Possible 410 safety issue?

[iteachsurfing 50]

Possible 410 safety issue ... not sure?

 

I was testing out the functionality of the new Surefire 10 rounder's.

A few rounds were not feeding correctly and became very slightly deformed.

Then it appeared some of the deformed rounds that were able to feed where either...

feeding extremely slow or not chambering into the battery completely.

So I tested (without ammo) to see if the trigger would fire without the bolt being fully closed.

Sure enough it does?

So my question is;

Can a 410 can fire out of battery, causing a catastrophic failure?

Does this go for the rest of my Saiga's, 12, 20, 308, 7.62 & 223 ?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Actually, all my AKs are like that. I just confirmed this with all three Saiga shotties (410, 12, & 20) and all three rifles (x39, .223, & .308), along with a Polish, a Norinco, and a Mak-90.

[Superhawk138 202]

It looks like on my .410 that the hammer will hit the firing pin when there is about a 1/4" gap between carrier and trunnion, but it also appears that the bolt itself has allready locked in place at that time.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Superhawk138

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

On all mine if you pull the trigger with the bolt back even half way, the hammer will fall and chase it all the way home. Like Superhawk said though, the bolt has to be pretty far forward for the hammer to actually make contact with the back of the firing pin. I think the deal is, with the spring loaded firing pin it has to hit it pretty good and hard for it to come out of the bolt face and actually strike the primer.

[Twinsen 86]

I think I might have had two or three shots out of battery using those mags.

 

The cases were pretty fucked up, but hey, I lived! Yay! Also, shit went downrange and I smiled. With American ammo, no problem.

[turbo1889 1]

The Saiga and all similar designs are of Russian engineering. Russian engineering isn't concerned with litigation and rubber padding all the corners. Therefore it is of no suprise to me that the hammer will still fall even with the bolt not all the way into battery. Some like little teeny box shaped worlds with padded walls to keep them from accidently hurting themselves with their nanny and lawyer right by their side --- for such individuals I do not recommend they buy, own, or come near any kind of gun much less a Saiga. For them I would recommend a plastic water pistol if anything probably loaded with 100% organic fruit juice or filtered bottled water.

 

For those who live in the real world and are willing to accept living and all it's inherent risks and principles such as "Liberty" and "Personal Responsibility" with a mature mind the Saiga is exactly what it should be elegent simplicity of raw logical and realistic engineering --- just be warned don't be stupid with it because it is after all a killing machine.

Edited September 18, 2008 by turbo1889

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Thought I might add...my SKSs won't fire til the bolt is locked into battery. Completely different and earlier Russian design....

[lenf 5]

Scroll down the 410 forum to "Gun Problem or Ammo Problem" posted by RockhoundTX. He had a case of bad ammo with deformation of the brass. After various opinions the issue was resolved and it was determined that the ammo was defective. But. My addition to the discussion was this.

 

"The only other ammo problem I've had was three Winchester #4 magnums splitting their plastic cases. A straight line as though it had been cut with a knife. They seemed a little louder than normal and I got spattered with powder. I didn't realize what had happened until I picked up the cases. Three shells, all out of the same box. I've put well over 800 rounds through the gun and these were the only problems I've had."

 

I wonder if this was firing with the bolt not fully closed. It would certainly explain the louder report and the powder spatter. Anybody else seen this?

[iteachsurfing 50]

Thought I might add...my SKSs won't fire til the bolt is locked into battery. Completely different and earlier Russian design....

 

Is there any way to make our Saiga's safer, Part's, Kits, etc.

also check out this vid ... pretty much what I want to avoid.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEEXQ2UCQ9o

[WardenWolf 6]

I wouldn't particularly worry about it. AK's have a rotating bolt and the position the bolt ends up when the action closes can vary somewhat. If the bolt is slightly forwards instead rearward when the action slams shut, it can result in it looking like the action isn't quite closed. There will be a small gap between the receiver and the cocking lug. The round is fully chambered and the bolt is fully closed, but the rotating bolt just didn't quite finish rotating to the rearward position. In short, you have nothing to worry about. It won't hurt you. These problems should clear up on their own once the gun breaks in, but if it still happens occasionally it won't do anything.

 

As for the video, the AK didn't blow up, but it appeared he had a slam fire or a case head separation (pretty sure it was a case head separation because the smoke appeared as the chamber opened). Saigas have a sprung spring which prevents slam fires. Case head separation can be avoided by using decent ammo. Brass cases are much less prone to this because they can expand before they break. Fortunately, he was obviously not injured.

 

Here's what I think happened: he fired, the case head separated from the casing, and the powder blast was partially directed rearward, hence the smoke flying out of the chamber as it opened. The AK likely was not damaged, and the guy was not hurt. He was lucky.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Mike the Wolf

[drooling idiot 1]

The original Russian FA AK47 design has a sear that holds the hammer preventing release until the bolt was virtually locked forward.

The BATFE does not allow this sear to ever be in a SA AK model for our own protection , its the feature that defines FA.

[RockHoundTX 10]

If you can show a picture of the spent rounds it would help. As was mentioned above, the lip of the rounds in the Saiga .410 is not fully supported. As such, rounds with softer brass (mostly seems to be European rounds such as Estate, RIO, etc.) will deform and get stuck in the chamber. When I went to Remington and Winchester brass the issue totally went away. Now my problem is actually FINDING the empty shells after I shoot them. The Saiga .410 launches the empty shells further than any gun I have ever owned (my CZ-52 is a close second).

 

If you think this is a mag issue, just put some paint on the mag lip and cycle the bolt a few times. It should be obvious if the bolt carrier is rubbing and thus keeping the bolt from fully closing (and conversely causing a slow cycle).

[chevymann 13]

FWIW... My S12, X39, 410 and a Draco AK pistol all will drop the hammer out of battery. Sounds like most Kalashnikov style weapons will as well. Anybody got one that doesn't? Not worried as I think the rotating bolt design has been proven reliable.

[Twinsen 86]

The original Russian FA AK47 design has a sear that holds the hammer preventing release until the bolt was virtually locked forward.

The BATFE does not allow this sear to ever be in a SA AK model for our own protection , its the feature that defines FA.

 

Holy McShit

[G O B 3,516]

I don't have chamber gauges to verify, but since the Russian steel hulls have a larger thicker rim, and the ropunds are on the large side in diamater, I would believe that the chambers on the Russian shotties is some where between large and HUGE.

 

About firing out of battery, the carrier shrouds the tail of the bolt untill the bolt is locked. The carrier then continues forward a conciderable distance. The weapon can fire quite safely before the carrier is completly "home".

 

I had to figure all this out when building the wife's AK since all the parts are mongrells with NO 2 parts from the same weapon, and most verry worn. I came up with a test.

 

SAFTY TEST:

 

EMPTY weapon. Rack the bolt back and let it slam home . Insert wooden dowel or shotgun cleaning rod in barrel and MARK the rod. Remove the dustcover and the recoil spring. Watch the action of the parts while cycling the action. I held the weapon in a vice with the muzzle up so I could do this with one person. Remember that when the bolt goes home during a normal cycle there will be CONCIDERABLE rotational torque imparted to the bolt from the carrier, By best guess I figure about as much as a sharp blow with an 8oz ball peen hammer. The actual bolt locking takes place in a real short amount of travel due to the nature of the angles of the camming surfaces and where this occures is easily verified by observing the dowel with just the bolt, and then with the carrier and the bolt.

 

Hope this helps, it don't take long and will give you a better appreciation of Mr. K's genious!