thehammerglock17 0 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 If my Saiga cycles low brass bulk packs from walmart Federal AND winchester on gas setting 1 and 2 is that a cause for concern? On setting 1 it puts the hulls about a foot and half away from me at the 2 o'clock possition, and on setting 2 it flings the hulls about nine feet to my 3 o'clock possition. Now im afraid to shoot magnum loads and heavy stuff from it. It has 3 gas ports, and i have yet to shoot heavy loads through it because of this.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lobstah 0 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Thats pretty good. Mine doesnt cycle low brass on 1, but does fine on 2. 3" 00buck flies about 10-12 ft away on 1 though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 (edited) Thats pretty good. Mine doesnt cycle low brass on 1, but does fine on 2. 3" 00buck flies about 10-12 ft away on 1 though. No, that is not good... This is BAD... It means that your gun is over gazed and the bolt carrier is likely to hammer the back of the receiver with high power shells. I strongly suggest you get Gunfixr's new gas plug from MDArms and put a Blackjack buffer in your gun. Edited January 28, 2009 by The Globule Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 5.56 0 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Thats pretty good. Mine doesnt cycle low brass on 1, but does fine on 2. 3" 00buck flies about 10-12 ft away on 1 though. No, that is not good... This is BAD... It means that your gun is over gazed and the bolt carrier is likely to hammer the back of the receiver with high power shells. I strongly suggest you get Gunfixr's new gas plug from MDArms and put a Blackjack buffer in your gun. Im with him.....Bad, not good. Sounds overgassed. Gas plug should do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volfandan 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 I hope I'm not getting OT here, but I am curious about the whole buffer thing with Saigas. I had noticed that on Tromix's website under Operational Tips, Tony has STRONGLY recommended NOT using buffers in Saigas. I did a search on buffers, and noticed that quite a few members DO use buffers. So, what's the deal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 Some folks love buffers, some hate them. The issue many folks have had with using a buffer in a Saiga 12 is that the bolt overtravels the magazine far less than a 7.62 AK, which overtravels a couple inches or so. Because there isn't much overtravel, when you put a 1.4" piece of rubber in the back of the receiver, it shortens the carrier's travel even more. This has (on some guns) led to magazines not being able to cycle up the next round fast enough, or the round failing to fully eject. Removing the buffer often solves the problem. On the other side of the coin, if you have a gun that you tend to shoot light loads through, and have the gas settingon 2, then accidently forget to switch it to 1 before firing heavier rounds, the carrier will slam into the rear trunnion and potentially cause exessive wear. The buffer would take some of the shock out ot it. With an overgassed gun, you would (as was mentioned) benefit from GunFixr's gas plug to help regulate things and ease the wear. You COULD try a buffer (I hear BlackJack makes a good one) and see how it cycles. Worst case scenario, you'll experience feeding/ejecting problems. If so, take the buffer out. My S-12 is boderline to being overgassed I think. On setting 1, it will cycle Wally's Federal bulk stuff, but only when fired from a solid platform (shoulder). Hip firing causes FTE. So would trying to bumpfire it on setting 1. Setting 2 lets the gun cycle through that stuff like crazy. It kicks a tad more, but not much. For a slug or something, I'd probably go with setting 1. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lunyfringe 1 Posted January 28, 2009 Report Share Posted January 28, 2009 My S-12 is boderline to being overgassed I think. On setting 1, it will cycle Wally's Federal bulk stuff, but only when fired from a solid platform (shoulder). Hip firing causes FTE. So would trying to bumpfire it on setting 1. Setting 2 lets the gun cycle through that stuff like crazy. It kicks a tad more, but not much. For a slug or something, I'd probably go with setting 1. I think mine is probably overgassed- it chucks low-brass, 1oz federals (game loads, lighter than mega-packs) about 3-4 feet on setting 1... I managed o get a FTE firing from the hip on setting one with this ammo.. haven't tried winchester low brass, but sounds like I may want to do something- I've run some 3" nitrosteel thru it, and some 2.75" 00 buck... don't notice any damage, so maybe it's right on the edge of overgassing... maybe I'll try a buffer & gunfixr's gas plug... Thanks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Don't be Anal. Look at the rear trunnion and see if there is a LOT of impact from the carrier. Put a piece of tape back there and see if it gets hammered ONLY using lo-brass. IF there is it STILL might not be overgassed but possibly a weak recoil spring. So what happens if you put in a Gunfixr gas knob and a new spring and it does the same thing? What, send it back? I'd say you have a functioning firearm and quit worrying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I think I remember someone posting here a good while back about using 1911 recoil springs in his gun. And Wolff makes a wide variety of different spring rates for 1911s. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I'll go ahead and ask the obvious ... did you screw the gas plug in ALL the way, THEN back it out? You know, it will screw in untill it clicks and then do a couple more full turns (with the detent held in) until it bottoms out. Frankly, if your gas ports have a standard configuration, then I'm having a hard time understanding how it can be OVERgassed ... unless those ports are reamed out or look larger than normal. Under gasing because the are occluded or something is easy to believe. Over gassing with standard size ports is hard to fathom. Agree with above, if the plugs in correctly, the springs may be well worn or weak. You can check the springs and get a rough reading by putting the spring over a bolt, use a washer to compress the spring most of the way with the unit on top of a scale. It's rough, but you could check it against a known spring and get an idea if it's grossly undersprung. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 Have there been reports of new Saigas being delivered with springs that are too weak? Mine was made in November or December '08 I think and I just took delivery of it a couple weeks ago. I've got a little over 100 rounds through it and I CAN see an indentation of the firing pin on the rear trunnion just a little. Hardly enough to notice unless you were looking for it. Still, that's after only 100 rounds. If it extends the life of my Saiga by getting a gas plug and a buffer, that's what I'll do. If wanting to take care of my weapon from the start makes me anal, then that's cool with me. I just want to keep it working well for as long as possible. If the buffer causes issues, I'll remove it. Pretty simple. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 5.56 0 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I'll go ahead and ask the obvious ... did you screw the gas plug in ALL the way, THEN back it out? You know, it will screw in untill it clicks and then do a couple more full turns (with the detent held in) until it bottoms out. Great question and suggestion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lunyfringe 1 Posted January 29, 2009 Report Share Posted January 29, 2009 I'll go ahead and ask the obvious ... did you screw the gas plug in ALL the way, THEN back it out? You know, it will screw in untill it clicks and then do a couple more full turns (with the detent held in) until it bottoms out. Frankly, if your gas ports have a standard configuration, then I'm having a hard time understanding how it can be OVERgassed ... unless those ports are reamed out or look larger than normal. Under gasing because the are occluded or something is easy to believe. Over gassing with standard size ports is hard to fathom. Agree with above, if the plugs in correctly, the springs may be well worn or weak. You can check the springs and get a rough reading by putting the spring over a bolt, use a washer to compress the spring most of the way with the unit on top of a scale. It's rough, but you could check it against a known spring and get an idea if it's grossly undersprung. I'll give you the obvious answer- yes, I screwed it in all the way, then backed it to setting 1... and perhaps that's where the difference is- mine ALMOST makes it back to 1 a few turns after the detent starts catching, but not quite- so I have to go past 2, and back to 1... (threads not tapped as deep as some others???) I'll look closer to see what's bottoming when I screw in the gas block.. it's not worn, I've got less than 100 rounds thru it... most of those have been Federal game loads (1oz #6 shot) anyone have a rating on the spring? (I don't have a stack of Saigas to compare to) I can make a buffer from something like electrical tape, to see if I have the clearance to install one... and see how quickly it's destroyed by 3" magnums.. :-P Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lunyfringe 1 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 Don't be Anal. Look at the rear trunnion and see if there is a LOT of impact from the carrier. Put a piece of tape back there and see if it gets hammered ONLY using lo-brass. IF there is it STILL might not be overgassed but possibly a weak recoil spring. So what happens if you put in a Gunfixr gas knob and a new spring and it does the same thing? What, send it back? I'd say you have a functioning firearm and quit worrying. I took a closer look, and it's not as bad as I remember- it turns 1/3 turn past 1, before it bottoms out (on the outside edge of the gas plug, like it should), then rotates back to 1... looking at the rear trunnion, the finish is worn off, but there is no damage to the metal... so I feel better- will keep an eye on it. remember- just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) I'm at a loss, Perhaps it's 'Shotgunners' as a group or maybe it's just new Saiga 12 owners but I've never seen anybody worry so much. Having owned and fired many AK based firearms I can understand how someone that's never owned one could have questions about reliability etc. Saigas might need 'tweaking' a bit but for God's sake it's an AK! THE most robust and reliable firearm on the planet for 60+ years. I did a demonstration a few years back. I took an AKM and fired a few shots then started stripping parts off of it until it would not fire. Care to guess how many parts I stripped off? Actually it's EASIER to figure what parts were left! So don't worry about your Saiga blowing up, burning out or failing to go BANG once the round is in the pipe OK? Edited January 31, 2009 by Etek Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lunyfringe 1 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I'm at a loss, Perhaps it's 'Shotgunners' as a group or maybe it's just new Saiga 12 owners but I've never seen anybody worry so much. I wouldn't say I'm worried- but the Saiga-12 is actually my first AK-based weapon... since I saw them on the web, I was fascinated by the idea- take the most reliable, rugged, tough, albeit less that ideally accurate platform & make it into a semi-auto shotgun, a group of firearms that has been plauged with reliability problems- the semi-auto shotgun.... I think it's an awesome shotgun- wish I'd found out about them a long time ago (especially when I see what the old prices were) now that I know what to look for, I'm not worried at all- I should be able to see if it's hammering the rear trunnion and do something about it... Thanks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Mine is over gassed a bit, I used a file to clean the factory gunk paint off of the end of the gas block where the blind plug seats - that allowed it screw in far enough to work right. I also use a green BJB, and have no problems with cycling rounds or battering of the rear trunnion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Mine is over gassed a bit, I used a file to clean the factory gunk paint off of the end of the gas block where the blind plug seats - that allowed it screw in far enough to work right. I also use a green BJB, and have no problems with cycling rounds or battering of the rear trunnion. G O B, I think you're on to something. I'd bet lots of folks are simply not screwing the gas knob in all the way due to manufacturing tolerance stack-up or as you said, paint. Thankfully Gunfixr's new gas knob will allow all of us to fine tune our Saigas. Mike D. has stated that in his opinion after much testing that many Saiga 12s are indeed a bit overgassed which is why he now supplies a Gunfixr designed knob with his drums. Fine tuning the gas system certainly cannot hurt but in my opinion I'd rather have a bit of overgassing for reliablity. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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