KrisFox 69 Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 (edited) I'm planing on SBS my AK-12. Bulk Pack Wallmart Ammo I'll be cutting the gas system to Krink length first as this is the hardest part mechanically. The only thing I haven't figured out yet is how short to cut the barrel. I want to go as short as I can without sacrificing much velocity or accuracy. At 25m I group 3 wolf 2 3/4 1oz slugs under 1 1/2'' using Dinzags AK sights. I have a Poly Choke II coming to me in the mail. So how short can I go before I might start grouping over 2 1/2'' or noticing a loss in velocity? 14'' sounds good to me... 12'' even better... Might I be able to go even shorter? Edited July 19, 2008 by KrisFox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sudaevpps43 31 Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 I don't know how much shortening the barrel will affect group sizes with slugs, but there have been posts before about how barrel length affects velocity. Here are a couple: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19103 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=16681 In case you were also wondering about how a shorter barrel length affects muzzle flash, there was a post about that too: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14789 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted July 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 I don't know how much shortening the barrel will affect group sizes with slugs, but there have been posts before about how barrel length affects velocity. Here are a couple: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19103 http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=16681 In case you were also wondering about how a shorter barrel length affects muzzle flash, there was a post about that too: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14789 Less than 10% loss even if I go from 18 to 12. Looks like velocity loss isn't too much a concern after all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kender 0 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 I know it's bad manners to hijack, especially on the first post but I figure it is better than cluttering up the forum with another thread that will end up with the same info, so............ take me to Lebanon Aside from BATF SBS tax what kind of cost would something like this be. Shortening to the point just before having to shorten the gas tubepiston Vs. shortening enough to need to modify the gas tube/piston (like a krink) ? would it be cheaper to just buy the 8" version. I am looking at this as a self defense weapon, not target or sport shooting. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 8" one is the coolest looking! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kender 0 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 8" one is the coolest looking! If the tromix price tag wasn't so much I'd just buy one of theirs. They have more mods done to theirs than I would care to get. I basically want a standard s12 either converted or factory built with the tactical (AK located) pistol grip, folding stock, 8" barrel, and treaded for a muzzle break. The other "bolt-ons" I would do later. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 (edited) I'll be cutting the gas system to Krink length first as this is the hardest part mechanically. Have you got a lathe? You know, you have to turn down the barrel since it gets larger near the trunnion. It's a pretty tricky setup, too. I can't tell you how mant shotguns Tony has had to fix because guys just cut them down. Edited July 23, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Yeah, theres a whole big mess o' mods that Tony does to the 8" guns to make them run reliably. Theres alot more to it than just a simple barrel chop. I didn't realize how extensive this was till I got to inspect my Tromix 8" personally. He's basically re-engineered the entire weapon to function as a reliable SBS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted July 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 So again I ask the unanswered question. So how short can I go before I might start grouping over 2 1/2'' or noticing a loss in velocity? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 (edited) So how short can I go before I might start grouping over 2 1/2'' or noticing a loss in velocity? Well it's not going to be easy to answer, since you are asking how well YOU will be able to group SLUGS. I doubt there is a body of data to draw from. Maybe you can cut your gun down incrementally and post the results. But in the interest of information, my 8" grouped about 10" w/00 @ 25 yards. Speer Lawman. Edited July 23, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 (edited) That would be an awesome bear defense gun! I may look at doing that in Alaska if the permits are easy enough to have one done. Oh yeah, and I would use it with slugs, 3" Brenneke! Edited July 23, 2008 by THE_HUNTER Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted July 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 So how short can I go before I might start grouping over 2 1/2'' or noticing a loss in velocity? Well it's not going to be easy to answer, since you are asking how well YOU will be able to group SLUGS. I doubt there is a body of data to draw from. Maybe you can cut your gun down incrementally and post the results. But in the interest of information, my 8" grouped about 10" w/00 @ 25 yards. Speer Lawman. The question would then be. If I stamp for 8'' am I ok if I decide 14 is good or do I need to do another stamp? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
anatak23 0 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 So how short can I go before I might start grouping over 2 1/2'' or noticing a loss in velocity? Well it's not going to be easy to answer, since you are asking how well YOU will be able to group SLUGS. I doubt there is a body of data to draw from. Maybe you can cut your gun down incrementally and post the results. But in the interest of information, my 8" grouped about 10" w/00 @ 25 yards. Speer Lawman. The question would then be. If I stamp for 8'' am I ok if I decide 14 is good or do I need to do another stamp? Assuming NFA for SBS is similar to SBR... You would not need a new stamp, but you would need to write the BATF informing them of the 'new' length, which they will note in the registry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
73cj5 1 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) 200.00 stamp 500.00 + base gun add on accessories $$$$$ Guaranteed to work??????? I went with a Tromix S17. Quality Experience Customer Service The price was not a consideration. If you really want something, save up and get what you really want. I didnt plan on spending the tax stamp money and ending up with a troublesome toy. I dont plan on selling it either so it was a one time cost. If you already have the base gun you only have to pay for the conversion. I have been down the road of "too good to be true prices and promises". I now do my homework and purchase what I want. If I don't have the cash, I just wait until I do. The only bad thing about Tromix is when you finally get what you want, Tony comes out with something cooler and you gotta have that too...... Edited July 24, 2008 by 73cj5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Thanks 73 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted July 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 (edited) 200.00 stamp500.00 + base gun add on accessories $$$$$ Guaranteed to work??????? I went with a Tromix S17. Quality Experience Customer Service The price was not a consideration. If you really want something, save up and get what you really want. I didnt plan on spending the tax stamp money and ending up with a troublesome toy. I dont plan on selling it either so it was a one time cost. If you already have the base gun you only have to pay for the conversion. I have been down the road of "too good to be true prices and promises". I now do my homework and purchase what I want. If I don't have the cash, I just wait until I do. The only bad thing about Tromix is when you finally get what you want, Tony comes out with something cooler and you gotta have that too...... I have nothing against Tromix. They just don't make what I want. What I really want is a AK-12SU that I made myself. I have already cut from 23'' to 18. Drilled 3 ports to 4 opening them up a bit, converted to pistol grip etc. Done all the dreaded mods everyone warns can ruin your gun if your not a pro. Other than user error with the gas plug setting or allowing the gas ports to get choked by hundreds of cheap rounds of crud I've had 100% reliability. I have a couple more stock S-12s on the way. One I plan to do as (Get this) A bullpup with a P90esq stock. The other I'll leave stock or send to Tromix if the line ever gets shorter. Bottom line. I'm teaching myself gunsmithing. I've risked $1000's of high end parts STI, Wilson, Vltor, Frames, actions, barrels. Often with nothing more than a drill a few hand files and a dremel. So far the only thing I've ruined was a $35 single shot .22 I got at a garage sale. Due to taking my own risks I now have several one of a kind firearms that would have cost $1000's more and years of wait to have made. But saving money and time waiting was not my driving force. I really enjoy working on my own guns. Every great gunsmith has to start somewhere. I wonder where Tony and the guys working with him got started? How many were working on there own guns before ever getting any formal training? Edited July 24, 2008 by KrisFox Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 for alll the talented gunsmiths affilaited with this site for the initiative to begin the process Oh, and you talented people really tick me off . ..uh, I mean, make me jealous Keep up the great work and innovation everyone Cheers, HarvKY Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 What I really want is a AK-12SU that I made myself. I applaud your efforts. I certainly have never discouraged anyone from doing their own work, in fact, I've made countless posts to assist guys in doing just that. But most of the time when a guys says he's going to SBS his gun, he's unaware of the difficulty involved. Good luck with yours and don't forget to post pics and range report when your done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFox 69 Posted July 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 What I really want is a AK-12SU that I made myself. I applaud your efforts. I certainly have never discouraged anyone from doing their own work, in fact, I've made countless posts to assist guys in doing just that. But most of the time when a guys says he's going to SBS his gun, he's unaware of the difficulty involved. Good luck with yours and don't forget to post pics and range report when your done. Well I plan to cut down an inch at a time and do range testing to see where the sweet spot is for me. I'll try to test with and without the Poly Choke II as well as Dinzags 74 break. I'll also be posting how muth more I open ports, what tubing I use for a krink gas tube, cutting the piston down, as well as other mods. I also plan to post my measurments for relocating ports gasblocks alignment issues turning the barrel etc. I hope to be able to leave enough of a guide behind that anyone good with a lathe and a drill press should have no prob doing the same thing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 The only bad thing about Tromix is when you finally get what you want, Tony comes out with something cooler and you gotta have that too...... Heh, heh, heh...................ALWAYS something cookin' in the TROMIX lab.............. !! (...................where's that elf video ?????????) (.........or Tony's magic bore-brush????) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kender 0 Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 200.00 stamp500.00 + base gun add on accessories $$$$$ Guaranteed to work??????? I went with a Tromix S17. Quality Experience Customer Service The price was not a consideration. If you really want something, save up and get what you really want. I didnt plan on spending the tax stamp money and ending up with a troublesome toy. I dont plan on selling it either so it was a one time cost. If you already have the base gun you only have to pay for the conversion. I have been down the road of "too good to be true prices and promises". I now do my homework and purchase what I want. If I don't have the cash, I just wait until I do. The only bad thing about Tromix is when you finally get what you want, Tony comes out with something cooler and you gotta have that too...... After looking at the price for a base saiga12 plus the conversion, plus the sbs mod, OR the saiga12 with factory pistol grip/folding stock plus the sbs conversion.....both of these end up being about $100 less than buying tromix's 8" version. I think I would rather pay the extra $100 than go through FFL shipping at least 3 times. So I guess I'll have to save up a few more bucks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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