Smoothing Out The Action

[Monk 0]

I'm sure most of you have seen this - when cycling the action slowly, the carrier stops less than an inch from where it is supposed to. The point where it stops is the point right before the bolt rotates and locks into place. It would seem that the reason for it getting hung up would have to do with part of the bolt scraping against a cornered surface in the act of getting into the notches where it rotates into, but after a lot of squinting and mini-flashlight observation, I found that the rotating parts of the bolt don't even touch the corners as they go around them, so that can't be what causes the hangup.

 

I figure a dremel in the right area will cure this for good if I can find the right place to smooth out, similar to how removing some material from my Tapco hammer made it so that the carrier no longer gets hung up when you pull it slowly all the way back and let it go.

 

Does anyone have ANY idea of exactly what area causes this?

 

I read in the thread below that it might be the extractor or ejector, but even if it is, I have no idea which surface needs to be smoothed.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...l=action+smooth

Edited February 22, 2008 by Monk

[nalioth 405]

Put your dremel down.

 

If it's a new rifle, just hand cycling it will smooth it out.

 

If it's a new conversion, the G2 trigger groups are known to cause 'hangups'

 

 

In both cases, the usual cause is the "slow cycling of the action". These guns are made to work when the bolt carrier is released at the rearmost point. When you baby it forward, it's not gonna work like it's supposed to.

[Bvamp 604]

does the gun do it under firing battery? meaning, does it fail to chamber when you shoot it?

 

 

like nalioth said, take the bolt all the way back and LET GO OF IT. its not a savage 270 bolt gun.

[Monk 0]

Put your dremel down.

 

If it's a new rifle, just hand cycling it will smooth it out.

 

If it's a new conversion, the G2 trigger groups are known to cause 'hangups'

 

In both cases, the usual cause is the "slow cycling of the action". These guns are made to work when the bolt carrier is released at the rearmost point. When you baby it forward, it's not gonna work like it's supposed to.

It's not a new rifle and it is past the break-in period. I've noticed absolutely no difference in reliability since I bought it.

 

It is converted, but as I said in the initial post, I've already smoothed out the G2 hammer so that it no longer causes a hangup when the carrier is to the rear (referred to on here as the "poor man's BHO"). I'm referring to just the front. I've seen many AK design rifles have this same thing, so I know it is far from uncommon - in fact, all three S12s that I've handled have it. It bugs me, though, so I'd like to smooth it out. I do know that it is not the trigger group, though, cuz this occurs well after the bolt has already passed the trigger group. The friction surface that is causing this is somewhere in the front near the barrel. I'm not sure whether it is on the actual bolt itself, or part of the receiver.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Monk

[Monk 0]

does the gun do it under firing battery? meaning, does it fail to chamber when you shoot it?

 

 

like nalioth said, take the bolt all the way back and LET GO OF IT. its not a savage 270 bolt gun.

Occasionally it would fail to chamber properly and I'd get a failure-to-feed, but I just got done doing Mike D's feed ramp mod last night. I haven't fired it yet since modifying the feed ramp, but I did hand cycle it and it seems to feed better, so I'm pretty confident that I've corrected the feed issue.

 

My gun was also short-stroking sometimes and not ejecting the shell all the way, but I determined that this may be due to the height of the G2 hammer causing excess resistance - part of it was so high that it would often get caught up behind the hammer if I pulled the bolt carrier behind it, but after some dremelling (yes, I made sure that the part of the hammer that hits the back of the bolt was untouched), it rides back smoothly like it would with a factory hammer (actually a little better than with a factory hammer).

Edited February 22, 2008 by Monk

[Gunfixr 76]

First off, what you are noticing is the extractor. Because it is a 12 gauge, I suppose, and the case rim is so large, the bolt doesn't have a recessed breech face like the rifles do. Therefore the extractor sticks out from the breech face so it can grab the rim and hold it. If you ease the bolt carrier to the point where it stops and watch the extractor while you push it shut, you'll see it cam up onto the bevel on the side of the chamber some as the bolt carrier pushes the bolt into final position and it rotates to lock. This is normal, as the extractor will close to a position lower than the shell rim, to be sure to get a positive grip on the shell and extract it.

The only ways to ease this pressure and make the bolt close easier would be to grind back the bevel lead of the extractor, which I wouldn't do, weaken the extractor spring, again something I wouldn't do, or polish the bevel lead of the extractor and perhaps the edge of the chamber where it rubs, if you can get to it. This will probably not do a whole lot, though.

On my personal gun, I polished all edges of the bolt where it cams into lock, and the lug and matching recess in the carrier. Not the whole thing mind you, just where it rides as it cams the bolt to lock and unlock. Be very careful on the rear faces of the locking lugs, as this directly affects headspace. I also polished the grooves in the bolt carrier where it rides on the rails in the receiver. Just removed the high spots, not eliminating all cut marks. The rails themselves can be polished also. I also slightly beveled the end of the extractor point, as it was hitting the edges of the barrel extension some as it closed. You probably won't eliminate the "problem", but it will close with just a bit less pressure. Mine will close itself if let go from about where the bolt carrier contacts the cocked hammer. It feeds and operates fine. High brass shells will eject about 25 to 30 ft. forward and to the right. Low brass shells go about 8 ft.

[Bvamp 604]

I have 10k

 

 

ten thousand

 

 

rounds PLUS down my saiga 12

 

 

it has NEVER failed me, and when it has? I only needed to rack the bolt. try that with an 870 or 500. they JAM at this point, and the saiga just rack it up to good use, and goes right with it.....

 

 

the saiga12 is THE AMERICAN GUN, my friends. PERIOD.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Bvamp

[Gunfixr 76]

Well, there you go, 'nuff said.

 

I wasn't saying what I did to mine was required for the gun to function, I'm just one of those guys who can't leave anything alone. It may work just fine, but I WILL find a way to improve on it, even if only a small amount. It's the OCD.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Gunfixr

[Monk 0]

First off, what you are noticing is the extractor. Because it is a 12 gauge, I suppose, and the case rim is so large, the bolt doesn't have a recessed breech face like the rifles do. Therefore the extractor sticks out from the breech face so it can grab the rim and hold it. If you ease the bolt carrier to the point where it stops and watch the extractor while you push it shut, you'll see it cam up onto the bevel on the side of the chamber some as the bolt carrier pushes the bolt into final position and it rotates to lock. This is normal, as the extractor will close to a position lower than the shell rim, to be sure to get a positive grip on the shell and extract it.

The only ways to ease this pressure and make the bolt close easier would be to grind back the bevel lead of the extractor, which I wouldn't do, weaken the extractor spring, again something I wouldn't do, or polish the bevel lead of the extractor and perhaps the edge of the chamber where it rubs, if you can get to it. This will probably not do a whole lot, though.

On my personal gun, I polished all edges of the bolt where it cams into lock, and the lug and matching recess in the carrier. Not the whole thing mind you, just where it rides as it cams the bolt to lock and unlock. Be very careful on the rear faces of the locking lugs, as this directly affects headspace. I also polished the grooves in the bolt carrier where it rides on the rails in the receiver. Just removed the high spots, not eliminating all cut marks. The rails themselves can be polished also. I also slightly beveled the end of the extractor point, as it was hitting the edges of the barrel extension some as it closed. You probably won't eliminate the "problem", but it will close with just a bit less pressure. Mine will close itself if let go from about where the bolt carrier contacts the cocked hammer. It feeds and operates fine. High brass shells will eject about 25 to 30 ft. forward and to the right. Low brass shells go about 8 ft.

 

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you!!

 

Well, there you go, 'nuff said.

 

I wasn't saying what I did to mine was required for the gun to function, I'm just one of those guys who can't leave anything alone. It may work just fine, but I WILL find a way to improve on it, even if only a small amount. It's the OCD.

 

Haha, same here, my friend. It will bug me if I don't do anything about it, even if it won't necessarily help me all that much in terms of performance. Every little bit counts, IMO.

[Bvamp 604]

look, the saiga 12 gauge shotgun is the BADDEST mofo on the planet, people just dont know the real deal yet.....

 

 

figure you are a fortunate one.......thats all.....

 

 

....the BEST PART is this forum's membership WILL TAKE CARE OF YOU........

 

 

(just buy a 12 and get it over with, why dont ya I got your remingtons, benellis, and mossbergs RIGHT HERE, thanks)

Edited February 22, 2008 by Bvamp

[MikeD 541]

Monk, Take a look at this thread What should be polished/smoothed...

 

Also to answer another question you have. 2.44 inches or 62.2mm or under will work fine in the drums.

[Bvamp 604]

come on mike, DONT modify anything. you know where that will go, right????

 

 

 

get that drum out. if you need to talk, the boss would be happy to speak to you, if you open talks to them properly.....

 

 

give me a call if you need any outside info Mike.

 

 

we are backing you 120% now.

 

 

.............

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I would just like to ad a bit of info that I learned a while back. It is just a small part of the reason I decided the wraithmaker guys were a bunch of idiots. I was told by someone VERY respected and knowledgeable, that one of the things they recommended doing to get the S-12 to work with their drum was to weaken the extractor spring. I wonder if this is part of what they do in their "reliability service"...

 

As far as polishing contact surfaces to smooth out the action, I did all that a couple of years ago to my S-20 when it was giving me fits. I polished the rails, the carrier surfaces all around (especially the underside that rides over the hammer, the extractor, the FCG (everywhere it made contact), and hit all the bare metal with Break Free CLP. Then just to slick it up more I applied lithium grease on the sufaces. Messy but slick as snot on a doorknob! The action on that Saiga is like liquid now.

Still it didn't solve the cycling issues I had until I changed the recoil spring and broke it in with a bunch of magnum loads.

Now she works awesome!

[oldandslow 3]

I've had experience with the shell sticking in the breech. Field strip the Saiga. Take a shotgun shell and start it into the chamber. Push up on the shotgun shell while trying to push the shell into the chamber.

Mine stick on the "bump" just before the bolt slot on the right side of the gun.

[einherjrar 0]

I'm sure most of you have seen this - when cycling the action slowly, the carrier stops less than an inch from where it is supposed to. The point where it stops is the point right before the bolt rotates and locks into place. It would seem that the reason for it getting hung up would have to do with part of the bolt scraping against a cornered surface in the act of getting into the notches where it rotates into, but after a lot of squinting and mini-flashlight observation, I found that the rotating parts of the bolt don't even touch the corners as they go around them, so that can't be what causes the hangup.

 

I figure a dremel in the right area will cure this for good if I can find the right place to smooth out, similar to how removing some material from my Tapco hammer made it so that the carrier no longer gets hung up when you pull it slowly all the way back and let it go.

 

Does anyone have ANY idea of exactly what area causes this?

 

I read in the thread below that it might be the extractor or ejector, but even if it is, I have no idea which surface needs to be smoothed.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...l=action+smooth

 

 

-I admit and express freely that I only read the OP.

 

-I know what you're talking about. It bothered me for awhile, but when the trigger is engaged, the hammer moves and assists the bolt forward and still fires a shell on mine. I have not experienced any cyclic issues from this characteristic.

 

-I've fired less than 1000 rounds from mine though.