Went to an Appleseed

[appalacious 0]

Definitely the best 70 bucks I've spent in a long time. Toccoa was miserable with the rain and storms, but the instruction value was immense. Didn't use the saiga, although the guy beside me had a 7.62x39. I mostly used a 22 but pulled out the m1a at the end. I only qualified marksman so I still have a ways to go, but the fun factor was way up there. If you get the chance, definitely try to go to one. Apr. 19 is the anniversary of lexington/concord. Theres alot of appleseeds on that day since its on the weekend. Currahee!

 

 

J

[mr. fudd 0]

I'm going to one next weekend and spent about 3 hours testing various rifles today. I was planning on taking my Yugo SKS and I went ahead and put a Krebs peep sight from one of my AK's on it. After firing about 100 rounds through it though I still wasn't happy with the way it was shooting.

 

Fortunately however, my PSL and my M39 were both shooting great and the recoil didn't seem at all bad even when shooting from the prone. So I've got those two all cleaned, sighted in and ready to go.

 

One thing I am concerned about though is shooting with a sling. I'm told that's a big part of the class, but when I use a 1907 type sling with a tight or a snug grip it throws my point of impact off. Way off. I find I can accomplish the same stabilization effect of a shooting sling by using it as shooting harness instead of a sling, (it contacts my body differently, but does not pull on the stock or barrel), but I'm not really sure that'd be allowed.

[sicktooth 8]

whats an appleseed?

[Bender 1]

whats an appleseed?

 

 

Google is your friend.

 

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/

 

First I've heard of it too. Sounds great!

[appalacious 0]

First I've heard of it too. Sounds great!

It is great. and thanks for posting the link.

 

As far as the sling goes, they recommend the sling because of the benefit it gives. If it gives no benefit to you, then I can't imagine them demanding you use it. I can totally see them making sure you know HOW to use it when you get a rifle that can handle one. And they'll give you plenty of suggestions there. I've never shot the saiga with a sling, but I bet it would be fine with the barrel it has. If you can shoot 4moa with the setup you currently have in prone, sitting, and standing- you're a rifleman.

 

 

J

[mr. fudd 0]

Both rifles shoot alright with the sling and without, it's just that they don't shoot to the same point of impact. At 25 yards using a tight sling the groups are about 1.5" lower. At 100 yards they are about 6" lower. That's kind of a problem, because most of the time I don't use a sling.

 

I had about 200 rounds with me at the range yesterday and I spent about 50 of that experimenting with different sling techniques. I found that if I wrap the sling tight around my bicep and then slip my hand through the front loop, but leave it disconnected from the rifle, I got most of the stability without torquing on the barrel of the rifle and throwing off my point of impact. Even better was when I hooked the sling to my belt right near the small of my back, with the sling slung over my left shoulder. I just put my hand through the forward loop and used it to stabilize my hold. It felt a bit like I was giving myself a wedgie, but it also resulted in a very stable and consistent hold. It actually worked even better than a traditional tight sling since there was no tendency for the sling to move around.

[Flathead 0]

For those who are unfamilar with the Apple seed program, I am an IIT (instructor in training). I was at the toccoa apple seed this past week end and even with the rain and mud (if you can imagine clay turning to mud!) and we had a great turn out and put 4 shooters into the rifle man status. We teach shooting from field positons, standing, sitting or kneeling, and prone. The sling when used for more than just carrying your rifle and alot of stability to the human shooting platform. Most of the shooting can be done with cheap to shoot .22 rifles. The Toccoa range also gives shooters the chance to work in smaller groups because there is several small ranges plus the 300 yard range to put practice into application. One shooter that scored rifleman on the AQT (210 or higher) was using his M1A shooting wolf ammo kept a sub 3 MOA group. Another aplle seed will be there on the week end of April 19th, the 233 anniversary of the beginning revoluntionary war.

I would all levels of shooters to come check out this program and see what you think, you don't even have to be close to this range it takes place all over the united states.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Just my luck, the only one anywhere close to my part of the world is on a weekend I already have vacation plans over. Sounds like a hoot.

[getitat 609]

Hello

I'm trying to assemble some buddies to make the weekend of May 10/11 in Texas. It looks like it's about 25 miles NW of Bryan/College Station. I'm hoping the brutal heat will stay away 'till after that weekend....

 

I don't own a .22. The smallest caliber of rifle I own is a .39, with the other two .308's. Should I look for a .22 to take with, or could I run with a .39/.308 combo or two .308's for the weekend?

I also don't possess a spotting scope that will allow me to see .39-sized holes in paper at 500 yards. Do I have to find one? Man, with my old eyes, that would be a monster scope.....Maybe I could strap it to my rifle, as well....

Any type of sling that would be recommended? I have a variety of "tactical" slings, well, 3 or 4 anyway, but I've honestly never really utilized 'em. I have a feeling I could learn a whole lot at this....

 

Respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

[Cryptkeeper 0]

i just finished an appleseed course http://www.appleseedinfo.org/ yesterday and OMG is my body sore (lol). i have formal army basic training in which i scored expert marksman. i decided to take this course as a refresher, boy! they tought me more about how to shoot than basic trainning did.it cut my shot grps in 1/2 ! WoW!! if you have only had basic training markmanship or less trainning I HIGHLY RECOMMEND every1 go to one of these. keep checking the schedule a course may pop up close to you.

 

they are an all volunteer so they are not makeing anything from doing this.they use land from us who would like to learn rifleman skills and trainers will travel several 100's of miles to come teach your grp even if only 5 ppl show up. they will teach you the skill you need to become a rifleman. you will walk away knowing that you are shooting better.they will look hard at what your doing, and if its wrong they will show you how to fix the problem. they show you how to shoot in differnt postions and how to use your sling properly.shoot and change mag's and shoot more under a time limit..ect. they also during lunch talk about our fore fathers and what they really had to go through for us to have our freedoms.and what it took to qualify as a rifleman back then. it is important that we all not only know true rifleman skills, but to teach those skills to the next genertation.

 

if you want to improve your skills with a rifle you need to look into this sight. it will make you shoot better

 

 

this is my post after going to one last month.

for the money youll spend shooting the 308 you could just about buy a 10/22 lol

you dont really need a spotting scope everything is done at 25 yrds

scopes are ok to use they are teaching you the skill / art of shooting which you must have with or without a scope

 

glad to hear you guys liked it

Edited April 4, 2008 by Cryptkeeper

[pineapplejack 0]

"In short, a rifleman is an armed American, trained in the tradition of American Liberty. It's a man who has learned to shoot a rifle accurately — accurate enough to score "expert" on the Army Qualification Course. Until you can do that, you're considered a "Cook," unprepared and unqualified to carry a rifle on the firing line of freedom. But after attending an Appleseed AQT shoot, you'll have the credentials necessary to be a true rifleman, and will understand the critical need for defending freedom in this country."

 

What is that all about? Since when do I need credentials to carry a firearm? I am not intending

to flame anyone, but that statement is a little too pretentious for me. I respect people willing to

spend their own time helping others learn, but leave the qualification part out.

 

I know no one was asking for opinions, but that line just really stuck in my craw...

Edited April 7, 2008 by pineapplejack

[shaneman153a 39]

[pineapplejack 0]

Well, that's good then, I am already a "Rifleman" after qualifying expert for the first 16 years

of my military service. I hope that doesn't sound smart a$$y...

[Saigaczech 9]

They don't have Appleseed in my neck of the woods it seems. I was however in the USMC and took a Master certification in rifle from an academy that trains at local, state and federal levels. Does that count?

[pineapplejack 0]

I would consider you to be "qualified", can't speak for the Appleseed people.

Now, I am not meaning to be a smart-a$$ as I am relatively new here, and I

think the Appleseed program is a good thing. I just don't need anyone telling

me I'm qualified or not because I didn't go through this program... no

offense intended to anyone...sorry if I came off that way...carry on...

[IndyArms 10,186]

I would consider you to be "qualified", can't speak for the Appleseed people.

Now, I am not meaning to be a smart-a$$ as I am relatively new here, and I

think the Appleseed program is a good thing. I just don't need anyone telling

me I'm qualified or not because I didn't go through this program... no

offense intended to anyone...sorry if I came off that way...carry on...

 

Holy...

 

NO GOOSE-STEPPING...

 

dont be afraid to step on a few toes around here... we arent the mamsy pamsy bunch you will find the likes of on other places like arfcom... LOL

 

Its all good...

 

[dobravery 49]

If someone has already served in the Armed Forces then they've already taken up arms to defend America's Liberty.

 

I have not had the honor of serving in the US Armed Forces. Any program that uses military qualification as its instructional benchmark sounds good to me. Regardless of whether I'm a poor shot or already an excellent shot, I'd be interested in such instruction.

 

The Appleseed statement just says to me that they really want to encourage people to practice hard and score well using military standards.

[appalacious 0]

I would consider you to be "qualified", can't speak for the Appleseed people.

Now, I am not meaning to be a smart-a$$ as I am relatively new here, and I

think the Appleseed program is a good thing. I just don't need anyone telling

me I'm qualified or not because I didn't go through this program... no

offense intended to anyone...sorry if I came off that way...carry on...

I'll speak for the appleseed people, not as a representative, but as someone who claims to understand what they're about.

 

If you qualify expert, it doesn't matter where you learned how, or who trained you, or whether you trained yourself. The point is, you can shoot from standing at about 8 moa, and from sitting and prone at about 4moa. This puts you at a man-sized target at around 500 yards, consistently.

If you learned in military training, your light-years ahead potentially because you had MUCH more training than most appleseeders, who only got 2 days. And thats really great.

 

The main point of the appleseed program is to train riflemen, and to train those who can and will train other riflemen. There is no attitude within the appleseed program to put down those who haven't gone through the program if they are already expert riflemen. However, if you're an expert, and you have no motivation to share your knowledge with your fellow compatriot...lets just say they really like it when you have a "teacher's heart." This is more of a movement than a weekend course, I gathered.

 

FWIW,

J

[shaneman153a 39]

I would consider you to be "qualified", can't speak for the Appleseed people.

Now, I am not meaning to be a smart-a$$ as I am relatively new here, and I

think the Appleseed program is a good thing. I just don't need anyone telling

me I'm qualified or not because I didn't go through this program... no

offense intended to anyone...sorry if I came off that way...carry on...

 

I think the appeal for us military folks is being around like-minded people who aren't wearing LBV's and Kevlar. Additionally, I've always wanted to take my "POW's" (privately-owned-weapons) to the AQT and see what they've got. And, if you're Active Duty, it's free.

[mr. fudd 0]

Having qualified on both the Appleseed AQT and what was the Army M16 qualification test in the late 80's and early 90's, I found the Appleseed AQT to be the more difficult of the two. On the M16 qualification test I shot, (on which I did shoot expert), you fired 40 shots at pop up targets at ranges between 50 and 400 meters. You had 20 shots from the prone and 20 from a foxhole. If you knocked the target down you scored a hit. Expert was 36 and above.

 

On the Appleseed AQT you fire 40 shots at 25m at targets that are reduced in size to equal the their profile at 100m, 200m, 300m and 400m. 10 shots are fired at the 100m target from a standing position. You have 2 minutes to do this. 10 shots are then fired at a pair of 200m targets from a sitting position. You must start in the standing position and include a mag change in the process. You have 60 seconds to do this and you fire 5 shots at each target. 10 shots are fired at the 300m targets from the prone position. You also must start in the standing position and include a mag change and you also have 60 seconds for this one. You fire 3 shots at the first target, 3 at the second and 4 at the third. Finally, 10 shots are fired at the 400m targets from the prone. You start from the prone with no mag change and you have 90 seconds. You fire 2 shots at the first target, 2 at the second, 3 at the third and 3 at the fourth.

The targets are divided up into 3, 4 and 5 point areas. You simply add up your score with the 400m targets counting double. Expert is 210 and above.

 

I'd say the Appleseed course is more difficult because it is much more oriented toward long range shooting. 40% of your score is based on 400m targets and another 20% on 300m targets. Even the 100m targets are more difficult because you are shooting them from an unsupported standing position. It's a little bit easier in one way because you don't have to really locate your target like you do with the pop ups, but it's also a bit harder because paper doesn't give you points for mistakes. You've got the holes in the target and they don't lie. Pop up targets can be knocked down by shooting the dirt directly in front of them and if a shooter fires at the same time the pop ups are lowered he usually gets the point whether he hit the target or not. Also, there are no alibis on the Appleseed AQT. If your gun jams or fails to fire, it just sucks to be you.

 

My best score on the Appleseed AQT was 200, 10 short of expert. I used a PSL with stock iron sights.

 

One other thing to keep in mind about Appleseed. It teaches a style of shooting that was built around the M1903 Springfield, M1 Garand and M14 rifles. They teach you to use a sling in all positions and they teach you how to do it properly. There is one problem with that as I see it however. If your rifle doesn't have a one piece stock and a bolt handle on the right side then it's not really properly set up for that kind of shooting. When you shoot with a sling that is attached to the barrel of the rifle you pull it's point of impact down as you increase tension on the sling and unless your sling tension is the same from shot to shot your point of impact will vary. If you have the sling attached to a one piece stock however like on an M14 then the stock takes most of the stress and your point of impact will shift very little as you increase tension. Also, when your left arm is all wrapped up in a sling you must manipulate the controls of your rifle with your right hand. There was a guy there shooting an HK91 and I wish I'd asked him how he managed to charge that thing when he was in the prone position.