jmhai 0 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 I have a Dinazg muzzle brake...It is great...Can I cut the barrel down so the 18.1" legal barrel is right to the end of the brake...? And if done will I have to weld the brake in place or can it still be screw on....? The brake is 3 inches long with about an 1 inch of barrel screwed into it, so do you think it's worth the trouble if possiable for 2 inches shorter...Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 If you were to do this the brake would have to be "permanently" attached, which for me means welding. Some guys think silver-soldering would work, but personally I wouldn't want to risk a felony on it. To be legal this would have to be done by a class 2 SOT since you would be manufacturing an SBS, albeit temporarily. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 (edited) If you were to do this the brake would have to be "permanently" attached, which for me means welding. Some guys think silver-soldering would work, but personally I wouldn't want to risk a felony on it. To be legal this would have to be done by a class 2 SOT since you would be manufacturing an SBS, albeit temporarily. Really? What if you disassembled the gun... take the bolt out or remove the stock or some such, so that it was not a complete firearm... and *THEN* cut the barrel. At no time during the period the bbl was under 18" would it be a complete firearm. If removable magazines are permitted to count as three 922r parts when the magazine is inserted in a gun, then it follows that temporarily disassembling a firearm to a "non-firearm" configuration should be sufficient to dodge the fact that for a short while the barrel will be under 18 inches. Edited March 22, 2008 by aresv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 No, since the ATF takes the position that the definition of an SBS includes any combination of parts from which an SBS can be assembled. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jmhai 0 Posted March 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 Thank you for the replies...It doesn't seem worth all the trouble for 2 inches... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 No, since the ATF takes the position that the definition of an SBS includes any combination of parts from which an SBS can be assembled. That sounds like a slippery slope. Wouldn't simply keeping a shotgun and a hacksaw under the same roof constitute intent to manufacture? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 22, 2008 Report Share Posted March 22, 2008 It's not too slippery. A disassembled SBS is still an SBS. Machine tools are not parts or any gun repair shop would be full of machine guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 It's not too slippery. A disassembled SBS is still an SBS. Machine tools are not parts or any gun repair shop would be full of machine guns. Well then, as long as you don't leave the barrel under 18 inches why should it matter that it is temporarily shorter? Removing the stock from a gun can temporarily reduce the overall length under the legal limit, but as long as you don't go out and USE it in that configuration, there is no crime. Same thing goes for the length of a barrel. I can understand that Tromix as a business would not want to be singled out by the ATF for perceived violations, so you'd err on the side of caution. However, it's still an error. Cutting the barrel and immediately welding a muzzle brake back on does not appear to violate any laws. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Just thinking out loud here. If you remove the barrel from the receiver, do the cut-down/weld-back job, re-install the barrel after your done, you never at anypoint had a completed shotgun that was under-length. JMHO (which is not the opinion of a lawyer, nor anyone else of any importance in LE) ML Roak(I wouldn't arrest him for it if he did it the way I suggested) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Well then, as long as you don't leave the barrel under 18 inches why should it matter that it is temporarily shorter? Removing the stock from a gun can temporarily reduce the overall length under the legal limit, but as long as you don't go out and USE it in that configuration, there is no crime. Same thing goes for the length of a barrel. The crime occurs when you cut the barrel shorter than 18". It's a felony. End of story. I can understand that Tromix as a business would not want to be singled out by the ATF for perceived violations, so you'd err on the side of caution. However, it's still an error. Cutting the barrel and immediately welding a muzzle brake back on does not appear to violate any laws. lol WRONG. I just told you why it's illegal. Granted, it would be hard to get caught for this, but you will commit a felony when you cut the barrel of your Saiga to under 18", period. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 No, since the ATF takes the position that the definition of an SBS includes any combination of parts from which an SBS can be assembled. That sounds like a slippery slope. Wouldn't simply keeping a shotgun and a hacksaw under the same roof constitute intent to manufacture? So if I sell the bolt to my friend in the shop for a dollar then do the barrel work, attach the break, pin/weld it on then buy the bolt back I'm good to go right? During that time I never own a "Combination of parts from witch an SBS cab be assembled." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Hey, whatever you're comfortable with. I know lots of guys break the law, and you're welcome to make your own choices. I just answer these questions with the facts as I understand them, and my opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aresv 49 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 (edited) Thanks, BobAsh. I appreciate your feedback I don't want to steer this thread towards "being comfortable" with breaking the law. It's about staying 100% legal no matter how dysfunctional the law may be. It is still a sticky situation, though, no matter how you slice it. Suppose you had two shotguns with interchangeable barrels (e.g. Mossberg 500s) one of which was a legally registered SBS. If you reinstalled the short barrel on the other gun, you'd be in violation. Simply possessing both guns under the same roof creates the "combination of parts" necessary to make either shotgun an SBS. No machining required. If one were to follow the letter of the law, SBS shotgun barrels should be permanently attached to their receivers. Here's an AOW Mossberg from Paladin Armory. BBL is removable, just like any Mossberg. If you owned this item legally, and also happened to own an 18+ Mossy that can swap barrels with it, you're a felon. Sucks, don't it? Edited March 23, 2008 by aresv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 I guess one conceivable way would be to pull the S12 barrel out of the trunnion, shorten it, and weld the brake back on before reassembly. I'm not totally sure about this, but it sounds like it ought to keep you out of trouble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 It's about staying 100% legal no matter how dysfunctional the law may be. Agreed, that's the only kind of advise I will give. If one were to follow the letter of the law, SBS shotgun barrels should be permanently attached to their receivers. It's the same problem with SBR AR's...the paperwork names the lower. Cover your ass at all times. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 A lot of hassle for 2 inches. To each their own. ML Roak Quote Link to post Share on other sites
skiboatsp 111 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 It's about staying 100% legal no matter how dysfunctional the law may be. Agreed, that's the only kind of advise I will give. If one were to follow the letter of the law, SBS shotgun barrels should be permanently attached to their receivers. It's the same problem with SBR AR's...the paperwork names the lower. Cover your ass at all times. Hey Bob. you are one patient dude!! I understand and agree with ya 100% I would never even think of cutting without approval Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hey Bob. you are one patient dude!! NFA laws are tricky and most guys don't understand them...I'm not an expert, but I don't mind helping out when I can. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swdhead 0 Posted April 4, 2008 Report Share Posted April 4, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mollysman420 19 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 Not a shottie but I shortened the barrel on my X39 who says I didnt buy it like that if its not regestered to mme "I bought it at at a fun show (my favorite excuse) DRAGONWOLF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 (edited) Dragonwolf, I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here, but for the benefit of the other readers I'll say this: It doesn't matter how you aquired it, if you are in possesion of an unregistered SBR or SBS you will be commiting a felony. Edited June 16, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jhereg 0 Posted June 16, 2008 Report Share Posted June 16, 2008 No, since the ATF takes the position that the definition of an SBS includes any combination of parts from which an SBS can be assembled. That sounds like a slippery slope. Wouldn't simply keeping a shotgun and a hacksaw under the same roof constitute intent to manufacture? So if I sell the bolt to my friend in the shop for a dollar then do the barrel work, attach the break, pin/weld it on then buy the bolt back I'm good to go right? During that time I never own a "Combination of parts from witch an SBS cab be assembled." I don't claim to be an expert on this subject, but the only way I can see for a non SOT to do this would be to remove the barrel from the shotgun, and then give the receiver (& any other guns which the bbl would fit) to someone who will possess it & not give you access while you are cutting/permanently attaching the muzzle device. Once you are done w/ the bbl, get the receiver back & put everything back together. I *THINK* this should be legal. You would never posess the receiver & bbl at the same time. I don't think just pulling the bolt would be enough. (In a rational world it would be, but our laws & enforcement are not rational IMO.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nsa400 11 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Ok so what is the shortest legal length of a shotgun with out a sbs form? With or with out a brake,flash hider,ect. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 18 inches............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 (edited) Joe is correct. 18" measured with a rod, from the Closed Bolt Face to the muzzle. Edited June 17, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nsa400 11 Posted June 17, 2008 Report Share Posted June 17, 2008 Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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