms lisense and pay $1,000 a year just to sell a few of OUR guns?

 

We private citizens cannot even do a background check on a person... its not possable, so these retards need to STFU.

 

Im all for keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals who have commited a violent crime, or crime with a firearm. I DO NOT believe they have any right to tell anyone they cant own any firearm unless they have done one of these two things.

[make a saiga 12 drum! 0]

Kerry said...

 

1. He supported the renewal and that it slipping by without a renewal was a failure on Bush's part.

2. He's a hunter and a gun owner and doesn't want to tamper with the 2nd amendment.

3. That he was in law enforcement and has spoken to police since the expiration and believes, as they do, that their jobs will be more dangerous since they will be facing more assault weapons like the AK47

4. and that Pres Bush's failure to renew the good ban that Clinton started will give terrorists the ability to purchase AK47s at gun shows as they have been loooking at doing.

1)The renewal of the ban wasent bush's falt he had nothing to do with it our elected representatives had to vote to pass a bill to extend the AW ban.

 

They killed the last bill to extend the ban with an 80 to 8 vote.

 

2) John F'n kerry believes you have no right to own a gun, runs arround with brady, finestine, and the rest of the antigun Aholes. He is just trying to win over votes from gun owners.

 

"doesn't want to tamper with the 2nd amendment." "He supported the renewal" Hey look another flip flop by kerry in the debate.

 

3) law enforcements jobs wont be any more dangorous because of the fact that only 1% of all crimes involving a firearm are assault weapons as defined by the AW ban. This means most of those are POS handguns with more than 10rd mags......

 

4)"will give terrorists the ability to purchase AK47s at gun shows" If the terrorist can get into this country he can bring a fullauto AK47 with him that only cost him $50. He wont come here and try to buy an overpriced semiauto rifle.

[prophageus 0]

Hey.. there ARE other candidates.. not just the TWO that they are trying to make everyone think are their ONLY options. OMFG.

[Bvamp 604]

for the record, im a patriot. I dont like how the govt. is changing into a fascist state however. and yes, we should all have access to the NICS check. private sales should be legal, however, all people should be checked at a gun show, as it is the equivalent of a big gigantic store. if i were a criminal, that is where i would seek a firearm, and there should be measures to protect us all who go there and do the private sale thing. you do know if you sell a firearm to a criminal or sell one to someone and its used in a crime, its your fault right? how do you know that the person you sell to is a legitimate non-crook or isnt unstable? you dont. nics checks should be free to any private citizen selling a firearm. again, this is what im saying about a double standard in this country. its b.s. they want us to hang ourselves, and its not right and its not even legal, so far as I can tell.