rssfndly 14 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 You could contact your Local ATF office. They will be the most knowledgeable to your local laws. NY law differs by city and county if I remmeber corectly. I know that sounds intimidating to call them but I call the ATF when I am in doubt of something, being an FFL holder I have to answer to them so it just makes sense. FWIW I hear ya, ill have to find out the number for one of their ny offices... Should i just tell them my intention and see what they say? Call them and ask to talk to an investigator. Just be honest with them and state you don't want to brake any laws. Tell them what you want to do and you want to know if it's legal in your area. There is no harm in asking questions, and the ATF has always told me it's better too call and ask questions than not. They have always been very helpful when I run across something I was unclear about. Document the date and time you called and the person you talked too for reference to possible future questions. I have the ATF firearms regulations books for all 50 states but it's all written for people with a law degree. Plus in NY York the ban still exists in some places but not others. sounds simple enough.. shouldnt have a prob doin that... Have you ever run into any situations where they say something shouldnt be done but the laws are kinda shaky on it? meaning, it could go either way... I have run into an issue about the definition of a Flashider with the ATF. The ATF said if it had holes or slots that were symmetrical it was a flash hider. The brakes that were made during the AWB ban had holes that were at 90 degree intervals and were considered symmetrical. But they were ATF approved as brakes not flash hiders. I have seen slotted M16 cage flashiders that didn't have 2 slots on the bottom but the ATF said they were flash hiders. This was many years ago and I am not trying to start a debate. I am just saying that this is what the ATF said. Thay said holes or slots As far as 922r and AWB's they are dead set. For now, ill play it safe. When it comes to long guns, im not that fluent in what is legal and what can get by and all that other stuff. Too me it sounds like this, since the AWB is still in effect state wide you will not be able to convert your S12. You can still tweek it for better preformance and add a rail system for accessories and a better fixed stock than the factory one. You can even add a Krebs sight set up as well. You just can't have high caps, pistol grip, flashider or folding stock. You may be able to put on a Tromix shark brake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 REALLY? Where can i find info on that? Are they as reliable as the polymer? I thought that 922r stuff only applied to rifles... I know i read sumthn about there are 13 or 14 parts to the shotguns and 5 parts have to be american parts to consider it an american weapon?? Wood stocks : American: http://dinzagarms.com/furniture/brg3/brg3-index.pdf If imported dosn't bother you just serch around. 922r applies to shotguns also. and yea 13 parts for a unthreaded barrel, 14 for a threaded. This shouldn't be to big a worry as your planing on a conversion and the FCG counts as 3 off the bat. throw in a gas piston from either tromix, chaos, or king armory, and you meet the requirements without a american magazine. If you get american made wood stocks you would be down another 2 also. 922r parts drop like flies once you get into your gun. when i have a american made mag in mine i'm considered to have 5 imported parts. Maybe once KA starts making barrels i can get below that... thanks, ill check'em out... appreciate the good info... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Too me it sounds like this, since the AWB is still in effect state wide you will not be able to convert your S12. You can still tweek it for better preformance and add a rail system for accessories and a better fixed stock than the factory one. You can even add a Krebs sight set up as well. You just can't have high caps, pistol grip, flashider or folding stock. You may be able to put on a Tromix shark brake. I hear ya... thats not too bad... with all that done, should be an even more fun shotgun... I cant wait.. should be able to afix a surefire light and laser sighting to the rail system, along with the new but stock... it'll be fun.... what about internals, polishing, lightening, can anything be done internally? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Glad to see another NYer join! Welcome to the board. I guess I'm pretty late to this thread, and I can't think of anything to add, really. Everyone else did a good job of covering all bases. Like NailBomb said, contact him, IndaArms, or myself, if you have any NY-specific questions. You can also check the link in my signature, for NY-specific stuff. Again, welcome fellow NYer! what about internals, polishing, lightening, can anything be done internally? Check out this thread: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=20234 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 yuppers... What they all said... Its will not be as crazy as it all may seem... eventually... Welcome to the Forum... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 yuppers... What they all said... Its will not be as crazy as it all may seem... eventually... Welcome to the Forum... Thanks and thanks to shooter for the link... great info in there.... Can someone explain to me why we need to put american parts on it? The shop had no prob selln me the saiga, is it currently illegal??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Too me it sounds like this, since the AWB is still in effect state wide you will not be able to convert your S12. You can still tweek it for better preformance and add a rail system for accessories and a better fixed stock than the factory one. You can even add a Krebs sight set up as well. You just can't have high caps, pistol grip, flashider or folding stock. You may be able to put on a Tromix shark brake. Well you can convert it just don't put a pistol grip on it. There are a small handful of stocks out there for AKs that have the grip connected to the butt stock in some manner. Just like during the Federal ban when all the AKs had thumbhole stocks on them. Or you can install a button on the magazine to make it "non detachable" you just have to be creative. Of course do this all within your own personal comfort zone. On 922: Counting parts only comes into play if you put an "evil" non-factory, "non-sporting" feature on the shotgun like a non factory original magazine or a pistol grip. Then you have to have a certain # of American parts. The Saiga 12 from the factory is a sporting firearm so it is exempt. Stick in a 10 round mag now it is a killing machine and is covered under 922r. Makes sense don't it? Edited March 10, 2009 by lipadj46 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 yuppers... What they all said... Its will not be as crazy as it all may seem... eventually... Welcome to the Forum... Thanks and thanks to shooter for the link... great info in there.... Can someone explain to me why we need to put american parts on it? The shop had no prob selln me the saiga, is it currently illegal??? Oh its perfectly legal in stock configuration. But put a muzzle device on(even a choke), or go to slap in a high cap mag and your now in violation of a federal importation law.(and the thumbhole being a grey area you might wanna meet 922r too... no really HIGHLY SUGGESTED) if you just wanted 5 rounders and a smooth bore without a choke, your in the zone now! I recomend doing things a different way. Get the parts, have some fun playing with the internals, learn a weapon inside and out. Have 8 or 10 round mags, get a breacher or a choke, use a thumbhole stock. Damnit isn't that 1/2 the point? Everything from tactiCOOL to turkey guns has a pistol grip or thumbhole on it nowadays, gotta be a reason right? I find the stock S-12 to be a spirited and robust weapon, but very unrefined, and lacking many features my personal taste likes. My customized S-12 makes me look for any reason whatsoever to get out and shoot it. I never had any interest in trap shooting befor i bought this gun. Now trap shooting is a perfect excuse for me to get some friends out to the range, and tull the trigger on my favorite gun. I was never interested in hunting growing up, now i keep options open for deer and fowl shooting(another excuse to play with the gun). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Too me it sounds like this, since the AWB is still in effect state wide you will not be able to convert your S12. You can still tweek it for better preformance and add a rail system for accessories and a better fixed stock than the factory one. You can even add a Krebs sight set up as well. You just can't have high caps, pistol grip, flashider or folding stock. You may be able to put on a Tromix shark brake. Well you can convert it just don't put a pistol grip on it. There are a small handful of stocks out there for AKs that have the grip connected to the butt stock in some manner. Just like during the Federal ban when all the AKs had thumbhole stocks on them. Or you can install a button on the magazine to make it "non detachable" you just have to be creative. Of course do this all within your own personal comfort zone. On 922: Counting parts only comes into play if you put an "evil" non-factory, "non-sporting" feature on the shotgun like a non factory original magazine or a pistol grip. Then you have to have a certain # of American parts. The Saiga 12 from the factory is a sporting firearm so it is exempt. Stick in a 10 round mag now it is a killing machine and is covered under 922r. Makes sense don't it? Really? hahaha nice.... So, i guess i should put the 10rd mag away until i finish'er up... Man you guys have been great, thanks for all the info.... Im well on my way to gettn things done... I found the number to the local atf office. So if i run into any issues or questions (that i cant find the answer on here), i can always give them a call... is there any problem with putting on a forward handle? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Too me it sounds like this, since the AWB is still in effect state wide you will not be able to convert your S12. You can still tweek it for better preformance and add a rail system for accessories and a better fixed stock than the factory one. You can even add a Krebs sight set up as well. You just can't have high caps, pistol grip, flashider or folding stock. You may be able to put on a Tromix shark brake. Well you can convert it just don't put a pistol grip on it. There are a small handful of stocks out there for AKs that have the grip connected to the butt stock in some manner. Just like during the Federal ban when all the AKs had thumbhole stocks on them. Or you can install a button on the magazine to make it "non detachable" you just have to be creative. Of course do this all within your own personal comfort zone. On 922: Counting parts only comes into play if you put an "evil" non-factory, "non-sporting" feature on the shotgun like a non factory original magazine or a pistol grip. Then you have to have a certain # of American parts. The Saiga 12 from the factory is a sporting firearm so it is exempt. Stick in a 10 round mag now it is a killing machine and is covered under 922r. Makes sense don't it? well put. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Really? hahaha nice.... So, i guess i should put the 10rd mag away until i finish'er up... Man you guys have been great, thanks for all the info.... Im well on my way to gettn things done... I found the number to the local atf office. So if i run into any issues or questions (that i cant find the answer on here), i can always give them a call... is there any problem with putting on a forward handle? Yeap, keep the 10 rnd away till your done. The only potential issue with a VFG(vertical foward grip) is interferance with rock and lock loading. Legaly, no problem at all. Just make sure its either kicked to the side(i can't remember who makes one like this) or far enough foward as to not block you from loading. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Really? hahaha nice.... So, i guess i should put the 10rd mag away until i finish'er up... Man you guys have been great, thanks for all the info.... Im well on my way to gettn things done... I found the number to the local atf office. So if i run into any issues or questions (that i cant find the answer on here), i can always give them a call... is there any problem with putting on a forward handle? Yeap, keep the 10 rnd away till your done. The only potential issue with a VFG(vertical foward grip) is interferance with rock and lock loading. Legaly, no problem at all. Just make sure its either kicked to the side(i can't remember who makes one like this) or far enough foward as to not block you from loading. I gotcha, i saw a cpl pics of some members with them on here and just wanted to check... How do you shoot? Stock to shoulder or hip? or both? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I gotcha, i saw a cpl pics of some members with them on here and just wanted to check... How do you shoot? Stock to shoulder or hip? or both? Firing from the hip can be fun, but its a total waste of ammo, and not my cup of tea. you have sights, use 'em From a military stand point the only time to fire from any position other than from the shoulder would be when being charged on a entry controll point, and being caught off guard(already a fuckup) or in some select mount scenarios, and even then there are different opinions on its effectiveness. This could only ever translate to the civilian world with home defense, and in those situations the target is so close to you you pretty much can't miss... especialy with a scattergun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mcpny 3 Posted March 10, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 I gotcha, i saw a cpl pics of some members with them on here and just wanted to check... How do you shoot? Stock to shoulder or hip? or both? Firing from the hip can be fun, but its a total waste of ammo, and not my cup of tea. you have sights, use 'em From a military stand point the only time to fire from any position other than from the shoulder would be when being charged on a entry controll point, and being caught off guard(already a fuckup) or in some select mount scenarios, and even then there are different opinions on its effectiveness. This could only ever translate to the civilian world with home defense, and in those situations the target is so close to you you pretty much can't miss... especialy with a scattergun. I see... i have a cpl friends that are pretty good at hip shooting long guns, but you're right... i think for now, ill stick with the iron sights.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kflo 0 Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Figured id introduce myself and look for some suggestions and insight on how to get my saiga to its highest potential. My name is Mike, im from Orange County NY. I saw the Saiga 12 on one of the gun auction sites and couldnt look away. I talked with most of the guys at the job and all had nothing but good things to say about Saiga. So, I and a cpl friends from the job started looking around. Saturday morning a friend called and told me he found one and so I took a vacation day for today, went down and bought my first Saiga. I took my baby home! Well, like most I bought mine with the intention of customizing. I thought i had a good grasp on what was legal and illegal but im a little unsure of it now (a lil nervous too). Can anyone offer some suggestions, recommendations?? (remember I live in NY) Any help or guidance would be appreciated... Hey man I am from Orange County, NY also!! Just just want to know if I can convert the SIGA-12 with the pistol grip. If so where do you suggest to get it done. I would prefer to buy it and have it converted all in the same place THEN shipped to NY state and what is the largest round mag I can use. I think it is 10 rounds for New York. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 3, 2010 Report Share Posted July 3, 2010 Hey man I am from Orange County, NY also!! Just just want to know if I can convert the SIGA-12 with the pistol grip. If so where do you suggest to get it done. I would prefer to buy it and have it converted all in the same place THEN shipped to NY state and what is the largest round mag I can use. I think it is 10 rounds for New York. You have to have a thumbhole stock. that said the bulgarian thumbhole is the preferred conversion choice in the evil empire state. Tom Cole at CGW will convert a S-12 for you, and last I knew still had some of those stocks specificly for customers in states like NY. So effectivly thats 2 birds with one stone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
re-model 11 Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Hey man I am from Orange County, NY also!! Just just want to know if I can convert the SIGA-12 with the pistol grip. If so where do you suggest to get it done. I would prefer to buy it and have it converted all in the same place THEN shipped to NY state and what is the largest round mag I can use. I think it is 10 rounds for New York. You have to have a thumbhole stock. that said the bulgarian thumbhole is the preferred conversion choice in the evil empire state. Tom Cole at CGW will convert a S-12 for you, and last I knew still had some of those stocks specificly for customers in states like NY. So effectivly thats 2 birds with one stone. folding stock, and PG are a nogo...I found a skeleton/thumb hole stock for my conversion. also there is nothing regarding the threaded muzzle or flash suppressors on semi auto shotguns. .......... 22. "Assault weapon" means ( a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics: (i) a folding or telescoping stock; (ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; (iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds; (iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine; Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kflo 0 Posted July 4, 2010 Report Share Posted July 4, 2010 Figured id introduce myself and look for some suggestions and insight on how to get my saiga to its highest potential. My name is Mike, im from Orange County NY. I saw the Saiga 12 on one of the gun auction sites and couldnt look away. I talked with most of the guys at the job and all had nothing but good things to say about Saiga. So, I and a cpl friends from the job started looking around. Saturday morning a friend called and told me he found one and so I took a vacation day for today, went down and bought my first Saiga. I took my baby home! Well, like most I bought mine with the intention of customizing. I thought i had a good grasp on what was legal and illegal but im a little unsure of it now (a lil nervous too). Can anyone offer some suggestions, recommendations?? (remember I live in NY) Any help or guidance would be appreciated... Hey man I am from Orange County, NY also!! Just just want to know if I can convert the SIGA-12 with the pistol grip. If so where do you suggest to get it done. I would prefer to buy it and have it converted all in the same place THEN shipped to NY state and what is the largest round mag I can use. I think it is 10 rounds for New York. Can you direct me to Tom Cole and\or CGW. I def would be willing to purchase a 12 from him if he can convert it.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted July 5, 2010 Report Share Posted July 5, 2010 Can you direct me to Tom Cole and\or CGW. I def would be willing to purchase a 12 from him if he can convert it.... They are forum buisness members, and have their own subforum... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showforum=73 Mailing Address and payable to: ------------------------------------ Cadiz Gun Works 117 West Market St Suite B PO Box 126 Cadiz, OH 43907-0126 For inquiries and contact: ----------------------------- CGWsales@gmail.com (740) 942-3175 For FFL transmission: (call ahead via voice) ------------------------ Fax (740)942 3175 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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