Question on BATF Form 1

[hbsseller 3]

I have a quick question on BATF Form 1. A guy at Uzi Talk on this post: Link says that he filled in Form 1, got aproval and then sent the s12 off to Tony to have it converted into a SBS. I thought I needed to have Form 4 if anyone else other than me was going to do the conversion. Can I use Form 1 and just send it off like this guy did?

[RDSWriter 5]

I have a quick question on BATF Form 1. A guy at Uzi Talk on this post: Link says that he filled in Form 1, got aproval and then sent the s12 off to Tony to have it converted into a SBS. I thought I needed to have Form 4 if anyone else other than me was going to do the conversion. Can I use Form 1 and just send it off like this guy did?

 

Yes, you can file the Form 1. By filing the Form 1 and receiving approval... YOU are the manufacturer... Tony would be 'just a gunsmith' that will be custiomizing it for you. If it makes you feel any better, you could hacksaw the barrel to the approximate length (slightly longer) and then ship to Tony. In the end, he's still going to re-cut and thread anyway.

Edited March 13, 2008 by RDSWriter

[madmax4x4 68]

Do you have to get the CLEO letter to do the from one? Also if you have a S-corp or self incorporated could you file a form 1 and if so were do you get the form? I have loked on ATF site and uhierfh.

[gmorgan 2]

Do you have to get the CLEO letter to do the from one? Also if you have a S-corp or self incorporated could you file a form 1 and if so were do you get the form? I have loked on ATF site and uhierfh.

 

 

Go here titleii.com this site has about all the ATF forms you would need and they have a neat little fill in the blank and print option

[jhereg 0]

If you are going to have Tromix do the conversion you don't need to file a Form 1. (Assuming Tromix is a C2) they would make it into a SBS & put their info on the gun as the maker of the NFA weapon. It would transfer back to on a Form 4, but if you are out of state I believe it would have to transfer to a dealer in your state.

 

On the other hand there would be a certain attraction to doing the F1 yourself. You would have to engrave the gun w/ your info as the maker, but then it would be repair/mods of an existing NFA weapon which unless I'm mistaken could transfer directly to Tromix & back to yourself. It would be worth checking to see if that's possible.

[madmax4x4 68]

But has anyone set up a corporation to get an NFA weapon if a CLEO can not be obtained?

I know I have ask a few time but I still don't know if any one has done so or knows how.

[oldandslow 3]

Some of our local guys have created a trust to acquire a short barrel rifle. This lets you avoid getting a CLEO signature. I actually don't know why, the local sheriff is NFA friendly.

 

If I was doing this, I would be in close contact with the BATF for the "correct" information.

[jhereg 0]

But has anyone set up a corporation to get an NFA weapon if a CLEO can not be obtained?

I know I have ask a few time but I still don't know if any one has done so or knows how.

 

I've done a trust for my AR15 SBR. I used Quicken Willmaker & it took about 30 min. Cost me $16 delivered from a vendor on ebay. The nice thing about using a trust/corp is no fingerprints, no signoff, no photographs. You do end up w/ more paperwork, but I'm in an area where neither the Chief of Police or the Sheriff will sign. It's not worth going through the list of other eligable people when I can do a trust in half an hour.

 

FYI, there is a good thread on ar15.com about using a trust to own NFA weapons. Last I looked it was 30+ pages, but there is a lot of good information if you want to spend an evening learning about the process. You can never know too much if you want to own an NFA weapon.

Edited March 13, 2008 by jhereg

[MickeyMouse 0]

A trust or corporation may purchase / make NFA items. Of course, no new machineguns can be made after May of 86 except for the gubermint.

 

I have done several transfers to corporations. No CLEO signature, no fingerprints, no pictures. Be sure to send copy of articles of incorporation and "citizenship form" for the owner (you). These kind of trnsfers are a bit quicker in most cases.

 

If you are not in the same state as tromix, go ahead and file the form 1 as it will save you $200. Same state, it doesn't matter. Be sure to engrave the required info on the gun when the form 1 is returned to you approved.

[Vultite 57]

Trusts or Inc work great, find a decent lawyer to do it for you, in the Tampa area we got a guy does them for around 450 or so, he been kinda hard to reach lately tho....hrm...anyways, its easily done, and you may will your guns to family and its a one time fee for a trust, you can also get your trust or inc name engraved on some NFA weapons depending who you buy from, ex. Noveske Arms will do it

[daskro 0]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

[jhereg 0]

A trust or corporation may purchase / make NFA items. Of course, no new machineguns can be made after May of 86 except for the gubermint.

 

I have done several transfers to corporations. No CLEO signature, no fingerprints, no pictures. Be sure to send copy of articles of incorporation and "citizenship form" for the owner (you). These kind of trnsfers are a bit quicker in most cases.

 

If you are not in the same state as tromix, go ahead and file the form 1 as it will save you $200. Same state, it doesn't matter. Be sure to engrave the required info on the gun when the form 1 is returned to you approved.

 

 

How is he going to save $200 if he does the F1 himself? It will be $200 for the F1 or F4 either way he does it when he makes it/ receives it. Beyond that unless I'm mistaken it should transfer tax free between SOTs. The only extra expense would be whatever a local C3 (or C2) would charge to do the transfer, but if he does it himself he'll have the cost of engraving and will have his info instead of Tromix on the side of the SBS.

[MickeyMouse 0]

A trust or corporation may purchase / make NFA items. Of course, no new machineguns can be made after May of 86 except for the gubermint.

 

I have done several transfers to corporations. No CLEO signature, no fingerprints, no pictures. Be sure to send copy of articles of incorporation and "citizenship form" for the owner (you). These kind of trnsfers are a bit quicker in most cases.

 

If you are not in the same state as tromix, go ahead and file the form 1 as it will save you $200. Same state, it doesn't matter. Be sure to engrave the required info on the gun when the form 1 is returned to you approved.

 

 

How is he going to save $200 if he does the F1 himself? It will be $200 for the F1 or F4 either way he does it when he makes it/ receives it. Beyond that unless I'm mistaken it should transfer tax free between SOTs. The only extra expense would be whatever a local C3 (or C2) would charge to do the transfer, but if he does it himself he'll have the cost of engraving and will have his info instead of Tromix on the side of the SBS.

 

You are correct! I had my head where the sun doesn't shine, thiinking of a two tax transfer but Tromix is a SOT holde so not like a two tax deal on privately owned out of state gun. Sorry.

[utpilot 0]

What's really nice about having a trust is that you can put whoever you want as your "trustees" and they can legally posses the weapons. I put my parents and a few of my better friends as trustees, and when I deploy I can leave all my NFA goodies with them.

 

Plus (as I just did earlier this morning for my Saiga 12) when I want to make rifle or shotgun a short, all I do is fill out a Form 1, citizenship card, make copies of my trust paperwork and send if off with a $200 check and it comes back about a month later. No waiting for CLEOs (Houston's people won't sign anyways), fingerprints or any of that jazz.

 

Trusts really are the best way IMHO to get NFA toys.

[aubie515 2]

My first suppressor I had my CLEO sign off on the paperwork, but from now on I will be going the Trust route. I choose the Trust route because I don't have the time to meet with the CLEO to sign off on my paperwork. I feel that the Trust will provide me with added benefits with my NFA items.

 

Tony is a week or two from starting on my SBS.

[jhereg 0]

What's really nice about having a trust is that you can put whoever you want as your "trustees" and they can legally posses the weapons. I put my parents and a few of my better friends as trustees, and when I deploy I can leave all my NFA goodies with them.

 

Where have you seen a list of the people in a trust who are authorized to possess the NFA items? I've heard several different theories & I'd like to see something authoritive.

[RDSWriter 5]

When I lived in Alabama, CLEO signatures were literally a breeze. Now that I'm in Florida, neither my local PD or Sheriff will sign.

 

Per everyone's comments above, a revokable living trust is the best route. I used friend's WillMaker to generate my trust (using tips from this board and ARFCOM). Then legally signed it in front of a notary. If you live in the Tampa Bay area, Anvil Arms will notarize for free - as many copies of it as you want. They are at almost every gun show in Tampa... so they are very easy to access. Total cost to me was $0 for my Trust (unless you count the cost to enter the gun show).

 

I've never had an issue with getting any of my Form 1 or Form 4s approved with this trust. But keep in mind that Florida is very easy on trusts... some states regulate them and/or require registration and/or fees.

[Vultite 57]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

I believe real RPK recievers are thicker then the saiga receivers, so no, VEPRs are made on RPK receivers.

[utpilot 0]

What's really nice about having a trust is that you can put whoever you want as your "trustees" and they can legally posses the weapons. I put my parents and a few of my better friends as trustees, and when I deploy I can leave all my NFA goodies with them.

 

Where have you seen a list of the people in a trust who are authorized to possess the NFA items? I've heard several different theories & I'd like to see something authoritive.

 

You can write in whoever you want to, depending on how your state works or how you set the trust up. The only "list" of people in a trust who have the weapon is whoever you put down. ATF only cares about the fact that the weapon is registered to a legitimate entity, and everything else falls under state trust regulations (so long as the individuals can legally posses weapons).

 

It's the same thing in a Corporation, where the officers of the corp are allowed to have the weapons, even though they don't personally own the weapons.

 

Remember the TRUST owns the weapons NOT you, you just control the trust and thus the weapons.

 

Now, if you somehow said "everyone" was a "trustee" you might run into tax evasion or something.

 

And it would behoove those people who are "trustees" when possessing the weapon to have a copy of the Form 1/4 and the trust documentation with them in case a LEO asks (but typically they have no clue what paper their looking at anyways and either freak-out or go "DAMN! That's cool!" about the guns).

Edited March 14, 2008 by utpilot

[daskro 0]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

I believe real RPK recievers are thicker then the saiga receivers, so no, VEPRs are made on RPK receivers.

So I was wrong about my presumption, is there an ak receiver that is similar in dimensions and tolerances that a saiga-12 could be built upon made before 86?

[madmax4x4 68]

Man thanks everyone above! I have already made the inc. but the only classIII dealer around me is Red Jacket/Red stick in Baton Rough but the guy Will was not sure how it was done. He was the one that explained the form 1 to me. But when I looked at the form1 it had a lot of ? about CLEO. I may have to try form1 with corp. than put my info on saiga saw off barrel and sent to Tromix to do gas mod as posted before. Like 500 on list so I guess I have time.

[madmax4x4 68]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

I believe real RPK recievers are thicker then the saiga receivers, so no, VEPRs are made on RPK receivers.

So I was wrong about my presumption, is there an ak receiver that is similar in dimensions and tolerances that a saiga-12 could be built upon made before 86?

become classIII dealer and make it a post sample my be easier lol

I wondered that to how much could you change transferable machine gun and keep it legal it would be nice if you could just weld the plate with # no it or bolt transferable sear to side

If the new calico uppers for mac work I maybe out 3500. 32 round mac nice 100 mac better

[jhereg 0]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

I believe real RPK recievers are thicker then the saiga receivers, so no, VEPRs are made on RPK receivers.

So I was wrong about my presumption, is there an ak receiver that is similar in dimensions and tolerances that a saiga-12 could be built upon made before 86?

become classIII dealer and make it a post sample my be easier lol

 

 

Make that and become a Class 2 Mfr. A C3 can't make anything that we can't make. They can just possess it as a pre or post sample after it has already been made.

[hbsseller 3]

UPDATE! Check was cashed on the Form 1 less that 2 weeks after sending it in. Still waiting for the paperwork back, but feeling good about the process so far!

[madmax4x4 68]

On the issue of NFA weapons, I was curious about the legality of a hypothetical scenario for civilians.

 

I've read (perhaps incorrectly)that Saiga-12s are built on RPK receivers. I've also read that you can get form 4 machine guns amended to different calibers, such as individuals who will get their m4/m16 registered for 9mm, 22lr, etc. If you had a registered RPK receiver on a form 4 and you were able to get the rpk receiver registered in 12 gauge, could you legally build a saiga-12 on that receiver and, in essence have a legally owned saiga-12?

I believe real RPK recievers are thicker then the saiga receivers, so no, VEPRs are made on RPK receivers.

So I was wrong about my presumption, is there an ak receiver that is similar in dimensions and tolerances that a saiga-12 could be built upon made before 86?

become classIII dealer and make it a post sample my be easier lol

 

 

Make that and become a Class 2 Mfr. A C3 can't make anything that we can't make. They can just possess it as a pre or post sample after it has already been made.

My bad c2 mfr but yea no what I mean.